General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Do you use low Crr tires? Rss Feed  
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2013-10-28 7:26 PM

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Master
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Subject: Do you use low Crr tires?
In the "wish you had and had not" thread I stated that I wished I had discovered low Crr (coefficient of rolling resistance) tires much earlier in my triathlon journey. My first three tears I just trained and raced on the tires that came on the bike. Then I read about low Crr tires and thought I would give them a try. I also went all-in and bought latex tubes to go with my fancy new tires.

It was amazing the different feel of the bike on faster tires. I am 100% convinced that I could tell the difference between my training tires and my fancy race tires blind folded. The bike is absolutely faster using the same power

I still use whatever tires I can get cheap from my LBS to train on but when race day comes around the fancy tires and tubes come out. It is the cheapest and easiest 'free speed' out there and it took me along time to figure this out.

Hoping this will help some folks skip the three year learning curve that I went through before I figured this out.


2013-10-28 7:30 PM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Champion
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MA
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?

I use latex and low Crr tires as it is free speed that is super cheap. If you have race wheels like I do, easy to keep latex and low Crr tires on race wheels. The best Crr tires I bought I couldn't get on and off my Zipp 404 rims easily so I choose other tires with little worse Crr but I had confience I could change them faster in a race.

One warning is if you leave latex tubes in tires for a few or many months they can get really stuck to tries. I learned the hard way in an IM AB that I flatted 1 mile from start of bike. It would be wise to remove the tubes at end of season. I also put my latex tubes in baby powder ziplock prior to installing them.

2013-10-28 7:31 PM
in reply to: KathyG

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Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?

Who has the link to the newest list of tires and their Crr ratings?

2013-10-28 7:34 PM
in reply to: KathyG

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Master
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ann arbor, michigan
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
Originally posted by KathyG

Who has the link to the newest list of tires and their Crr ratings?




I'll see if I can find a link to one of Tom A's posts.
2013-10-28 7:36 PM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
For racing, absolutely. Discovered the tires early on in my tri career, and latex tubes in the middle of my second season and have not looked back.

For training I'll use more durable tires simply because they are more cost effective (they don't wear as fast) and less prone to flats. But because they are slower, sometimes I'll change back to race tires if I know I'll be doing a really hard group ride with faster cyclists...meaning I need all the help I can get to hang on.

I also agree with the comfort of good tires. They're faster because they absorb the imperfections of the road better. So faster and easier on your bottom side.
2013-10-28 7:44 PM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Expert
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Greenville, SC
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?

you should probably use C.... never mind 



2013-10-28 7:47 PM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Master
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ann arbor, michigan
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
This is the definitive site (I think)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Don't want to direct people away from here but it has a list of most of the commonly used tires in triathlon with the predicted Crr of each. Scroll about half way down the first page.

I personally use Vittoria Evo Open Corsas and love them. Other people worry about their puncture resistance but thus far I have been fortunate to never flat with them in a race.

Obviously for many the Continental GP 4000s hits the sweet spot of cost, aerodynamics, low Crr and puncture resistance.

It is amazing how much difference tires can make in your bike's performance and I was hoping to educate and start some discussion. I know (think...) leegoocrap has many different tires for different situations. Maybe he could chime in with some info on how and why he uses what he does.
2013-10-28 7:50 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Master
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ann arbor, michigan
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
Originally posted by Jason N

For racing, absolutely. Discovered the tires early on in my tri career, and latex tubes in the middle of my second season and have not looked back.

For training I'll use more durable tires simply because they are more cost effective (they don't wear as fast) and less prone to flats. But because they are slower, sometimes I'll change back to race tires if I know I'll be doing a really hard group ride with faster cyclists...meaning I need all the help I can get to hang on.

I also agree with the comfort of good tires. They're faster because they absorb the imperfections of the road better. So faster and easier on your bottom side.


Somehow it took me a lot longer to figure this out. When I finally did, it was a revelation.
2013-10-28 8:33 PM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Pro
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Bellingham, WA
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?

I've been using the Vittoria EVO Open Corsa for the last year and a half and like them.  I much prefer the Specialized S-works Mondo but can't find them anymore.  I'm beginning to think the longer the name, the faster the tire.

2013-10-28 9:18 PM
in reply to: popsracer

Master
10208
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Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?

Originally posted by popsracer

I've been using the Vittoria EVO Open Corsa for the last year and a half and like them.  I much prefer the Specialized S-works Mondo but can't find them anymore.  I'm beginning to think the longer the name, the faster the tire.

The Mondos were discontinued a bit ago, unfortunately. Have a pair and really liked them. Now they have the Turbo line.

Also now there is the Conti GP4000S II. So let the debate begin anew?

2013-10-28 9:30 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Regular
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SF Bay area
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?

Can someone school me on Crr?  I understand that it basically rates how much resistance the tire has when rolling, but have no idea how that translates into a speed improvement.  For example, on the table referenced above, the Continental GP4000S with latex has a Crr of 0.0034 and the Continental GP4000 Black with a butyl tube has a Crr of 0.0042.  What would this mean in an Oly or IM?



2013-10-28 11:17 PM
in reply to: TTom

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Ajo
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
That difference means up to an avg of .3 mph increase, or put another way... on an 70.3, that is saving about 2 to 2.5 minutes of time, or IM double that, on an Oly, it could mean about 1 minute of reduced time.
2013-10-28 11:27 PM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?

I just put Conti GP4000S and latex tubes on my bike for this weekend's race.

Granted, training would have been a better idea, but no sense in wasting the little power that I've got.

2013-10-29 4:16 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Champion
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Knoxville area
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
I use low CRR tyres, but oftentimes I spring for the more aerodynamic tyre (even if it's got a bit worse CRR) it's a fine line and only important when you're looking for every second (or 1/4 second) and you are reasonably sure the aero > Crr.

The easiest example is the Bonty 19mm Aerowings (or Conti SuSo 20mm's) on a Trispoke or an old Zipp / Hed rim (pre 2006 I think - narrow rims) in those cases, the aerodynamic benefit of the rim/tyre matching is worth the worse rolling resistance than something like a Vittoria / 4000s.

With newer, wide aero rims, fatter tyres work well, although it's a bit misleading that although Zipp says Firecrests are MADE for wide tyres (23/25) they are actually optimally tested with narrower (21/22) tyres. Of course, the 4000s is a bit of an anomaly... although it isn't made specifically to be aerodynamic, something about it mates up VERY well the wider rims, and it has good RR.

Generally my tyre choice is a 19mm Aerowing on my H3, a 22mm Bonty R4 Aero on my C2 Jet9, a 23mm 4ks on an 808FC when I borrow it (although I'd like to try an Attack on it) and on my rear Powertap I swap between a 23mm Vittoria Evo CX, Grand Prix TT and Conti SuSo.

Basically every flat I've ever had on race tyres would have happened on Gatorskins. So long as you check your race tyres pre-ride and aren't riding around on jacked up tires, they should be pretty durable for the length of a race unless you are just riding straight through glass/thorns/whatever.

Latex tubes, always. (except in your flat kit... no latex there)
2013-10-29 5:20 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

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Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
Once I found GP 4000s tires, that was good enough for me.
I keep one set pretty much for races only and use latex with them. Take the tubes out after the race and recoat them with talc before hanging the tubes back up beside the tires.

I was amused after all the hoopla with Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX so I picked up a set of slicks. Yeah, you can feel a difference in the butt. Not of speed, but of comfort. Anyway what I was amused about was in one of the biking or triathlon magazines they had a race wheel shootout and printed what each wheel maker suggested as the optimum tire for their wheels. My HED Jet wheels were suggested to use GP 4000s tires, suggested by HED no less.

Good enough for me

2013-10-29 5:53 AM
in reply to: tomspharmacy

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.


2013-10-29 7:23 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

Veteran
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Houston, Texas
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
I use Conti GP4000s tires and latex tubes for racing. Honestly, I can't feel a difference, but I'm happy to get any free speed I can. I figure all the little savings add up -- a couple watts here, a couple watts there....eventually you've earned yourself 10+ watts for free, and that does make a difference. But the tires and tubes alone....I didn't notice it.
2013-10-29 7:28 AM
in reply to: ligersandtions

Extreme Veteran
3025
2000100025
Maryland
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?

I've been using Continental Super Sonics on my HED3's and have loved them so far. As previously mentioned, having nice expensive wheels almost seems like a waste if you throw on a tire (gatorskin for example) that is going to cost as many watts as you have gained from the wheel itself. And remember, while puncture resistance is important, you are only riding 25 miles in an Olympic, on presumably decent roads where you can see the pavement. Anything that you cannot avoid that willpierce your Conti GP4000S will probably pierce that gatorskin too.

2013-10-29 7:35 AM
in reply to: Fred D

Master
3205
20001000100100
ann arbor, michigan
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by tomspharmacyThat difference means up to an avg of .3 mph increase, or put another way... on an 70.3, that is saving about 2 to 2.5 minutes of time, or IM double that, on an Oly, it could mean about 1 minute of reduced time.
. Yeah this is big, and a lot cheaper than some of the other ways to gain speed like getting an uber bike or Zipp 808s etc. latex tubes are just smart!


My last two races I have coasted past people who were pedaling hard on the downhills. This is very strange for me because I am pretty light and traditionally I have only passed people going up, not down.

I am personally convinced that some of my newfound downhill speed is due to optimizing my tires and tubes. An improved aero position doesn't hurt but I'm attributing it to the tubes and tires
2013-10-29 7:44 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

Master
1927
100050010010010010025
Guilford, CT
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
Originally posted by wannabefaster

This is the definitive site (I think)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Don't want to direct people away from here but it has a list of most of the commonly used tires in triathlon with the predicted Crr of each. Scroll about half way down the first page.

I personally use Vittoria Evo Open Corsas and love them. Other people worry about their puncture resistance but thus far I have been fortunate to never flat with them in a race.

Obviously for many the Continental GP 4000s hits the sweet spot of cost, aerodynamics, low Crr and puncture resistance.

It is amazing how much difference tires can make in your bike's performance and I was hoping to educate and start some discussion. I know (think...) leegoocrap has many different tires for different situations. Maybe he could chime in with some info on how and why he uses what he does.


This is what I like as well. Although this year I just left Continentals on for road bike focus since they hold up so much better on the chipseal. I love the feel of the Vittoria's but I was tearing through them. On a smoother road with latex tubes I can 100% feel the difference on those. I have Jet C2 rims so perhaps I'm getting the same speed out of the GP4000s but the feel of the Evos is much more to my liking.
2013-10-29 7:54 AM
in reply to: TTom

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
There is a basic rule that you can use to consider the time you would save:

0.0005 Crr reduction ~ 0.005m^2 CdA reduction ~ 0.5s/km ~ 5W

So if you take the best tire/ tube combo you have a Crr of 0.0031 and if you take the worst tire/tube combo you are looking at 0.0077 so you have a delta of 0.0046 or a savings of about 4.5s/km; 3 minutes in an Olympic and more than six for a HIM.

Now most would not be upgrading from the very worst to the very best but you can play around with some different combos and see what you might save over the distances you race.

SHane


2013-10-29 8:10 AM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

Master
1927
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Guilford, CT
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
So Chris, you like GP4000s w/ latex on the Hed Jet C2 rims over the Vittoria's?

I know you've probably analyzed this so will take your word at it being faster and have read that elsewhere. Even though I like the feel of one over the other, I like more speed for free more than I like the better feel. If a little extra durability gets kicked in as a bonus then it is an easy decision. I had heard it was more aero but wasn't sure I bought in completely to that benefit and was more focused on the better roll I was getting on the smoother surfaces with the Vittoria's.
2013-10-29 8:16 AM
in reply to: acumenjay

Champion
7136
5000200010025
Knoxville area
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
I think on a Jet C2 I'd choose
R4 Aero (22), GP4000s (23) and then the Vitt (23)

Although I think you're close to splitting hairs. Between the Vitt/GP4k I think the GP4k is probably just a little better.

Again, if you could get an Attack out of the Attack/Force combo I have a feeling that would be best... but I don't have anything other than a gut feeling on that.

2013-10-29 8:46 AM
in reply to: wannabefaster

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?
Yes and I use latex tubes for races only. However, I use butyl tubes as spares, latex IMO is to thin and easy to puncture in the "stress" moments of chaining a flat during a race.
2013-10-29 8:49 AM
in reply to: DanielG

Pro
5755
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Subject: RE: Do you use low Crr tires?

Originally posted by DanielG Once I found GP 4000s tires, that was good enough for me. I keep one set pretty much for races only and use latex with them. Take the tubes out after the race and recoat them with talc before hanging the tubes back up beside the tires. I was amused after all the hoopla with Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX so I picked up a set of slicks. Yeah, you can feel a difference in the butt. Not of speed, but of comfort. Anyway what I was amused about was in one of the biking or triathlon magazines they had a race wheel shootout and printed what each wheel maker suggested as the optimum tire for their wheels. My HED Jet wheels were suggested to use GP 4000s tires, suggested by HED no less. Good enough for me

I use the same setup, latex and GP4000S. I feel like I've found the perfect combination. They stay on my carbon wheels. Unlike you I do take them out to play even when I'm not racing. Just so smooth of a ride.

I had used slicks, but after sliding all over the place in a couple cold, wet races, I just didn't have the level of comfort I should. Which will hurt your time a lot more than the small difference of crr.

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