General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Weight training for improving biking? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 5
 
 
2013-09-28 4:35 PM

User image

New user
47
25
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Subject: Weight training for improving biking?
Biking is my weakest discipline and I am hoping to make big improvements on it during the winter. I was wondering if there is any value to weight training or other exercises (off the bike) to develop and build the muscles necessary for a strong explosive pedal stroke?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated -- i.e. types of exercises, sets, reps, etc.

I realize time spend riding will help develop this as well, but I'm hoping the weight training can help speed that up. I am training for Olympic distance.


2013-09-28 4:40 PM
in reply to: nfp105

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2013-09-28 4:44 PM
in reply to: Fred D

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

Originally posted by Fred D A fellow state college guy, awesome! Unfortunately weights will not help cycling performance. Lots of benefits to weights, but no improvement in cycling ability when studied scientifically. The answer is ride lots and lots. State college is one of the best places in the USA to ride with plenty of challenging terrain, so get out there and get at it.

Fred, do you have a link to the scientific studies?  I'm not arguing, I'd like to read about it. 

2013-09-28 6:41 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

Veteran
294
100100252525
Mission Viejo,
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
I would be interested as well. I totally disagree, there are many benefits to cyclists in regards to strength training and the ability to become a more powerful (faster) cyclist. If nothing else, core training should be done 1-2 times weekly to help improve your riding. Bicycling Magazine has a great article on off season strength training as well as USA Cycling discussing the benefits of strength training. Active.com talks about improving bone density, minimizing muscular imbalances (single leg drills will only do so much), and utilizing plyometrics, box jumps lunges and squats to increase your power on the bike. That is just a few of the zillion articles out there from respected sources on the subject. My thought is the positives far outweigh the negatives, not to mention that strength training, and I have no doubt in my mind, has helped to keep me virtually injury free through the last 3 years of tri training.

Just my opinion.
2013-09-28 6:45 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Fred D A fellow state college guy, awesome! Unfortunately weights will not help cycling performance. Lots of benefits to weights, but no improvement in cycling ability when studied scientifically. The answer is ride lots and lots. State college is one of the best places in the USA to ride with plenty of challenging terrain, so get out there and get at it.

Fred, do you have a link to the scientific studies?  I'm not arguing, I'd like to read about it. 

I found this link, but don't bash me if it doesn't apply.  I just googled for it as I heard from others that the amount of wattage necessary to pedal a bike for a short hard effort (less than 10 minutes) is comparable to how much power is required to walk up stairs.

http://www.letstalkscience.ca/hands-on-activities/mathematics/how-much-power-is-required-to-climb-a-flight-of-stairs.html

At my weight, it's around 400 watts to walk up stairs...that's an all out effort of maybe 2.5 minutes for me on the bike.  If I'm training for something like an Oly where I may target 240 watts for roughly an hour, then the power I need to train for is significantly less than what is required to walk up stairs. 

So I would ask myself the question.  If I already have the muscular strength to push more watts than I could ever imagine holding in a race by simply walking up stairs (not running, or running with a weight vest), then why would I think I need to increase the muscular strength in my legs?  Should I not be focusing on endurance so I can sustain the power I already have but hold it over a longer period of time?

 

 

 

 

2013-09-28 10:07 PM
in reply to: 0

Expert
1187
1000100252525
Ontario
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

Originally posted by Coach Gil I would be interested as well. I totally disagree, there are many benefits to cyclists in regards to strength training and the ability to become a more powerful (faster) cyclist. If nothing else, core training should be done 1-2 times weekly to help improve your riding. Bicycling Magazine has a great article on off season strength training as well as  USA Cycling discussing the benefits of strength training. Active.com talks about improving bone density, minimizing muscular imbalances (single leg drills will only do so much), and utilizing plyometrics, box jumps lunges and squats to increase your power on the bike. That is just a few of the zillion articles out there from respected sources on the subject. My thought is the positives far outweigh the negatives, not to mention that strength training, and I have no doubt in my mind, has helped to keep me virtually injury free through the last 3 years of tri training. Just my opinion.

Not to argue but I don't consider magazines and web sites like active.com to be 'respected sources'.  Yes they write articles but that doesn't mean the information in them has any actual scientific basis and is not just the authors interpretation of something he read elsewhere.

 Edited for spelling



Edited by cathyd 2013-09-28 10:08 PM


2013-09-28 10:29 PM
in reply to: Jason N

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Fred D A fellow state college guy, awesome! Unfortunately weights will not help cycling performance. Lots of benefits to weights, but no improvement in cycling ability when studied scientifically. The answer is ride lots and lots. State college is one of the best places in the USA to ride with plenty of challenging terrain, so get out there and get at it.

Fred, do you have a link to the scientific studies?  I'm not arguing, I'd like to read about it. 

I found this link, but don't bash me if it doesn't apply.  I just googled for it as I heard from others that the amount of wattage necessary to pedal a bike for a short hard effort (less than 10 minutes) is comparable to how much power is required to walk up stairs.

http://www.letstalkscience.ca/hands-on-activities/mathematics/how-much-power-is-required-to-climb-a-flight-of-stairs.html

At my weight, it's around 400 watts to walk up stairs...that's an all out effort of maybe 2.5 minutes for me on the bike.  If I'm training for something like an Oly where I may target 240 watts for roughly an hour, then the power I need to train for is significantly less than what is required to walk up stairs. 

So I would ask myself the question.  If I already have the muscular strength to push more watts than I could ever imagine holding in a race by simply walking up stairs (not running, or running with a weight vest), then why would I think I need to increase the muscular strength in my legs?  Should I not be focusing on endurance so I can sustain the power I already have but hold it over a longer period of time?

 

Except that walking up one flight of stairs takes about 10 seconds and almost anyone can do it.....so in my mind it's absolutely not relevant. 

I'm not saying that weight training will help biking.....but I hear the same thing said about swimming, and baseball, and all kinds of sports.....but then I read interviews with top athletes who say that strength/weight training helped them immensely.

Again, I'm not arguing because I don't know.....but I'm very interested because my kid is getting to the age where we are talking about weight training, and I'm wading through the "knowledge".

2013-09-28 10:54 PM
in reply to: cathyd

Veteran
294
100100252525
Mission Viejo,
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Ok, how about Chris Carmichael, read what he says. Or Tim Crowley BS, CSCS, PES. Read his conclusion in Tri Digest. Or how about Morgan Johnson's article at USA Triathlon! Those are some very well respected opinions. Does it have to be "scientific evidence?" We can both counter each other all day with science for and science against. For every pro, there is a con. Don't strength train, cool by me! I will continue to work it into my schedule, it works for me! I am getting faster every day!
2013-09-29 5:16 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Except that walking up one flight of stairs takes about 10 seconds and almost anyone can do it.....so in my mind it's absolutely not relevant. 

I'm not saying that weight training will help biking.....but I hear the same thing said about swimming, and baseball, and all kinds of sports.....but then I read interviews with top athletes who say that strength/weight training helped them immensely.

Again, I'm not arguing because I don't know.....but I'm very interested because my kid is getting to the age where we are talking about weight training, and I'm wading through the "knowledge".




The key thing with walking up stairs is that pretty much everyone has the leg strength to do that which means that it is well below their 1RM (1 rep max) or they would have to rest between steps. In order to push hard enough (making a few assumptions) to ride at 400W, an athlete only needs to be able to push about 55lbs and if they are able to walk up stairs, this is going to be a very small part of their 1RM.

I have a graph of strength versus endurance in cyclists that I'll try to dig up later today when I get to a computer - it makes it pretty apparent that there is no correlation between strength and endurance in cyclists. I don't know of any studies that are available beyond the abstracts but I will see what I have and if there is anything, pass it along.

One of the problems with will weight training help is whether you are considering a fast twitch sport versus a slow twitch one. In general, fast twitch sports (short bursts lasting 2 minutes or less) will benefit from weight training while slow twitch sports (everything else) may see gains but it won't be as direct. When it comes to elite endurance athletes (and maybe the pointy end of age groupers) then they may see improvements with the added stress of weight training as they are into the range of very little return for their endurance sport training so weight training may help. For those who are coming off the coach, there very well may be a benefit of weight training because something is better than nothing but for those in between, weight training is unlikely to lead to speed improvement although there are other benefits realized through weight training.

Another confounding issue is that weight training for endurance sport is usually prescribed as high rep, low weight and, AFAIK, this has never been shown in the literature to lead to performance improvements. However, doing high weight, low rep work has been shown to provide some marginal improvements so if one is going to weight train, this is the way it should be approached. Also, for running (and in some cases cycling) plyometrics have been shown to improve running economy and for someone who has a deep running base are possibly worth including (assuming one is not easily injured).

Shane
2013-09-29 5:37 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
2013-09-29 5:53 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Not to hijack, but curious about Shane's opinion--would this also apply for a cyclist who is seriously on the lighter side of things and thus inherently limited in absolute power? Joe Friel mentions this in "Triathlete's Training Bible"--he uses a case study of a female client who's about my size (115 pounds) and says she would benefit from strength training to improve power on the bike since her base power simply isn't enough for her to be competitive (can't remember but I think she is a master's AG elite). I'm a good climber so I most have a decent power to weight ratio, but get passed left and right on the flats. Not sure Friel's recommendation is supported by current research, or just his gut feeling as a coach.

I do some strength training but at present it's not directed toward improving bike power. Some core and leg work recommended by a PT to address chronic SI/glute/hamstring issues (which has been very helpful as I'm running almost 100% pain free now). I also do some upper body work but it's more for vanity and feeling stronger than anything else. Plus I think I should for maintaining bone density, as a 40+ female with a small frame. A trainer at our gym has claimed he helped a client (parent of one of my swimmers) vastly improve his bike results with strength training, but I'm reluctant if the research doesn't support it; also afraid of getting injured. The cyclist in question is a big guy who no doubt had quite a bit of power already.


2013-09-29 6:10 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Do you have access to power while you train? If so, there are a couple of things I would check with your power but you are probably best to continue on the path you are on with strength training but knowing that most gains will come from time in the saddle.

Females will almost always have lower absolute power numbers than males and as you've seen, this can allow you to climb well due to good power:weight ratio but will be a disadvantage when it comes to TT or triathlon bike leg performance. In addition to improving fitness, I would also pay attention to your bike setup as TT/tri is mostly about power:CdA.

Shane
2013-09-29 6:30 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
I don't have access to power on my bike here. When I'm at home in Oregon, I sometimes use the tri club computrainer which gives you a power reading. I think my 20-minute test average last winter was 195. (Nearly puked, so I'd say that was close to max effort at the time). I was holding closer to 199-200 but one of the coaches told me I should switch to a harder gear with 5 min. to go and my power really dropped as my legs just couldn't push it; when he walked away I switched back and made it back to a 195 average. I'm more a high cadence/low resistance rider than the others, most of whom are much heavier guys!

I do think there is something with bike setup that needs to be improved. Both of my bikes (a Trek 1.2 here and a 1.5 in the US) are comfortable for long, steady rides, but I suffer as soon as I pick up the pace above about 16 mph (on my bike here) or 18 mph (on my US bike). I think the 1.2 (a size 52 WSD) is a bit small (the 1.5 is a men's 54) and this is affecting my power. I have been fitted to it, with the bars, by our LBS owner and a visiting Trek expert, but it feels a bit cramped on the front end, even in aero. (I'm between 5'7" and 5'8", long arms and legs for my height). Can't ride a tri bike here for safety reasons, but I'm thinking of selling the 1.2 when I move and just going with my 1.5 and maybe getting a tri bike. The 1.2's comfortable; I just don't think it's a fast bike for me.

I know it can't all be my size; some of it must be training/the bike. Many of the women I race in Singapore don't outweigh me, and some are very strong bikers. The best bikers are usually bigger, but I've gotten my butt kicked by some fairly petite women.
2013-09-29 6:33 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2013-09-29 6:47 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2013-09-29 6:58 AM
in reply to: Fred D

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Forgive me my ignorance as I'm much more of a running groupie than a TDF fan, but isn't Froom's strength the climbs? Can he hold his own in a TT on the flat? Presumably he doesn't suck epically at the latter if he won the TDF, but just curious. Also, wouldn't most of the daily stages be longer than the bike leg of most tris, even IM's? Maybe that would give some advantage to a lighter athlete.

But you're right, I don't think he hits the weight room much. It's the training, and the bike and....I don't want to speculate what else.


2013-09-29 7:10 AM
in reply to: 0

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.

Edited by Fred D 2013-09-29 7:16 AM
2013-09-29 7:15 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2013-09-29 7:24 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner


754
5001001002525
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Froome can TT, but he can't sprint. He has no explosive power.

Anyway, cycling in my main sport. I don't know anyone who has seen climbing ability increased by weight lifting, but as a woman, I saw a definite increase in my endurance when I started doing upper body and core strength training. I saw the improvement both in my running and cycling. The improvement was surprisingly fast, too. Just a couple weeks of weight training, and I had better endurance and felt better the next day because my upper body wasn't fatigued.
2013-09-29 7:29 AM
in reply to: happyscientist

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
Sigh...I have noticed this in swimming (I cramp/fatigue less in long workouts than before I started upper body and core work) but never on a bike. I get tired just looking at my bike, unless we're climbing a hill, 'cause I'm psyched that I'm passing people. I've seen Quintana--we have pretty similar builds. I think what I need is an uphill bike leg. (Alpe de Huez Tri......on my bucket list!)
2013-09-29 7:52 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.


2013-09-29 8:30 AM
in reply to: happyscientist

Bronze member
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

Originally posted by happyscientist Froome can TT, but he can't sprint. He has no explosive power. Anyway, cycling in my main sport. I don't know anyone who has seen climbing ability increased by weight lifting, but as a woman, I saw a definite increase in my endurance when I started doing upper body and core strength training. I saw the improvement both in my running and cycling. The improvement was surprisingly fast, too. Just a couple weeks of weight training, and I had better endurance and felt better the next day because my upper body wasn't fatigued.

Just curious what distance events you were/are training for?

2013-09-29 12:29 PM
in reply to: nfp105

New user
47
25
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?
All -- thanks for the spirited debate. I will continue building the miles and time in the saddle working on technique. I only started biking in July, so there is plenty of improvement to go. Huge improvements since day 1.

I will stick with the limited weight training of the entire body (arms, shoulders, back, chest, abs, legs in one workout) that I have been doing and is done with higher reps, lower weight, and little rest between sets (about 15-30 seconds). Mostly it has been for toning, muscle strength maintenance, and an added form of exercise. I am not looking to bulk up.

Again thanks for the advice -- I will be posting additional questions here over the months. This is a great site, tons of information to learn and pick up.

-Nikos


2013-09-29 9:03 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner

Master
2380
2000100100100252525
Beijing
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

Originally posted by Hot Runner I don't have access to power on my bike here. When I'm at home in Oregon, I sometimes use the tri club computrainer which gives you a power reading. I think my 20-minute test average last winter was 195. (Nearly puked, so I'd say that was close to max effort at the time). I was holding closer to 199-200 but one of the coaches told me I should switch to a harder gear with 5 min. to go and my power really dropped as my legs just couldn't push it; when he walked away I switched back and made it back to a 195 average. I'm more a high cadence/low resistance rider than the others, most of whom are much heavier guys! I do think there is something with bike setup that needs to be improved. Both of my bikes (a Trek 1.2 here and a 1.5 in the US) are comfortable for long, steady rides, but I suffer as soon as I pick up the pace above about 16 mph (on my bike here) or 18 mph (on my US bike). I think the 1.2 (a size 52 WSD) is a bit small (the 1.5 is a men's 54) and this is affecting my power. I have been fitted to it, with the bars, by our LBS owner and a visiting Trek expert, but it feels a bit cramped on the front end, even in aero. (I'm between 5'7" and 5'8", long arms and legs for my height). Can't ride a tri bike here for safety reasons, but I'm thinking of selling the 1.2 when I move and just going with my 1.5 and maybe getting a tri bike. The 1.2's comfortable; I just don't think it's a fast bike for me. I know it can't all be my size; some of it must be training/the bike. Many of the women I race in Singapore don't outweigh me, and some are very strong bikers. The best bikers are usually bigger, but I've gotten my butt kicked by some fairly petite women.

This hits on something that should be discussed more when talking about cycling power:  gearing.

Are the cranks/chainrings/cassettes different on your bikes?  That could be one reason you do better on one bike than the other.

Power consists of 2 things:  Torque (strength) and speed (cadence)

Even if you've got a great Aerobic system, if you're limited in torque (not enough leg strength to spin the gears you have)  or limited in speed (can't spin the gears fast enough to make the required power) ... you're not going to be doing your best on the bike. 

Clearly, being stronger (without increasing your bodyweight) is almost always an advantage.  If you've got no torque available, your only option is to drop gears and try to "spin it out" when you encounter a climb or a headwind. There is a practical limit to cadence... if you have to drop too many gears to stay in your optimal "torque output range" ... you might not be able to increase cadence to match your previous power output.

It's also misleading to compare your average triathlete to the best cyclists in the world.   While the data shows "no correlation between strength and endurance" for these elite athletes... we also forget that they get to ride a different bike every day in their competitions, bikes that are dialed in EXACTLY to match the terrain, and the individual output of the rider. 

Your average "weekend warrior" probably doesn't have that luxury, and could likely benefit (at least a little) from increased strength to overcome the requisite "compromise design" of their equipment.

All this is NOT to say that one will gain bike speed just by weight training.  As they say in car racing: "There's no substitute for cubic inches"  We can say "There's no substitute for T.I.T.S"  I just think there's more potential for benefit from strength training (for your average triathlete) than is being indicated here.  JM2C, YMMV.

 

 

2013-09-29 9:12 PM
in reply to: nfp105

Master
2380
2000100100100252525
Beijing
Subject: RE: Weight training for improving biking?

Originally posted by nfp105 All -- thanks for the spirited debate. I will continue building the miles and time in the saddle working on technique. I only started biking in July, so there is plenty of improvement to go. Huge improvements since day 1. I will stick with the limited weight training of the entire body (arms, shoulders, back, chest, abs, legs in one workout) that I have been doing and is done with higher reps, lower weight, and little rest between sets (about 15-30 seconds). Mostly it has been for toning, muscle strength maintenance, and an added form of exercise. I am not looking to bulk up. Again thanks for the advice -- I will be posting additional questions here over the months. This is a great site, tons of information to learn and pick up. -Nikos

 

To address your question directly:  Over the past few months I've been exclusively weight training.  I'm "on a break" from triathlon for a while.  Actually, I was "on a break" from everything for a while, and decided to start lifting in order to restore some fitness.

I've been lifting weights roughly 3x a week since June.   I focus on 5 core exercises:  Squats, Bench Press, Overhead Press, Barbell Row and Deadlift.   The overall change in my body shape, and strength, has been fairly dramatic.  I would focus on fewer reps, higher weights if you want to build strength.   I don't know if you're doing isolation work or not, but I would dump it if you are.  Focus on compound movements that engage your entire core.  This will give you more "bang for your buck" in the time and intensity of your workouts, and leave you more time for tri training.

Finally, you won't "bulk up" unless you're eating a caloric excess, or if you've never really done any strength training before (some people experience "newbie gains" when they start lifting heavy weights)

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Weight training for improving biking? Rss Feed  
 
 
of 5
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Weight training for swimming with free weights?

Started by b2run
Views: 1267 Posts: 5

2013-02-06 12:00 AM AdventureBear

Need help training/improving bike times

Started by gti123
Views: 673 Posts: 5

2012-03-26 1:40 PM MCA

Bike weight vs Total weight (rider/bike/gear)

Started by Garceau
Views: 2017 Posts: 9

2010-03-28 1:57 PM TriMyBest

New bike thoughts....bike Weight vs body weight Pages: 1 2

Started by KathyG
Views: 2602 Posts: 34

2006-04-27 5:02 PM ChuckyFinster

Weight training for biking

Started by ropkins
Views: 1187 Posts: 15

2004-12-08 8:02 AM Torgo
RELATED ARTICLES
date : March 12, 2013
author : mistymills
comments : 5
Dog training techniques have surprising parallels to triathlon training and race preparation. All the lessons I THOUGHT were for my dogs started seeming very applicable to me! Here's what I learned.
 
date : January 25, 2013
author : mikericci
comments : 0
Is there any point in time of a training plan where a "big week" would be most optimal? This article discusses sports rotation and other high volume week options to improve.
date : October 5, 2007
author : Tri Swim Coach
comments : 0
Discussions on bilateral breathing, working on balance drills, the importance of interval training to improve speed, the importance of kicking and sighting in open water.
 
date : May 22, 2007
author : acbadger
comments : 0
Are you getting adequate rest after your workouts? Rest and over-training effects on weight loss, weight gain.
date : May 11, 2007
author : Coach AJ
comments : 0
Discussions on bricks, bike position, blisters, bike fit, the walk/run method, improving run times, key sessions, training post ITBS, HR and cadence, wetsuits and eating to not bonk
 
date : March 21, 2007
author : acbadger
comments : 2
Interval training for weight loss. Weight training for weight loss. These interval workouts can be done in 15 to 20 minutes and have huge caloric expenditures for those who are crunched for time.
date : June 22, 2006
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Seated Biceps Curl - Dumbbell strength exercise instruction with picture and video.
 
date : December 27, 2004
author : gsmacleod
comments : 1
I have seen very athletically talented teams fall apart in clutch situations and much less gifted teams play well above their ability!