General Discussion Triathlon Talk » The kona goal ? Out of reach ? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 10
 
 
2013-10-13 5:22 PM

Veteran
325
10010010025
Subject: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Hi there

After watching some of kona live yesterday and hearing some people had tried/waited for 15 years to race kona and finally got there I ask the question , do most/many who would love to race kona accept it's out of reach or believe anything is possible ?

How long are people prepared to wait to achieve the goal , I guess for most people who are not able to meet a race time for qualification only have the lottery ? Or unless you are famous and swear like a F%#king mad man

Your thoughts on kona and entry. . ......


2013-10-13 5:54 PM
in reply to: Bigdave001

User image


489
100100100100252525
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
It's absolutely not out of reach for anybody. Just depends how much you're willing to sacrifice to get there and how much money you've got.

When I say sacrifice - the nature of most long distance triathletes is that they've got a demanding career and a family they love. I'm not sure those two things are compatible with Kona qualification for most people. Something probably has to give unless perhaps your partner is also an athlete, your job is very flexible and you're very efficient.

In addition to that, long distance is more than 'just' the training - it's a 24 hour pursuit including proper focus on nutrition, recovery, mental training and probably a few other things.

Kona qualification is from the fastest age group athletes in each ironman in the world who can afford to take their slot. There are websites now that predict what sort of times are required for each age group in each ironman around the world.

But if anyone wants it enough - it's theirs for the taking.
2013-10-13 6:05 PM
in reply to: Bigdave001

Veteran
363
1001001002525
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Don't forget about legacy slots, you only have to complete 12 IMs and you can do Kona.
The lottery or legacy slot are the only when I'll be getting there.
2013-10-13 6:18 PM
in reply to: Rover24

User image

Extreme Veteran
792
500100100252525
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
I think it is very safe to say that a good percentage of triathletes are reaching for a goal that is not able to be accomplished. Granted, the opportunity is there for everybody, but I have seen more than my share of Mid-life crisis "2 years to Kona" guys who think that just because they sign up for an ironman race they deserve to go to Kona and have their own segment on NBC.

The opportunity is there for everybody, however a fast majority of people would rather underestimate their competition and not put in the work necessary for it. You don't just wake up one day and say, "I'm going to be an Olympic Bobsledder"....yet people seem to do that with Ironman.

Most people completely overlook the dedication that an athlete requires to make it to Kona.

There is always the lottery, but ask any other athlete about "Leaving it to chance"...
2013-10-13 6:40 PM
in reply to: Bigdave001

User image

Champion
19812
50005000500020002000500100100100
MA
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

There are ways to get there....but to qualify has become increasingly difficult. With more IMs slots per race are down which reduces slots per AG. Many NA races had 75 slots now have 50. First year IMs often have higher than normal number of slots often 100 which is a big draw to KQ seekers.

Best way to get there was to pick good parents that pass on their good genes.

I see folks that are fast out the gate (from when they start doing tris) and work hard and consistently can qualify.

Legacy and lottery are the way that normal folks can get to Kona both of which are expensive and hard to do. I hate to think how much doing 12 IMs would cost for an average IM triathlete....so cost is a limitor for many.

2013-10-13 9:00 PM
in reply to: Bigdave001

User image

Veteran
2297
2000100100252525
Great White North
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
plenty more who din't have the cash to go and passed at rolldown.


2013-10-13 9:05 PM
in reply to: Bigdave001

User image

Pro
5361
50001001001002525
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

plan on making it your life/lifestyle for a few years.

or getting lucky and getting in on the lottery.

it's pretty competitive these days.  

2013-10-13 9:31 PM
in reply to: Dan-L

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Dan-L  But if anyone wants it enough - it's theirs for the taking.

No, that's not true.

You can want it more than anything in the world, but if you don't have enough genetics, or money, you're not going. Period.

2013-10-13 10:13 PM
in reply to: #4876279

User image

Expert
3145
2000100010025
Scottsdale, AZ
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Three year plan here and I'll sacrifice what it takes. Good thing I'm single, normal job and kid free. But with regards to the question, no its not attainable anymore for most, at least not if you're falling into the 30 to 45 age categories. Those guys are swimming mid 50s, riding mid to low 4s and running at around or below 3. You don't wake up one day and realistically hit that in a year or two.
2013-10-13 10:37 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Elite
4435
2000200010010010010025
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Dan-L  But if anyone wants it enough - it's theirs for the taking.

No, that's not true.

You can want it more than anything in the world, but if you don't have enough genetics, or money, you're not going. Period.

I tend to agree I thought about it today if I gave up work got the best coaching and got my kid adopted then maybe but even then probably not. And I don't care I'm going to spectate next year trip of a lifetime.
2013-10-13 10:55 PM
in reply to: lifejustice

User image

New user
33
25
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Originally posted by lifejustice

You don't just wake up one day and say, "I'm going to be an Olympic Bobsledder"...




They did in Cool Runnings. Its just that easy.


2013-10-14 4:56 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image


489
100100100100252525
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Dan-L  But if anyone wants it enough - it's theirs for the taking.

No, that's not true.

You can want it more than anything in the world, but if you don't have enough genetics, or money, you're not going. Period.




I’ll respectfully disagree with the genetics part (can’t argue about the cash!) I don’t think genetics matter for age group ironman athletes looking to qualify for Kona. They matter in Olympic finals and in genuine World Championship competitions (ie; only the best in the world can take part, not the best in the world for various different age brackets.

There’s a fantastic book by Matthew Syed called “Bounce: The myth of talent and the power of practice”. That makes the argument against genetics far better than I ever could. I really urge anyone to read it as it gives an amazing insight into what it really took to make the greatest in all kinds of pursuits including examples of those who were labelled ‘gifted’. Turns out they all just started young and had great coaches (time alone isn’t enough, focussed time with a goal and utter determination)

I maintain that if you can afford it, you’re willing to sacrifice and you have guidance from an experienced/qualified person on what to do and when to do it – anyone can get to the Kona start line.
2013-10-14 7:02 AM
in reply to: Dan-L

User image

Champion
7136
5000200010025
Knoxville area
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Here's a question...

is motivation, or the willingness to suffer for that matter, genetic?
2013-10-14 7:09 AM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

Master
1946
100050010010010010025
Memphis, TN
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
When I got into multisport a good friend who has done 3 IM's told me that you can have IM but take your full time job, family, and IM.... pick two.

You just can't have it all in this world. If you have a job where it's not a 9-5 and a very understanding family or you are an insomniac then go for it. I'd like to do a full IM but don't have the time and I push my limits with my wife's generosity as it is.

To qualify for Kona? That would be even worse.

I'm not sure it can be attained by everybody. Maybe you can but at what cost?
2013-10-14 7:18 AM
in reply to: Dan-L

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Originally posted by Dan-L

But if anyone wants it enough - it's theirs for the taking.



By lottery or luck, maybe
By legacy, yes, with time many if not most can do 12 IMs

to qualify via a top finish in one's AG, this is not for just 'anyone's for the taking'.
To say it is shows one doesn't know what it takes to qualify in some of the AGs out there.
2013-10-14 7:47 AM
in reply to: Dan-L

User image

Master
2725
200050010010025
Washington, DC Metro
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Dan-L
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Dan-L  But if anyone wants it enough - it's theirs for the taking.

No, that's not true.

You can want it more than anything in the world, but if you don't have enough genetics, or money, you're not going. Period.

I’ll respectfully disagree with the genetics part (can’t argue about the cash!) I don’t think genetics matter for age group ironman athletes looking to qualify for Kona. They matter in Olympic finals and in genuine World Championship competitions (ie; only the best in the world can take part, not the best in the world for various different age brackets. There’s a fantastic book by Matthew Syed called “Bounce: The myth of talent and the power of practice”. That makes the argument against genetics far better than I ever could. I really urge anyone to read it as it gives an amazing insight into what it really took to make the greatest in all kinds of pursuits including examples of those who were labelled ‘gifted’. Turns out they all just started young and had great coaches (time alone isn’t enough, focussed time with a goal and utter determination) I maintain that if you can afford it, you’re willing to sacrifice and you have guidance from an experienced/qualified person on what to do and when to do it – anyone can get to the Kona start line.

Isn't this really the same thing?  If I'm the "best in the world" in the 40-45 AG how is someone else in the same AG going to be better than me with just more practice?  Your points are sort of counter intuitive.  



2013-10-14 7:47 AM
in reply to: Bigdave001

User image

Champion
7542
5000200050025
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Bronze member
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Not as "out of reach" as most of us imagine, but that doesn't mean we can achieve it either.

How long are people prepared to wait to achieve the goal


People who spend their life "waiting" to achieve that (or any) goal won't ever get there! People do spend years trying to get there, some successfully, some not.

If you want to achieve some goal, get busy making it happen! It isn't entirely desire. Genetics make a difference, especially at the pointy end of the distribution which is what we're talking about here. I've done 2 IM's, finishing in 13:38 and 12:43. I know I'm capable of <12:00 with proper training and race-day conditions. Now is <12 the same as 10:10 (which is what I'd have to target for a chance at Kona)? Not at all. Again, with the training I've done, <12 is possible. I could hire a coach and make a few other lifestyle changes to improve my training at realistically get close to 10:30 in a couple years, but lopping off those last 20 minutes to KQ gets increasingly difficult.



2013-10-14 8:22 AM
in reply to: thebigb

User image

Member
1748
100050010010025
Exton, PA
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Originally posted by thebigb

Three year plan here and I'll sacrifice what it takes. Good thing I'm single, normal job and kid free. But with regards to the question, no its not attainable anymore for most, at least not if you're falling into the 30 to 45 age categories. Those guys are swimming mid 50s, riding mid to low 4s and running at around or below 3. You don't wake up one day and realistically hit that in a year or two.


55 min
+
4hr 30 min
+
3hr

=8hr 25 mins + 10 mins for T1/T2 your at 8hrs 35mins

This is elite status not AG,.
If you look at people who qualified in AG you would be more like 1 hr swim --- 5hr bike--- 3 1/2 - 4 hr run
2013-10-14 8:24 AM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Master
1927
100050010010010010025
Guilford, CT
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by Dan-L

But if anyone wants it enough - it's theirs for the taking.



By lottery or luck, maybe
By legacy, yes, with time many if not most can do 12 IMs

to qualify via a top finish in one's AG, this is not for just 'anyone's for the taking'.
To say it is shows one doesn't know what it takes to qualify in some of the AGs out there.


This pretty much sums it up for me. Not anyone can do it and I know plenty of people that train 10+hrs a week consistently for a few years and don't come close. Those that have their life setup in a flexible way to achieve the goal + have the money to drop $15,000 on a KQ year doing two ironmans + have the innate ability. You don't have to be an all american athlete but you have to be somewhat athletic which weeds out a lot of people. Some things come easier for people and they are working just as hard to get there. They are your competition.

It is easy for a middle aged male to go from 13 to 11 hours or so with some dedicated work, but to go on a KQ run up against the points end of the field...to say anyone can do it shows a lack of respect and understanding.

Swim - 1hr give or take a couple minutes: Most people can get there swim in order I think with proper work and it isn't the biggest piece of the puzzle.
Bike - People used to say FTP of 4.0 w/kg, but I'd argue over the past couple years it is getting closer to 4.2 w/kg unless you have a great run in your pocket.
Run - Low 1:2x for 13.1 range

That is sort of the base fitness in my mind and then beyond that you have to actually be able to execute well, have a good day and have the proper endurance etc...It is one thing to have a 4 w/kg FTP but another to ride for 5 hours and then run...I'm sure you can poke some holes in that stuff above because I really just estimated based on everything I've seen/read/heard over the past few years.

There are a couple of well thought out blog posts on this though if you want to dive in a little more.

Kind of long but I've thought about this quite a bit in the past when I conceded that with two little girls, a family and work that I just didn't have the time and degree of selfishness necessary to do it. Saying 'selfish' is a little harsh but really what else is it when you are out training 14hrs a week all summer.
2013-10-14 9:17 AM
in reply to: Dan-L

User image

Master
3205
20001000100100
ann arbor, michigan
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Dan-L  But if anyone wants it enough - it's theirs for the taking.

No, that's not true.

You can want it more than anything in the world, but if you don't have enough genetics, or money, you're not going. Period.




I’ll respectfully disagree with the genetics part (can’t argue about the cash!) I don’t think genetics matter for age group ironman athletes looking to qualify for Kona. They matter in Olympic finals and in genuine World Championship competitions (ie; only the best in the world can take part, not the best in the world for various different age brackets.

There’s a fantastic book by Matthew Syed called “Bounce: The myth of talent and the power of practice”. That makes the argument against genetics far better than I ever could. I really urge anyone to read it as it gives an amazing insight into what it really took to make the greatest in all kinds of pursuits including examples of those who were labelled ‘gifted’. Turns out they all just started young and had great coaches (time alone isn’t enough, focussed time with a goal and utter determination)

I maintain that if you can afford it, you’re willing to sacrifice and you have guidance from an experienced/qualified person on what to do and when to do it – anyone can get to the Kona start line.



If you really believe that anyone can get to the Kona start line you are one of two things: 1. One of those guys who is so fast right out of the box that they can't understand why other people don't just work harder and get fast like you......... (my son is like this with math, he is so good at math that he can't understand why math isn't easy for everyone) or 2. Very new to the sport and haven't yet experienced how pointy the pointy end really is.

Let me guarantee you that there are people who could devote the rest of their life to triathlon training and never sniff a Kona qualification slot.

I have gotten to the point where I consistently finish in the top 5% of almost every race. I have worked my rear end off to get there. Unfortunately I need to be top 1% to qualify and the distance between the 5th percentile and the 1st percentile is pretty far.

I will keep working but I have come to realize that it may never happen. Good thing that I enjoy triathlon and training.
2013-10-14 9:20 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

User image


928
50010010010010025
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
If truly anyone could do it, then why would it be special?

I agree that not everyone who simply decides to do it will be able to qualify- in addition to dedicated training it will take talent and a bit of luck.


2013-10-14 9:24 AM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

User image

Champion
7136
5000200010025
Knoxville area
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
I will say I think the number of people who *could* make it is higher than most of these threads let on.

The number of people who would truly be willing to be that dedicated/obsessed when it came down to it is much lower than these threads let on.
2013-10-14 9:32 AM
in reply to: Dan-L

User image

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Originally posted by Dan-L

I’ll respectfully disagree with the genetics part (can’t argue about the cash!) I don’t think genetics matter for age group ironman athletes looking to qualify for Kona. They matter in Olympic finals and in genuine World Championship competitions (ie; only the best in the world can take part, not the best in the world for various different age brackets.


You are seriously underestimating what it takes to KQ in most age groups. To discount talent does a disservice to those who work hard but will only KQ if they outlive their competition.

There’s a fantastic book by Matthew Syed called “Bounce: The myth of talent and the power of practice”. That makes the argument against genetics far better than I ever could. I really urge anyone to read it as it gives an amazing insight into what it really took to make the greatest in all kinds of pursuits including examples of those who were labelled ‘gifted’. Turns out they all just started young and had great coaches (time alone isn’t enough, focussed time with a goal and utter determination)


Syed, like Gladwell, seriously overstates the importance of 10 000 hours while understating the importance of genetics. It is an easy trap to fall into as it is usually presented as an either/or strawman; either you are great because of genetics or because of hard work. Of course hard work is critical but to discount genetic gifts paints an incomplete picture.

I maintain that if you can afford it, you’re willing to sacrifice and you have guidance from an experienced/qualified person on what to do and when to do it – anyone can get to the Kona start line.


On the men's side, in the main age groups, a KQ will be a 2:05 or faster oly (and it gets faster every year) and while a 2:05 is well back from elite, it requires some genetic talent for endurance sport. This does not mean those with talent don't have to work but that talent is an important consideration as well.

Shane
2013-10-14 9:37 AM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

User image


489
100100100100252525
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?
Originally posted by Leegoocrap

Here's a question...

is motivation, or the willingness to suffer for that matter, genetic?


Love that question.

I don’t really have an answer for the ‘no you can’t’, ‘you don’t understand the sport’ crowd. It’s a round robin argument that doesn’t get anywhere. I’ve been doing triathlons for a long time including three IM distance races. It’s not a question of not understanding what it takes, my central point is that it’s not genetics that isn’t the differentiator between those one the start line and those that aren’t.

I reckon I can deliver a Kona qualifying time in three years and I definitely have no genetic gifts! Let’s dig the thread out this time in 2016 and see how it went.
2013-10-14 9:45 AM
in reply to: Dan-L

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: The kona goal ? Out of reach ?

Originally posted by Dan-L
Originally posted by Leegoocrap Here's a question... is motivation, or the willingness to suffer for that matter, genetic?
Love that question. I don’t really have an answer for the ‘no you can’t’, ‘you don’t understand the sport’ crowd. It’s a round robin argument that doesn’t get anywhere. I’ve been doing triathlons for a long time including three IM distance races. It’s not a question of not understanding what it takes, my central point is that it’s not genetics that isn’t the differentiator between those one the start line and those that aren’t. I reckon I can deliver a Kona qualifying time in three years and I definitely have no genetic gifts! Let’s dig the thread out this time in 2016 and see how it went.

What are your times now for Oly, HIM, and IM?  What do you think it will take to KQ in three years?

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » The kona goal ? Out of reach ? Rss Feed  
 
 
of 10