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2013-10-23 2:05 AM

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Subject: Rookie biker question
Just started training for my first triathlon. My goal is to do an Ironman 70.3 mid april 2014. I believe I have the swimming and running somewhat under control but I am a complete newbie in cycling.
First session on bike yesterday, indoor on trainer.

Did 40 minutes, my average cadence was 73, avg speed about 22km/h.
This was at light resistance and "light" gears, but felt comfortable - although I certainly would not be able to go any faster I was also able to maintain this quite well.

I have read about bicycle training and most articles seem to suggest that a cadence of around 90-95 is optimal. If I want to get anything near 90-95 now I would have to bike with almost no resistance and "light" gears.

So my question, for a rookie, should I aim to train with high cadence (90-95) and increase the resistance/power as I get better.
Or should I continue with my "comfort" cadence/resistance now and try to increase the cadence while maintaining the resistance?


2013-10-23 5:02 AM
in reply to: #4882657

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
Get used to spinning at a cadence of around 90.

It's generally most efficient.
2013-10-23 6:44 AM
in reply to: knuta99

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
To quote a very wise man, "cadence is a red herring."

70 is on the lower end of where most cyclists will eventually settle, there are those who can be quite successful with a cadence in this range. IIWY I would focus on doing the bulk of cycling workouts at a cadence that feels right; this will vary based on conditions and you may find there are times that 70 feels just right and others where 80 might be better.

In addition, I would spend some time doing efforts at higher cadence than you are comfortable with as this will help you settle into the cadence that is right for you. Since you are comfortable at 70, I would focus on higher cadences, maybe something like:

3:00 at 80
2:00 at 90
1:00 at 100
:30 spin out
3:30 spin at comfortable cadence
Repeat

What will happen as you gain experience is that the cadence that you select for given conditions will change and you will likely find that your average cadence will slowly drift up as you cycle more.

Research suggests that cyclists will naturally settle into the cadence that is most economical for the given situation so I would focus on just riding and letting the cadence be where it feels right.

Shane
2013-10-23 7:12 AM
in reply to: knuta99

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
You're not doing a heck of a lot of good if you plan to continue working in a 'comfort' zone. The whole point is to increase ability through training, which requires pushing your comfort zone up and up. That's kind of obvious I suppose, but maybe it isn't.

Cadence in and of itself doesn't tell you a lot. Bike 'speed' on a trainer is complete hogwash. However, even being hogwash, 22kmh is not a workout. Maybe if you did it for several hours, but not 40 minutes. I'm curious why you think you couldn't go any 'faster' (let's translate this to 'harder' from now on). A trainer workout should be HARD. You should NEED a strong fan, not just have one nearby. You should sweat buckets. You should be ready to fall off the bike when you're done. It is going to be "painful" at first. Again in quotes, because your definition of pain will change significantly. What seems like pain right now isn't really, it's discomfort, and there's a chasm of difference between pain and discomfort. Generally you should focus on going harder and harder right now. I can't recommend trainerroad.com enough for all levels of cycling, please check that out. You'll have to provide the initiative, but TR provides everything else you need to get better on the bike. Give it a try!
2013-10-23 7:50 AM
in reply to: knuta99

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
Think back to the first time you went to the pool, and swam 300 yards . . .
Or the first time you went out running, ran half a mile, and then just about passed out . . .

That's where you are on the bike. Trainer wheel speed is a factor of the resistance of the trainer, and doesn't mean anything other than a rough comparison to the same bike on the same wheel on the same trainer with the same tire pressure.

Trainer Road is awesome, and with just a cheap speed and cadence sensor, you can get some pretty good and consistence (if not accurate) virtual power estimates that can guide your training.

Get ready for boredom, sweet, and pain - all for the glory of finishing your 70.3.
2013-10-23 8:46 AM
in reply to: knuta99

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question

Originally posted by knuta99

 I believe I have the swimming and running somewhat under control

 

What makes you say this?

 

Originally posted by knuta99

 So my question, for a rookie, should I aim to train with high cadence (90-95) and increase the resistance/power as I get better. Or should I continue with my "comfort" cadence/resistance now and try to increase the cadence while maintaining the resistance?

In the words of Eddie Mercury, or was it Eddy Merckx.... get on your bike and ride. IMO, the best thing a new cyclist can do is ride often. Increase distance and effort over time.

 

 



2013-10-23 9:43 AM
in reply to: mrbbrad

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
Since you are relatively new at the bike and have signed up for a HIM in April, it would seem that your focus should be building endurance versus top end speed. I may be incorrect and others will chime in, but focusing on relatively short workouts at high rates of intensity will not assist you in building endurance required for a HIM.

An effective way to build endurance is to determine your heart rate zones. Once established, you can then have training sessions focusing on staying in specific zones designed to build endurance. I am not sure if you have access to a heart rate monitor etc., or another way to do lactate threshold testing, but if you do, this is the way to determine heart rate zones.

Building a base takes some time, which you will need to do for your HIM. Once you have an adequate base, you can then focus on building more top end speed.
2013-10-23 9:52 AM
in reply to: mrbbrad

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question

Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by knuta99

 I believe I have the swimming and running somewhat under control

 What makes you say this?

Curious about that one too. Just checking as some go in not really realizing what that might be.

2013-10-23 9:56 AM
in reply to: ccmpsyd

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question

Originally posted by ccmpsyd Since you are relatively new at the bike and have signed up for a HIM in April, it would seem that your focus should be building endurance versus top end speed. I may be incorrect and others will chime in, but focusing on relatively short workouts at high rates of intensity will not assist you in building endurance required for a HIM. An effective way to build endurance is to determine your heart rate zones. Once established, you can then have training sessions focusing on staying in specific zones designed to build endurance. I am not sure if you have access to a heart rate monitor etc., or another way to do lactate threshold testing, but if you do, this is the way to determine heart rate zones. Building a base takes some time, which you will need to do for your HIM. Once you have an adequate base, you can then focus on building more top end speed.

Depends on what you mean by "short" and "top end". Building up true sprint ability is a waste of time here, but working up at the higher end of the aerobic zone is not. It's actually quite beneficial especially for folks who are more time limited as basically every age-grouper in existence tends to be. Building a base is not just LSD, but working various aspects to have a well rounded base of fitness.

2013-10-23 10:06 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by ccmpsyd Since you are relatively new at the bike and have signed up for a HIM in April, it would seem that your focus should be building endurance versus top end speed. I may be incorrect and others will chime in, but focusing on relatively short workouts at high rates of intensity will not assist you in building endurance required for a HIM. An effective way to build endurance is to determine your heart rate zones. Once established, you can then have training sessions focusing on staying in specific zones designed to build endurance. I am not sure if you have access to a heart rate monitor etc., or another way to do lactate threshold testing, but if you do, this is the way to determine heart rate zones. Building a base takes some time, which you will need to do for your HIM. Once you have an adequate base, you can then focus on building more top end speed.

Depends on what you mean by "short" and "top end". Building up true sprint ability is a waste of time here, but working up at the higher end of the aerobic zone is not. It's actually quite beneficial especially for folks who are more time limited as basically every age-grouper in existence tends to be. Building a base is not just LSD, but working various aspects to have a well rounded base of fitness.




Agreed. But determining what one's aerobic capacities and ranges are seems to be an important key for one may be doing a workout at a more anaerobic range which would not be beneficial to building an adequate base.
2013-10-23 10:16 AM
in reply to: knuta99

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
I agree with want most of the others have said. Just ride a lot and the cadence will sort itself out.

I would also be cautious about jumping in to a 70.3 in 6 months. That distance requires a pretty solid base and nutritional knowledge. It can be done, but a good cycling base takes years to develop. I would target a shorter distance early in the year and build to a half if you decide you like the training.


2013-10-23 10:26 AM
in reply to: ccmpsyd

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question

Originally posted by ccmpsyd
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by ccmpsyd Since you are relatively new at the bike and have signed up for a HIM in April, it would seem that your focus should be building endurance versus top end speed. I may be incorrect and others will chime in, but focusing on relatively short workouts at high rates of intensity will not assist you in building endurance required for a HIM. An effective way to build endurance is to determine your heart rate zones. Once established, you can then have training sessions focusing on staying in specific zones designed to build endurance. I am not sure if you have access to a heart rate monitor etc., or another way to do lactate threshold testing, but if you do, this is the way to determine heart rate zones. Building a base takes some time, which you will need to do for your HIM. Once you have an adequate base, you can then focus on building more top end speed.

Depends on what you mean by "short" and "top end". Building up true sprint ability is a waste of time here, but working up at the higher end of the aerobic zone is not. It's actually quite beneficial especially for folks who are more time limited as basically every age-grouper in existence tends to be. Building a base is not just LSD, but working various aspects to have a well rounded base of fitness.

Agreed. But determining what one's aerobic capacities and ranges are seems to be an important key for one may be doing a workout at a more anaerobic range which would not be beneficial to building an adequate base.

Not sure I quite understand what all is meant, but what I was saying was to push some VO2 at times and especially work at developing threshold power. Both are higher up with regards to aerobic work. Most definitely agree with understanding various levels to work at, with HR being one method that is useful for this.

2013-10-23 10:32 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
First of all thanks so much to all who have replied!
It is overwhelming to see so many actually bother to help a newbie out - especially Shane, fisherman, mirthfuldragon and ccmpsyd, appreciate your thorough replies!

I realize my post was maybe a bit short, so let me add a bit more info.
First about my training, I am now on my second day of this program http://triathlon.competitor.com/2010/09/training/super-simple-ironm... - hence only 40 minutes yesterday. I may do a bit more than what is in the training program if you guys think it is better, especially on the biking side. But the reason it was 40 minutes and not full out was due to the program.

When I said I was comfortable at a cadence of 70, but didn't think I could go much faster it was because I tried to go faster and my thighs got stiff and full of lactic acid quite quickly, so I know if I had tried to push 80+ for longer my legs would turn into timber logs and my cadence would probably drop to 10 after a couple of minutes.
This being my first time on a bike everything felt awkward and uncomfortable and it seemed like 40 long minutes, but I am sure that will improve quickly with repetition.

I gather from the responses here that trying for higher cadence at the cost of some "power" might be most beneficial initially. So will use that as a guideline and see how it goes.
I am ready for the pain and boredom

Then to those curious about my running and swimming statement. I started training this already and I am in decent condition (no top athlete mind you), and because swimming has been a very weak point I decided I would not buy a bike or sign up for any triathlon until I know I can swim comfortably at (for me) ok speed. So I can do 2000m and 2500m in a 50m pool at 2.40min/100m avg pace. This does not leave me winded or tired in any way, so I am very fresh after 40-50 minutes of swimming and can go much longer at same pace if need be without "breaking a sweat".
In case of running I have done a couple of half marathons, 16km, 10km and 8km races as well as run 2-3 times a week.
So when I say I think I have running and swimming under control it simply means I am very confident I can reach HIM condition in 5 months.

Btw, when I started my attempts to swim I could barely do 80m! After watching Total Immersion videos on Youtube I did 2000m after 3 weeks! That's when I realized a HIM might be possible after all. Amazing what you can learn from the internet, and now I am getting valuable training tips from you guys!
2013-10-23 10:37 AM
in reply to: pschriver

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
Originally posted by pschriver

I agree with want most of the others have said. Just ride a lot and the cadence will sort itself out.

I would also be cautious about jumping in to a 70.3 in 6 months. That distance requires a pretty solid base and nutritional knowledge. It can be done, but a good cycling base takes years to develop. I would target a shorter distance early in the year and build to a half if you decide you like the training.


That's probably really good advice, but sadly I live in a country where the triathlons are few and far between. And I had actually planned to do an olympic in July, but then suddenly it was announced Half Ironman would be held in April and a full in September, and these are quite rare events here - I think last time was 4-5 years ago, so I am going all in
If all else fails, at least the training for this should make the olympic very achievable in July.
2013-10-23 10:49 AM
in reply to: knuta99

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
I hope that you sign up for something before the HIM. With a 2:40 pace for swimming you are going to get clobbered in the swim unless you happen to be the last wave. This is not pool swimming, more like "MMA swimming". So you might be able to run a HM and be comfortable great, that's not the same as running it in a HIM.

I would suggest you get into a sprint or Oly event before your HIM to get an idea of how to handle all this.(you don't understand until you have tried one)
Work on your swim a lot more.
Ride on the road as much as possible- the trainer helps to build some fitness, it does not teach you how to ride. Big difference!
Don't expect to run your HIM as fast as you have you HM.

Do a lot of brick workouts.
2013-10-23 12:43 PM
in reply to: knuta99

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
Originally posted by knuta99

Then to those curious about my running and swimming statement. I started training this already and I am in decent condition (no top athlete mind you), and because swimming has been a very weak point I decided I would not buy a bike or sign up for any triathlon until I know I can swim comfortably at (for me) ok speed. So I can do 2000m and 2500m in a 50m pool at 2.40min/100m avg pace. This does not leave me winded or tired in any way, so I am very fresh after 40-50 minutes of swimming and can go much longer at same pace if need be without "breaking a sweat".
In case of running I have done a couple of half marathons, 16km, 10km and 8km races as well as run 2-3 times a week.
So when I say I think I have running and swimming under control it simply means I am very confident I can reach HIM condition in 5 months.

Btw, when I started my attempts to swim I could barely do 80m! After watching Total Immersion videos on Youtube I did 2000m after 3 weeks! That's when I realized a HIM might be possible after all. Amazing what you can learn from the internet, and now I am getting valuable training tips from you guys!


I'm going to go out on a limb and defend your chances strongly. 2:40/100m pace sure ain't fast by any stretch, but if you keep swimming regularly you'll more than likely whittle that down in the months that come. Even if you don't, you'll still handily make the cutoff. Sounds like you will run just fine as well. So you're 100% right to start burying yourself on the bike.

Originally posted by knuta99
When I said I was comfortable at a cadence of 70, but didn't think I could go much faster it was because I tried to go faster and my thighs got stiff and full of lactic acid quite quickly, so I know if I had tried to push 80+ for longer my legs would turn into timber logs and my cadence would probably drop to 10 after a couple of minutes.
This being my first time on a bike everything felt awkward and uncomfortable and it seemed like 40 long minutes, but I am sure that will improve quickly with repetition.


Don't extrapolate ANYTHING from your first training ride. As you're a new rider, I can assure you that you don't know how it's going to feel, or how it's supposed to feel. You may think your legs will turn inside out, but they keep going. You may think your legs are literally on fire, but they're not. Your perceived level of exertion ain't worth poo to you yet (YET) unfortunately. It's simple for us to say 'use trainerroad", but that's much deeper advice than it appears on the surface. What it allows you to do is train with a real metric - power, measured in watts. Anyone can get on a bike trainer, spin for 40 minutes, dismount, wipe their brow and say, "nice workout". But the reality is you don't know how to structure a workout, and you don't know how hard you're actually working, at least in a repeatable, measurable sense. Cadence is a nice start, and 'speed' gives you another metric, but they aren't very useful if you think about it...you could lower your cadence and up your gearing and make the wheel go around just as fast as if you upped your cadence and dropped your gear. This is all super on a trainer, you just find the cadence and gearing you "like", and pick a "speed" you want to hit, and just go. Unfortunately, real riding is nothing like that of course. Sometimes you have to pedal fast, sometimes slower, there's hills, wind, drafts, etc. If you don't have a program that builds your engine - the power generator - you'll get crushed. Not ON the bike, but about 2 miles into the run. You'll be shot. Trainerroad gives you the ability to measure power continuously, and provides you professionally composed training plans -series of structured workouts - that continually build your power and riding ability. You simply can't do that on your own. I would love to hear of you finishing the HIM with a wide smile on your face and the thirst for another. With the limited time you have, if you don't build your ability on the bike with a structured program, you won't be smiling. I have a friend who was in the same boat as you, albeit a better swimmer and runner, but a very new rider. His first words when finishing were "never again". I'd hate to see that happen to you.


2013-10-24 6:52 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Rookie biker question
Thanks fisherman,
I will have a look into that Trainer Road, I have Garmin 910xt with the ANT and cadence/speed and HR sensor, so I guess some of that will be compatible. And as you kinda touched upon, my only ambition is to finish within the cut off time, for my own satisfaction and I guess deep down some bragging rights

I had my second 40 minute today. Took the advice from here and tried to work on the cadence - managed to go at avg 85rpm and 25km/h, and it surprised me. I thought my legs would implode after a couple of minutes but they kept going remarkably well.

I won't bore you with daily updates of my progress but will thank again for all the great advice!
I will definitely ask more rookie questions about other related issues.
And I hope to announce my first completed triathlon - any distance - next year
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