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2013-09-25 6:48 AM

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Subject: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

to actually make gains that translate to improved race times?

I am stuck at 1:25-1:30/hundred. 1:25 is a maxed out, feel like I'm going to pee my pants effort. I've been stuck here for a couple of years. Personal life (running kids around, pool is 35 min drive and back pain) made it difficult to swim more than a couple of days a week so I settled.

But things have changed. My back is better, my kids are in school all day and my schedule is more flexible. The pool is still a 35 min drive though. So I'm wondering as off season is approaching, if I really work at it, what will it take to actually improve my race times? Adding another swim? Hammering out hard sets? Both?  I don't want to waste my gas if I'm not going to get results is kind of what I'm thinking.

And if I put in the time and do the hard work how much time are we even talking? 30 seconds or something?



2013-09-25 7:05 AM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by trigal38

to actually make gains that translate to improved race times?

I am stuck at 1:25-1:30/hundred. 1:25 is a maxed out, feel like I'm going to pee my pants effort. I've been stuck here for a couple of years. Personal life (running kids around, pool is 35 min drive and back pain) made it difficult to swim more than a couple of days a week so I settled.

But things have changed. My back is better, my kids are in school all day and my schedule is more flexible. The pool is still a 35 min drive though. So I'm wondering as off season is approaching, if I really work at it, what will it take to actually improve my race times? Adding another swim? Hammering out hard sets? Both?  I don't want to waste my gas if I'm not going to get results is kind of what I'm thinking.

And if I put in the time and do the hard work how much time are we even talking? 30 seconds or something?




Do some math. If you race sprints, knocking off 5 seconds/100 won't mean a lot. It'll mean more in an IM.
2013-09-25 7:39 AM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

If you really want to improve, swim 3-4 times per week and put in a good, long hard effort every time.  The swim you did on Tuesday is good (better if all the 100s were swim or pull but if you have a bad elbow...).  One thing I would ask about those is you say you were doing them in low 1:30s but not what your repeat time was.  The description just says "12 x 100 swim (alt 100 swim / 100 pull) @ 1:50/1:55/2:00/2:10".  If you were holding 1:31-1:33, your repeat time should probably be no more than 1:45 and work on getting it to 1:40.

Good luck!  The improvements can be significant in races.  Not only in your times but also in how fresh you feel when you exit the water and get on your bike.

2013-09-25 7:39 AM
in reply to: VGT

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by VGT

Do some math. If you race sprints, knocking off 5 seconds/100 won't mean a lot. It'll mean more in an IM.


This. Also, If you you gain those 5 sec/100, that might be the max that your body will let you go. You don't want to feel like you have to pee from working out too hard. One thing that could also help you for races is drafting. Learn/practice drafting for your race, you might gain an additional 5-10sec/100 and save a TON of energy which can be used for the bike and run.
2013-09-25 7:39 AM
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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by VGT

Originally posted by trigal38

to actually make gains that translate to improved race times?

I am stuck at 1:25-1:30/hundred. 1:25 is a maxed out, feel like I'm going to pee my pants effort. I've been stuck here for a couple of years. Personal life (running kids around, pool is 35 min drive and back pain) made it difficult to swim more than a couple of days a week so I settled.

But things have changed. My back is better, my kids are in school all day and my schedule is more flexible. The pool is still a 35 min drive though. So I'm wondering as off season is approaching, if I really work at it, what will it take to actually improve my race times? Adding another swim? Hammering out hard sets? Both?  I don't want to waste my gas if I'm not going to get results is kind of what I'm thinking.

And if I put in the time and do the hard work how much time are we even talking? 30 seconds or something?




Do some math. If you race sprints, knocking off 5 seconds/100 won't mean a lot. It'll mean more in an IM.


I agree with this. The first thing you need to decide is is it worth the time and effort to knock another few seconds off of your swim times. I am generally a FOP swimmer but there is always room for improvement. I have been stuck at a 1:24/100 pace for an olympic and 1:28/100 HIM pace for about a year and a half. There are guys that come out of the water in front of me but generally I am in the top 10% or better in my AG and overall when I get out of the water. I could add an extra day or two to my swim training and probably shave a few seconds off my times but this only translates to another minute or two in the course of the race. I could gain a lot more time and AG spots by instead taking that time and concentrating on my run which is generally MOP to BOP for my AG. Good runners can make up 2 minutes per mile on me in a HIM so that extra 2 minutes on the swim is really not worth it.

Your swim times are already stellar for the average AG athlete if you can maintain that 1:25-1:30 pace for the duration of the swim. You could definitely get faster with more time in the pool but with a family and limited time is it really worth it to you?

Edited by clemson05 2013-09-25 7:40 AM
2013-09-25 7:49 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by axteraa

If you really want to improve, swim 3-4 times per week and put in a good, long hard effort every time.  The swim you did on Tuesday is good (better if all the 100s were swim or pull but if you have a bad elbow...).  One thing I would ask about those is you say you were doing them in low 1:30s but not what your repeat time was.  The description just says "12 x 100 swim (alt 100 swim / 100 pull) @ 1:50/1:55/2:00/2:10".  If you were holding 1:31-1:33, your repeat time should probably be no more than 1:45 and work on getting it to 1:40.

Good luck!  The improvements can be significant in races.  Not only in your times but also in how fresh you feel when you exit the water and get on your bike.

 

I went from 1:45/100m for 1500m to 1:29/100m for 1500m with a year of swimming 3x/week for at least 3000m.  This was with a squad so there were faster swimmers to chase and moving up lanes was a big motivation but the key is really putting in the work in the pool.  The squad helped me as if I didn't have anyone to chase, I tended to just settle in at the same pace all the time.

To the bolded - the benefits of improving swimming extend well past the swim leg.  A better swim split will see you out of the water fresher but also on the bike with faster riders which is also beneficial in terms of the legal draft benefit.  Then, you're off the bike with better runners which can lead to improved results due to pacing off better runners.

Shane



2013-09-25 9:05 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by axteraa

If you really want to improve, swim 3-4 times per week and put in a good, long hard effort every time.  The swim you did on Tuesday is good (better if all the 100s were swim or pull but if you have a bad elbow...).  One thing I would ask about those is you say you were doing them in low 1:30s but not what your repeat time was.  The description just says "12 x 100 swim (alt 100 swim / 100 pull) @ 1:50/1:55/2:00/2:10".  If you were holding 1:31-1:33, your repeat time should probably be no more than 1:45 and work on getting it to 1:40.

Good luck!  The improvements can be significant in races.  Not only in your times but also in how fresh you feel when you exit the water and get on your bike.

Elbow feels good today, actually better than it did before the swim so no worries there for next time.

I'll work on the repeat time. I am bad about not paying close enough attention to that. It's a step in the right direction for me to wear a watch at all. Then I have to face reality.... I'm older and slower .

2013-09-25 9:12 AM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71

2013-09-25 9:16 AM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by clemson05
Originally posted by VGT
Originally posted by trigal38

to actually make gains that translate to improved race times?

I am stuck at 1:25-1:30/hundred. 1:25 is a maxed out, feel like I'm going to pee my pants effort. I've been stuck here for a couple of years. Personal life (running kids around, pool is 35 min drive and back pain) made it difficult to swim more than a couple of days a week so I settled.

But things have changed. My back is better, my kids are in school all day and my schedule is more flexible. The pool is still a 35 min drive though. So I'm wondering as off season is approaching, if I really work at it, what will it take to actually improve my race times? Adding another swim? Hammering out hard sets? Both?  I don't want to waste my gas if I'm not going to get results is kind of what I'm thinking.

And if I put in the time and do the hard work how much time are we even talking? 30 seconds or something?

Do some math. If you race sprints, knocking off 5 seconds/100 won't mean a lot. It'll mean more in an IM.
I agree with this. The first thing you need to decide is is it worth the time and effort to knock another few seconds off of your swim times. I am generally a FOP swimmer but there is always room for improvement. I have been stuck at a 1:24/100 pace for an olympic and 1:28/100 HIM pace for about a year and a half. There are guys that come out of the water in front of me but generally I am in the top 10% or better in my AG and overall when I get out of the water. I could add an extra day or two to my swim training and probably shave a few seconds off my times but this only translates to another minute or two in the course of the race. I could gain a lot more time and AG spots by instead taking that time and concentrating on my run which is generally MOP to BOP for my AG. Good runners can make up 2 minutes per mile on me in a HIM so that extra 2 minutes on the swim is really not worth it. Your swim times are already stellar for the average AG athlete if you can maintain that 1:25-1:30 pace for the duration of the swim. You could definitely get faster with more time in the pool but with a family and limited time is it really worth it to you?

Yes, this is the question, that of worth my time.  I've PR'd a few of my race times this past year and when I look at my splits my swim is slower, run is slower, the only thing faster is my bike. So that is now my strength and it is time to work my weaknesses I guess. I've put the time in on the bike and improved. The run is my weakest sport but I am hampered with foot issues year after year after year so I'm happy to run enough to participate at this point.

I guess it's time to swim.

2013-09-25 9:17 AM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
while 1:30ish / 100's means you probably don't have any major flaws in your stroke I would say you still have some gains to be made by perfecting some small flaws. Maybe time for a round of lessons?

Also, most of the above sounds good too
2013-09-25 9:20 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by axteraa

If you really want to improve, swim 3-4 times per week and put in a good, long hard effort every time.  The swim you did on Tuesday is good (better if all the 100s were swim or pull but if you have a bad elbow...).  One thing I would ask about those is you say you were doing them in low 1:30s but not what your repeat time was.  The description just says "12 x 100 swim (alt 100 swim / 100 pull) @ 1:50/1:55/2:00/2:10".  If you were holding 1:31-1:33, your repeat time should probably be no more than 1:45 and work on getting it to 1:40.

Good luck!  The improvements can be significant in races.  Not only in your times but also in how fresh you feel when you exit the water and get on your bike.

 

I went from 1:45/100m for 1500m to 1:29/100m for 1500m with a year of swimming 3x/week for at least 3000m.  This was with a squad so there were faster swimmers to chase and moving up lanes was a big motivation but the key is really putting in the work in the pool.  The squad helped me as if I didn't have anyone to chase, I tended to just settle in at the same pace all the time.

To the bolded - the benefits of improving swimming extend well past the swim leg.  A better swim split will see you out of the water fresher but also on the bike with faster riders which is also beneficial in terms of the legal draft benefit.  Then, you're off the bike with better runners which can lead to improved results due to pacing off better runners.

Shane

I'll be a bit of a downer to this thread.  I swam a lot in the past year or so (over 270,000 meters Jan-Aug), but my times are basically the same, as I've seen little to no speed improvement.  Most who swim 4 days a week at decent volume do get faster, so I'm not sure what I'm missing.

To Shanes second point, I have noticed a definite improvement on the bike/run because my swim fitness was so much better.  I could push harder in both because I was a fitter (but not faster) swimmer.

 



2013-09-25 9:23 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by axteraa

If you really want to improve, swim 3-4 times per week and put in a good, long hard effort every time.  The swim you did on Tuesday is good (better if all the 100s were swim or pull but if you have a bad elbow...).  One thing I would ask about those is you say you were doing them in low 1:30s but not what your repeat time was.  The description just says "12 x 100 swim (alt 100 swim / 100 pull) @ 1:50/1:55/2:00/2:10".  If you were holding 1:31-1:33, your repeat time should probably be no more than 1:45 and work on getting it to 1:40.

Good luck!  The improvements can be significant in races.  Not only in your times but also in how fresh you feel when you exit the water and get on your bike.

 

I went from 1:45/100m for 1500m to 1:29/100m for 1500m with a year of swimming 3x/week for at least 3000m.  This was with a squad so there were faster swimmers to chase and moving up lanes was a big motivation but the key is really putting in the work in the pool.  The squad helped me as if I didn't have anyone to chase, I tended to just settle in at the same pace all the time.

To the bolded - the benefits of improving swimming extend well past the swim leg.  A better swim split will see you out of the water fresher but also on the bike with faster riders which is also beneficial in terms of the legal draft benefit.  Then, you're off the bike with better runners which can lead to improved results due to pacing off better runners.

Shane

I struggle with this also. It is hard to get motivated to swim fast when you're worried about knocking the snorkel out of the old dudes mouth you are sharing the lane with . I used to swim with a class of other triathletes and did put down my fastest times in class and in races. At that time my swim was my best sport of the three.

2013-09-25 9:27 AM
in reply to: trishie

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by trishie

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71

1:25 is my maxed out 100, not what I can hold for a race pace. I am usually middle of the front of the pack for our small local races. I start at the front but the real fish drop me pretty quick Wink. I assumed in a larger race my times would translate to MOP but I could be wrong about that.

2013-09-25 9:27 AM
in reply to: trishie

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by trishie

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71

 

x2....geez I though  my 1:50 was MOP, I guess I am a cellar dweller!!

2013-09-25 9:39 AM
in reply to: trishie

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by trishie

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71




MOP!!!

The AG winner of the Esprit Triathlon and Triathlon de Montreal swam a 1:25 (for Oly distance 1.5km)

Elite AG winner at Toronto Island Sprint swam a 1:30 per 100m over 750m.

Change the thread title to "I am super fast"!!!!

2013-09-25 9:43 AM
in reply to: FELTGood

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......

Agree with the general idea of swimming more, and swimming hard! 

Also, I'm not sure where you live, but look around for open water swim events. You can learn a lot, get in some good training, and usually pay a lot less than a tri! It's hard to practice things like drafting if you're not in a race setting. 



2013-09-25 9:59 AM
in reply to: badmo77a

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by badmo77a
Originally posted by trishie

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71

MOP!!! The AG winner of the Esprit Triathlon and Triathlon de Montreal swam a 1:25 (for Oly distance 1.5km) Elite AG winner at Toronto Island Sprint swam a 1:30 per 100m over 750m. Change the thread title to "I am super fast"!!!!

Or look at the details a little more and what the OP clarified later in the thread. Her tri swim pace has very close to trishie's.

2013-09-25 10:00 AM
in reply to: VGT

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by VGT
Originally posted by trigal38

to actually make gains that translate to improved race times?

I am stuck at 1:25-1:30/hundred. 1:25 is a maxed out, feel like I'm going to pee my pants effort. I've been stuck here for a couple of years. Personal life (running kids around, pool is 35 min drive and back pain) made it difficult to swim more than a couple of days a week so I settled.

But things have changed. My back is better, my kids are in school all day and my schedule is more flexible. The pool is still a 35 min drive though. So I'm wondering as off season is approaching, if I really work at it, what will it take to actually improve my race times? Adding another swim? Hammering out hard sets? Both?  I don't want to waste my gas if I'm not going to get results is kind of what I'm thinking.

And if I put in the time and do the hard work how much time are we even talking? 30 seconds or something?

Do some math. If you race sprints, knocking off 5 seconds/100 won't mean a lot. It'll mean more in an IM.

Given that overall and AG placings are usually determined by seconds in sprints, and more like minutes in an IM, I fail to see how it will mean more an IM.  5 seconds per 100 in a 750m sprint is 38 seconds.  That's pretty significant for a sprint.

If I told you that putting in an extra 100 hours of work in a year would get you 0.05 seconds faster...would it be worth it?  Well, if your name is Usain Bolt...it probably is.

2013-09-25 10:11 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Neil,

I'm a swim coach that works a lot with triathletes and I would be happy to take a look at your workouts. I see a lot of folks in the triathlon community that want to get better at swimming think that all you do is throw a lot of volume at it and you will get better. And to some extent that is correct, but it looks like you have a running background. I've found that people with running backgrounds tend to look at training for distance swimming the same way that you would go about training for distance running. With the amount of time you can typically devote to the pool, it is probably the worst way to go about training for distance swimming.

I would be happy to take a look at your workouts and let you know what I think.

Also, couldn't agree with you more on the transfer of swim fitness to the bike and run. I see it all the time. And you are less likely to get injured in swimming than from the other two.

Tim
2013-09-25 10:19 AM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
If you are 1:30/100 on a couple days a week of swimming, without seeing your stroke, you could probably get a lot better with the right training. The accepted paradigm in the triathlon community is what others have stated which is don't worry about the swim, get through it and spend more time on the bike and run. That's been the accepted wisdom for the past 30 years in the sport. I did my first triathlon in 1988 and it was definitely true then. But as the sport has grown and gotten more competitive there is less and less time to get out of the bike and run to remain at the front of the pack. The real "long hanging fruit" in the sport is in the swim.

And at this point, it isn't so much about time. Based on what you are saying, with some work and a good program you could probably pick up 10 seconds a 100. But more importantly, you would pick up a lot more efficiency. So instead of it taking 30-40 minutes for your HR to come down after the swim, it would be 15-20 minutes and you would feel a lot more relaxed coming out of the water. The swim sets the stage for the rest of the day and as the sport has gotten more competitive it becomes that much more important.

If you want to see what we do on the master swim team that I coach, you can follow our workouts here: www.magnoliamasters.com/swim-efficiency/

Any questions, let me know.

Best regards,

Tim Floyd
2013-09-25 10:21 AM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
When I was a freshman in HS I made taking 7.5 seconds off my 100 time a mission one summer (I wanted to get below 1:00). I swam prolly 5K-7.5K/day 5 days/week. I did get there, but I was 15 yo. I don't know about you but significant gains in speed are harder to come by with age.


2013-09-25 10:58 AM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by trigal38

Originally posted by trishie

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71

1:25 is my maxed out 100, not what I can hold for a race pace. I am usually middle of the front of the pack for our small local races. I start at the front but the real fish drop me pretty quick Wink. I assumed in a larger race my times would translate to MOP but I could be wrong about that.




This is vital information I did not realize when I posted before. Have you done any 500, 1000, or 1500+ time trial swims? If so, what is your average pace or total time on those swims? Or perhaps you know what your average pace is on an olympic tri swim? There is a huge difference between a 1:25-1:30 all out 100 and a sustained pace at those intervals.
2013-09-25 11:16 AM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by clemson05

Originally posted by trigal38

Originally posted by trishie

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71

1:25 is my maxed out 100, not what I can hold for a race pace. I am usually middle of the front of the pack for our small local races. I start at the front but the real fish drop me pretty quick Wink. I assumed in a larger race my times would translate to MOP but I could be wrong about that.




This is vital information I did not realize when I posted before. Have you done any 500, 1000, or 1500+ time trial swims? If so, what is your average pace or total time on those swims? Or perhaps you know what your average pace is on an olympic tri swim? There is a huge difference between a 1:25-1:30 all out 100 and a sustained pace at those intervals.
Olympic pace (Open water) is probably pretty useless as variable as they tend to be from race to race... but yeah, 500/1000/1500 tt's would help.
2013-09-25 12:34 PM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
It you are like most of us and have only xx hrs/week to train for triathlons then I'd say use the time to get faster on the bike.....unless you are already biking 24+ mph. If you can afford to spening another 2 hrs traing do the math and figure out where to spend that time. I looks like you are pretty fast in the water already so you might spend another 2 hrs training a week and knock 30 seconds off your swim time on your next tri. But if you spent an extra 2 hrs on the bike every week.....
2013-09-25 12:47 PM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: What does it take for a MOP swimmer......
Originally posted by clemson05

Originally posted by trigal38

Originally posted by trishie

1:25 is MOP swim?

 

For a local (but big) tri in 2009, my swim was:

swim
time: 29:25
pace: 2.03/100M
place in AG: 28/71

1:25 is my maxed out 100, not what I can hold for a race pace. I am usually middle of the front of the pack for our small local races. I start at the front but the real fish drop me pretty quick Wink. I assumed in a larger race my times would translate to MOP but I could be wrong about that.




This is vital information I did not realize when I posted before. Have you done any 500, 1000, or 1500+ time trial swims? If so, what is your average pace or total time on those swims? Or perhaps you know what your average pace is on an olympic tri swim? There is a huge difference between a 1:25-1:30 all out 100 and a sustained pace at those intervals.


I have nothing substantive to offer, but I wonder if the tri's are pool or open water swims. I know that I do not swim great, but even worse are my navigation and sighting skills.
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author : fivecents
comments : 5
What my first sprint distance triathlon taught me about myself.
date : September 12, 2009
author : Nancy Clark
comments : 0
Maintaining bone health throughout the lifespan should be a priority for all athletes, starting as youngsters and continuing as master's athletes.
 
date : December 27, 2008
author : Tri Swim Coach
comments : 5
Are you a new swimmer starting your triathlon training? Here are some top answers to member questions as you begin your triathlon swim training.
date : August 17, 2007
author : scoli121
comments : 6
I quickly browsed an article in Men's Health that talked about doing a triathlon, and how it wasn't really that hard. With a "tsk!" I quickly turned the page while thinking, "Yeah, right!"
 
date : April 3, 2006
author : gsmacleod
comments : 0
A three month program designed to help beginning swimmers improve technique for a sprint distance race.
date : April 17, 2005
author : Team BT
comments : 0
How to be a BOPer or MOPer in a FOPer world. As a middle of the pack athlete, I have adopted some things I do to assure a victorious feeling at every event I finish.
 
date : August 31, 2004
author : Tri Swim Coach
comments : 0
Most of us in the triathlon world are concerned with more than just fat burning. There are certain situations when it’s appropriate to use fins during a workout.