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Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? (Page 2)
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 2013-11-03 6:55 PM in reply to: moverby20 |
Expert  2355    Madison, Wisconsin |  Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point?Originally posted by moverby20 Originally posted by bcagle25 I thought about this too so I did some research 2014 IM Los Cabos: Open IMTX: Open IMCDA: Open IMLP: Foundation Slots IM Canada: Open IM Colorado: Foundation Slots IMLou: Open IMWI: Foundation Slots IM Tahoe: Open IM Chatt: Sold Out IMFL: Foundation Slots: IMAZ:???? So out of 11 races open for registration as of today we have: 6 Open 3 Open for Foundation Slots 1 Sold Out
My $0.02. Los Cabos, TX, and CDA are all really early season meaning that the northern clime folks have a harder time training for those. So the next question would be if they lowered the price to $400-$500 would they sell? |
| 2013-11-03 7:22 PM in reply to: C_Hassard |
| 225 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Originally posted by C_Hassard
Any results page viewable for that survey? I responded! So far we have I have three responses. I'm hoping to get a few more before I go to bed so I can post up some results. |
| 2013-11-03 8:03 PM in reply to: metafizx |
Pro 6011  Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Originally posted by metafizx Originally posted by TriMyBest I just checked the Rev3 site for Cedar Full distance and it's between $425 - $475....not $250. still certainly cheaper than a WTC IM race as for the $700 entry for WTC IM, well....it's expensive but it's only a part, where the hotel, car, airfare, and misc are the main cost factors. It's been a while since we've had a discussion about this. They've raised the entry for IMFL 2014 another $50 over this year to a new high of $700. (IIRC, four years ago for the 2010 race, it was about $500?) I had two athletes who volunteered yesterday. They were able to get their registration for next year at the race site this morning without any trouble, and didn't complain about the price tag. Another athlete of mine planned on trying to get in online today, but when he saw that they raised the registration another $50 to $700, he and his wife decided it wasn't worth it, and pulled the plug at the last minute. Instead, we're looking at a Rev3 event for him instead, because the cost is about $250 less, and their events tend to offer more for the athlete's family. Since there are more options now, such as Rev3 and Challenge, do you think a lot more people will be likely to choose another event because of the escalating cost or maybe for other reasons too?
$425 - $475 is an average of $450. $700 minus $450 = $250 less for Cedar Point Full than IMFL.
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| 2013-11-03 8:06 PM in reply to: spudone |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Originally posted by spudone Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by TriMyBest . Good question Don. I imagine there is some sort of dollar number that puts it beyond the reach of many, but honestly most ironman triathletes are not close at $700 ime. First incomes of ironman athletes tend to be on the higher side. Second as the above poster stated, the entry fee is but a small chunk of the cost overall. Bikes, wheels, coaching, nutrition, clothes, shoes, wetsuits et , etc. I hate to say this but if IMFL was $1,000 it would still sell out. Maybe not as fast, and clearly this is speculation on my part, but it has a ways to go. Originally posted by KeriKadi No. Many people will be happy to do Rev3 and other non branded races but still others will only do IM races. When races like IMAZ sell out in 40 seconds and this year they estimate it may not even go live people prove they are willing to pay the price tag. For me personally the $650 entry fee was a fraction of the amount spent this past year. The $50 is a drop in the bucket compared to what people are paying for bikes, wetsuits, nutrition, coaching etc. Ok, then I have a follow up question. What do you think the limit is? $800? $1,000? $1,500? There has to be a point where the market says "that's more than we're willing to pay". I don't know the answer, and don't even have a gut feeling for where the pricing limit is, but I'm curious what others think.
IM NYC was the tipping point at least right now. The year they ran it was $825 I think (sold out), and then the next year they upped it to $1200 and signups were slow before they canned it. Of course, you have to figure with inflation that prices are going to slowly rise over time, so the limit in 2012 might be a lot different from say, 2017.
Edit: the princes can probably handle $1200 By most of the accounts I heard, the high costs for WTC to run the event, logistical problems on race day, and participants being less than enthused about the course were probably the biggest determinants of that race's death.
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| 2013-11-03 8:08 PM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Master 2855 Kailua, Hawaii | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by metafizx Originally posted by TriMyBest I just checked the Rev3 site for Cedar Full distance and it's between $425 - $475....not $250. still certainly cheaper than a WTC IM race as for the $700 entry for WTC IM, well....it's expensive but it's only a part, where the hotel, car, airfare, and misc are the main cost factors. It's been a while since we've had a discussion about this. They've raised the entry for IMFL 2014 another $50 over this year to a new high of $700. (IIRC, four years ago for the 2010 race, it was about $500?) I had two athletes who volunteered yesterday. They were able to get their registration for next year at the race site this morning without any trouble, and didn't complain about the price tag. Another athlete of mine planned on trying to get in online today, but when he saw that they raised the registration another $50 to $700, he and his wife decided it wasn't worth it, and pulled the plug at the last minute. Instead, we're looking at a Rev3 event for him instead, because the cost is about $250 less, and their events tend to offer more for the athlete's family. Since there are more options now, such as Rev3 and Challenge, do you think a lot more people will be likely to choose another event because of the escalating cost or maybe for other reasons too?
$425 - $475 is an average of $450. $700 minus $450 = $250 less for Cedar Point Full than IMFL.
sorry, I misread your original post. |
| 2013-11-03 8:17 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? One of the other factors that I mentioned in the OP is the increased competition from Rev3 and Challenge. It seems to me that the increased competition (supply) would suppress the rate that WTC is able to raise prices, but that may only really impact races that are close geographically or on the calendar. Looking at that list that Ben posted, it makes me think that maybe they actually are pretty much at the price point the market will bear for several of the races, because they're not selling out, so we won't see huge increases in those registrations, but for the races like IMFL and IMAZ that sell out in minutes, they will continue to jump them $50 or so a year until they reach the price where it takes a few days or weeks to sell out, then the price will stabilize. In the end, maybe we'll see pricing something like $1,000 - $1,200 for the popular races, and $600-$700 for the less popular ones.
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| 2013-11-03 9:08 PM in reply to: bigevilgrape |
| 225 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? |
| 2013-11-03 9:17 PM in reply to: #4891257 |
Veteran 266 Carolina Beach | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? I get the whole MDot cult following but it's just not for me. I prefer to support local/smaller race companies. I don't need all the bells and whistles that go with IM. I did Beach to Battleship again this year and it was awesome. To me, IM brand races are just not worth the extra money. Also, the more I read about how WTC treats their pro athletes, the less interested I am in doing one of their events. |
| 2013-11-03 9:19 PM in reply to: #4891257 |
Elite 3140 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Interesting thread, I am not.sure what the price tipping point will be but honestly the price will only freeze or drop if some of these other race companies start growing not only in number of races but marketing to.get more participants. If you really think about it there really isnot that many IM distance races especially if people do not want to spend big bucks traveling. I only think the big players of Rev or challenge can compete. I think if Rev would start adding some IM dist. Races other than cedar point they would tip into more of the market share......also with Challenges reputation if they make a splash with AC and grow they will also do the same and pull people from.WTC...........I think they are the only two that probably could drive the price down or at least stabilize it. With that said IM brand is not going anywhere and many people like the prestige of doing a branded event but ifthose races grow there will be a price limit before people will.either go to another brand or be a one and done and do an IM brand once or less frequently than before |
| 2013-11-03 11:38 PM in reply to: FELTGood |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? I think it's a question of basic supply and demand. For all practical purposes, WTC is the only game in town, so they can 'set' the market and that's that. Is there competition? Yes, B2B and Cedar Point are good races, but they don't have enough market power (or race slots) to influence pricing. If they were to join forces, and create a new national network of races with a significant number of race slots that could lure folks away from WTC races, then perhaps that would have a stabilizing impact on prices, and maybe even would generate some downward pressure on race prices. But until that day, we should expect increasing prices each year from WTC. (And as an aside...seriously, Knoxville? Rev3 has to do better than Knoxville for their championship. Yes, it's more accessible than Hawaii is, but Knoxville is quite underwhelming...) We could also discuss the demographics of the folks that sign-up for WTC races, and try to determine if there is a potential ceiling on prices, but I don't have the data for that. I imagine that the one and done/bucket list folks are less sensitive to race prices than multiple races per season triathletes are. I race only a handful of times per year, so I probably a bit less sensitive to race prices than other are, though I'm still careful. But to the OP question about race prices, and where's the tipping point...IMNYC $1200 price was far too high. I think $650-$750 is about right. Can't remember what I paid for IMFL 2012, but I didn't think that was unreasonable. Same for IMMT 2014. I did notice the price was higher than IMFL, but I don't think it was too bad. And from a branding perspective, Ironman is on par with Kleenix and Coke in terms of market awareness. Just to clarify this point, I'm not saying Ironman is as strong as Kleenix or Coke, but each dominate their category so much that they've become more than just a brand. In other words, when you have a cold, you ask for a Kleenix. 99.9% of folks do not ask for a "facial tissue" or another brand of facial tissues. And the same with Coke, though I'm sure some Pepsi loyalist would disagree. It's getting late and I'm sure there are other examples, but oh well. So long story short, I don't think WTC is approaching the price tipping point yet. |
| 2013-11-04 12:19 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
| 59 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by moverby20 So the next question would be if they lowered the price to $400-$500 would they sell? Originally posted by bcagle25 I thought about this too so I did some research 2014 IM Los Cabos: Open IMTX: Open IMCDA: Open IMLP: Foundation Slots IM Canada: Open IM Colorado: Foundation Slots IMLou: Open IMWI: Foundation Slots IM Tahoe: Open IM Chatt: Sold Out IMFL: Foundation Slots: IMAZ:???? So out of 11 races open for registration as of today we have: 6 Open 3 Open for Foundation Slots 1 Sold Out
My $0.02. Los Cabos, TX, and CDA are all really early season meaning that the northern clime folks have a harder time training for those. A good question. It might. I'm a little surprised that they don't do more "demand" based pricing. |
| 2013-11-04 3:28 AM in reply to: moverby20 |
| 489 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? I wonder how much the increase in price affects the quality of the field? I suspect it lowers it as so many athletes are priced out. |
| 2013-11-04 4:16 AM in reply to: spudone |
| 282 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Originally posted by spudone Haha ya I've wondered about that. The easiest courses sell out the quickest and the hard ones take a long time or don't sell out at all. To me that seems to go against the whole point of Ironman, or at least why I am doing it. And to the original point: Here in Canada, western Canada at least, the options are IM Canada $685 or Challenge Penticton $649. For the extra couple percent not many people are going to say IM is overpriced vs. the competition. Originally posted by bcagle25 I thought about this too so I did some research IM Los Cabos: Open -- hills Starting to see a pattern? It's sort of funny considering people who do IM supposedly want a challenge
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| 2013-11-04 7:27 AM in reply to: Chillin |
Champion 7547 Albuquerque, New Mexico Bronze member | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? WTC has a lot more data at it's disposal than we do. We don't know, for example, the distribution of regular slots versus community fund slots versus the Executive Challenge slots, but that gives them great visibility into the price points. Do you suppose they allocate more CF slots to the races that sell out quickly? They can create artificial scarcity (and drive people to the CF slots) by allocating an additional 50 or 100 slots that way. (They can also allocate a higher number in slower selling races to still claim "sold out" status.) How much do you think the average athlete drops at the expo and for finisher gear? An additional $350? Again, WTC has this data, and they can look at whether entry fees are eating into merchandise sales... I did IMCdA in 2009 and Vineman in 2011. The cost of the race was pretty minor compared to the cost of the trip each time. (The hotel in CdA was twice the entry fee.) People are amazed when I tell them what it costs to register for an Iron-distance race (WTC or otherwise). It's $600 for about 12-13 hours of racing (for me) so about $50/hour. If I spend $25 to run a 23 minute 5K, that's $65/hour. (Want a deal, it cost me about $12 to run a half-marathon in South Africa last December, it would have been $10 if I belonged to a RSA running club.) |
| 2013-11-04 7:28 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Originally posted by Chillin Originally posted by spudone Haha ya I've wondered about that. The easiest courses sell out the quickest and the hard ones take a long time or don't sell out at all. To me that seems to go against the whole point of Ironman, or at least why I am doing it. And to the original point: Here in Canada, western Canada at least, the options are IM Canada $685 or Challenge Penticton $649. For the extra couple percent not many people are going to say IM is overpriced vs. the competition. Originally posted by bcagle25 I thought about this too so I did some research IM Los Cabos: Open -- hills Starting to see a pattern? It's sort of funny considering people who do IM supposedly want a challenge
Doing an iron distance race is hard, no matter how "easy" the course it. It bothers me when people down-play the difficulty of tackling a iron distance race. If 'you' want to sneer at 'easy' IMs, ST is waiting for your presence..... (ETA--sorry maybe that was a little snarky and I try not to be like that) For a lot of people the distance is enough. They don't need altitude or hills or heat thrown in to make it even harder and that is OK. I did Tahoe this year and it was the hardest race I have ever done. It is just not for everybody and there is no shame in that. The last two years I have deluded myself in to thinking that I might be able to qualify for Kona so I raced WTC. My race results have shown me that, while close, I am not that close...... It really opens up the possibilites for me. I will race where I think it would be a fun trip for my family regardless of brand name. It (qualification) just isn't going to happen  . IM Canada, Challenge Penticton, IM Tahoe, Challenge Roth, IM France, some of the Australian races. Those sound like pretty good spots to spend a week vacation. The cost of the race is usually a small fraction of the cost of the whole trip.Edited by wannabefaster 2013-11-04 7:56 AM |
| 2013-11-04 7:44 AM in reply to: wannabefaster |
Pro 4824 Houston | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Thank you! Originally posted by wannabefaster Originally posted by Chillin Originally posted by spudone Haha ya I've wondered about that. The easiest courses sell out the quickest and the hard ones take a long time or don't sell out at all. To me that seems to go against the whole point of Ironman, or at least why I am doing it. And to the original point: Here in Canada, western Canada at least, the options are IM Canada $685 or Challenge Penticton $649. For the extra couple percent not many people are going to say IM is overpriced vs. the competition. Originally posted by bcagle25 I thought about this too so I did some research IM Los Cabos: Open -- hills Starting to see a pattern? It's sort of funny considering people who do IM supposedly want a challenge
Doing an iron distance race is hard, no matter how "easy" the course it. It bothers me when people down-play the difficulty of tackling a iron distance race. If 'you' want to sneer at 'easy' IMs, ST is waiting for your presence..... For a lot of people the distance is enough. They don't need altitude or hills or heat thrown in to make it even harder and that is OK. I did Tahoe this year and it was the hardest race I have ever done. It is just not for everybody and there is no shame in that. The last two years I have deluded myself in to thinking that I might be able to qualify for Kona so I raced WTC. My race results have shown me that, while close, I am not that close...... It really opens up the possibilites for me. I will race where I think it would be a fun trip for my family regardless of brand name. It (qualification) just isn't going to happen . IM Canada, Challenge Penticton, IM Tahoe, Challenge Roth, IM France, some of the Australian races. Those sound like pretty good spots to spend a week vacation. The cost of the race is usually a small fraction of the cost of the whole trip. |
| 2013-11-04 8:00 AM in reply to: KeriKadi |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? It will be interesting to see how Roth does this summer with the Challenge race in Atlantic City. $575 and their policies are very good, especially compared to WTC. $25 to transfer registration to another athlete, $75 cancellation fee. They have a history of running good races, and this is their first foray in the US. |
| 2013-11-04 8:01 AM in reply to: wannabefaster |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Not to hijack this thread but I don't think you have deluded yourself from thinking you can KQ, pretty sure you have all the intangibles and the engine. Are you shying away from going for another KQ attempt? I believe Steve knows how to lay out the path for his athletes. Alright I'll stop my nosiness there just curious to know your future plans. |
| 2013-11-04 8:08 AM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Extreme Veteran 705 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Disclaimer: I will NEVER do an Ironman. But $700 is a huge amount of money. It is a month's worth of groceries for a family of 4 where I live. That's going to promote the idea of Ironman as a rich man's sport. The bikes cost thousands. The training takes hours and hours. It already is a very expensive sport, even at the lower levels. The nice thing about a marathon is that all you really need is a good pair of sneakers and a couple of hundred dollars. It is a romantic race, an Everyman race. Everyman can see himself doing it, which is good for the sport. Not just because of the distance, but because of the cost, the Iron Man is not seen as an Everyman race. Which is great if you can do it. I am in awe of those who do. But it does not make the sport relatable. People are not going to clamor to have it on the networks, like the marathon was yesterday. It will have a limited audience, and the more expensive it gets, the more limited its appeal, which is not good for it, IMHO. I mean, how many polo matches do you watch? Horse jumping? Both super expensive sports, with no appeal to the common man. Is this the future of tris? Only appealing to those who participate? The sport will hit a limit someday. I hope it doesn't hurt it. |
| 2013-11-04 8:18 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Originally posted by bcagle25 Not to hijack this thread but I don't think you have deluded yourself from thinking you can KQ, pretty sure you have all the intangibles and the engine. Are you shying away from going for another KQ attempt? I believe Steve knows how to lay out the path for his athletes. Alright I'll stop my nosiness there just curious to know your future plans. I can't PM you for some reason so I'll reply here. Yes, I am still working on it. I think I will get there, in time. If anyone can get me there, Steve (Darkhorse Multisport) can do it. Taking 2014 off from IM to concentrate on shorter stuff and really working on some speed (I think). 2015 will likely see me toeing the line at a WTC race and the goal will be to KQ. (as long as it is less than $1,000....... to get the thread back on topic ) |
| 2013-11-04 8:25 AM in reply to: nancylee |
Master 2500 Crab Cake City | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Great thread.. Here is my $0.02: In August, my wife and I drove up to IMMT to volunteer and we made a vacation out of it. I wanted to register in person to secure myself a spot at IMMT 2014 because I didnt know if it would sell out right away or not. Prior to volunteering, we discussed all things financial about IM and I know that for the forseeable future, this is my one and only chance to do an IM. Being that it is my first (possibly only) I wanted to do a IM Branded race for a lot of different reasons and we all know what they are. My wife and I looked at the finances and knew that this race was going to stretch the budget a bit (travel, rental home, race fees, food, etc) but it was a once in a lifetime opportunity (for now) and she knew how much it meant to me. The price tag was high but ultimately we decided it was going to be worth it and we are going to make the race a family vacation with both of our families which should help offset some of the costs. Anyway, I think what I am trying to say is that we have a price cap for vacations we decide to take and we treated this race as a vacation (will be). With that being said, all the fees and prices we are going to pay is still less then our vacation price tag cap so I would have paid more if the price tag was higher so I could have the experience. I think a lot of other people are in the same boat as me that if they treat it like a vacation for the family (IM has some nice destinations that can be treated like a vacation) then they can justify spending more money. Also, I know that my household income is probably on the lower end compared to most other triathletes (According to that Triathlete magazine study that the average income of a triathlete is over 100K a year) so if you make more money a year, the price tag isnt that bad when you have a high salary. I think WTC can continue to raise prices because they have the market mostly to themselves and they put on great events. Eventually, I think the prices will go up to $800 or so. Does anyone know if the price increase is for extra profit for WTC or do you think it has to do with costs associated with the race going up? |
| 2013-11-04 8:30 AM in reply to: KeriKadi |
Expert 1187 Ontario | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? For Me, IF I was going to do an iron distance race there are a few things that I would consider when choosing that matter more than the cost of the race - date, location, size of field (I'm slow so prefer bigger races), other things to do - if family is coming with me I don't want them bored out of their minds for 4 days. I'm will never be in contention to podium or KQ so IM branding doesn't matter as much as the other factors. For me the closest races to me IMMT (4 hours drive) and IMLP (2 hours drive) just happen to be branded races. But if more than my hubby and me were going (ie. kids and grandkids) I would more seriously consider Cedar Point. Basically Price of the actual race isn't much considering the few thousand for housing, travel, food etc. The people who go to volunteer for their guaranteed spot are spending quite a lot over the price of the race they pay (travel, hotel, etc for the 'volunteer' weekend). For ME I would probably pay up to $999 for reg entry. People pay much more for the foundation slots and they usually sell out too.
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| 2013-11-04 8:47 AM in reply to: nancylee |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Originally posted by nancylee I mean, how many polo matches do you watch? Horse jumping? Both super expensive sports, with no appeal to the common man. Is this the future of tris? Only appealing to those who participate? The sport will hit a limit someday. I hope it doesn't hurt it. Triathlon is already only appealing to those who participate. Like curling. Like biathlon. Like swimming (except in an Olympic year). It is just not that great as a spectator sport. |
| 2013-11-04 8:57 AM in reply to: wannabefaster |
Pro 5761 Bartlett, TN | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? I have not done an IM branded race, mainly due to the registration costs. I did do Redman in Sept and it was an amazing race, and while I have not done Ironman brand races, I do not feel ike my Iron distance race was any less awesome. My registraion was $340 for this race and I am defiantely considering doing it again. Having a fmaily of 5 and only one income really makes me look at spending that much money on a hobby. I not only have to look at registration costs, but also lodging, food, and gas, so I can see it costing way more than just the registration fee, which I have to take into account. So I may never do an Ironman branded race, but with races like Redman, Rev 3 and B2B out there, I do not feel like I am missing out on anything. |
| 2013-11-04 9:36 AM in reply to: jford2309 |
Elite 3770 | Subject: RE: Is Ironman approaching the market price tipping point? Without giving away too much info on my paycheck, I can tell you that $700 is way too much. I may do one more, and thats it. I did an independent IM in September and can tell you it is no way the same experience. No one on the course encouraging you, few spectators, luckily I had a bunch doing the aquavelo so I had a 10 person or so cheering section, but aside from that, no one really else at the finish!! Oh, did I mention my last 4 miles of my marathon were in the PITCH DARK? Yeah, they had no lights on the run course. none. they handed out a small portable one at the aid stations but most turned on their car lights! And that race was $450. There is a huge difference, and that is disappointing. But there is a HUGE difference between IM Loo I did last year and IMLP I did in 2007 when NA sports owned it. In 2010 even. I am disappointed in the general medal and merchandise. Part of the fun of doing the different IMs is if you hook in to what makes the area special. The generic medal, I'll admit, really really turned me off. I will probably do one more. And I'll have to save up for about 2-3 years to afford it. I won't be able to get a new bike, nor will I get to do 2-3 lead up halfs due to how expensive it is. I do think we are close to the edge, I can't be the only one in this financial bracket. I know that I have to make changes, things have to be sacrificed, and the first to go are extra races. Many of which would have been the IM 70.3. I'm going to do local cheaper ones instead. |
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