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2013-12-10 9:30 AM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

So I'll give you the Jewish perspective, as warped by yours truly. Grew up in an ultra-reform household, never really thought about religion. Went through the obligatory Bar Mitzvah, got tossed out of Confirmation (playing hockey in the parking lot rather than going to class). Went through college and graduate school, because a somewhat committed atheist. With a Ph.D. in Genetics and lots of hubris I just didn't see any good reason for God to exist. I did get married in a synagogue, and we did follow the holidays and raise our kids Jewish, but that was 100% my wife's doing.

So I dedicated myself to the corporate ladder and money, and some time ago it all fell apart. Divorce, she got the kids, and I was a mess. Found myself talking to a pretty amazing Rabbi,and realized that there was more to life than "ME." I started studying, going to synagogue, and changing my life. There was a balance missing, and religion has helped me find that balance. Sometimes it's a struggle, especially since I am such an empiricist. How do you explain belief? It just is. The empirical evidence for my belief comes in the change within my own life and the way it has impacted my family. My ex and I are best friends, and I have never been closer with my kids.

Why Judaism? Well, you can't escape your past. It's as much a cultural thing as spiritual. As my mom says, there's 5,000 years of Jewish guilt hanging over you. There's food, ritual, shared experiences, and being part of a community. Judaism is strong on education, and especially on interactive learning. Typically you study as a pair of students within a larger group, and each student will take a different viewpoint and logically argue their points. So that matches my background and nature. The Torah is fascinating, and as you delve deeper there is meaning in every single letter. Like math? Play around with Gematria. Like science? I've had incredibly detailed discussions with my Rabbi about the Big Bang, evolution, and the book of Genesis. We definitely disagree on some things but there is mutual respect.

FYI, I wish I was as eloquent as Tony.

I believe that's the first time anyone has ever uttered those words to me.    Thanks

btw, I love this and it's so true:  "The empirical evidence for my belief comes in the change within my own life and the way it has impacted my family."

 



2013-12-10 9:51 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

So I'll give you the Jewish perspective, as warped by yours truly. Grew up in an ultra-reform household, never really thought about religion. Went through the obligatory Bar Mitzvah, got tossed out of Confirmation (playing hockey in the parking lot rather than going to class). Went through college and graduate school, because a somewhat committed atheist. With a Ph.D. in Genetics and lots of hubris I just didn't see any good reason for God to exist. I did get married in a synagogue, and we did follow the holidays and raise our kids Jewish, but that was 100% my wife's doing.

So I dedicated myself to the corporate ladder and money, and some time ago it all fell apart. Divorce, she got the kids, and I was a mess. Found myself talking to a pretty amazing Rabbi,and realized that there was more to life than "ME." I started studying, going to synagogue, and changing my life. There was a balance missing, and religion has helped me find that balance. Sometimes it's a struggle, especially since I am such an empiricist. How do you explain belief? It just is. The empirical evidence for my belief comes in the change within my own life and the way it has impacted my family. My ex and I are best friends, and I have never been closer with my kids.

Why Judaism? Well, you can't escape your past. It's as much a cultural thing as spiritual. As my mom says, there's 5,000 years of Jewish guilt hanging over you. There's food, ritual, shared experiences, and being part of a community. Judaism is strong on education, and especially on interactive learning. Typically you study as a pair of students within a larger group, and each student will take a different viewpoint and logically argue their points. So that matches my background and nature. The Torah is fascinating, and as you delve deeper there is meaning in every single letter. Like math? Play around with Gematria. Like science? I've had incredibly detailed discussions with my Rabbi about the Big Bang, evolution, and the book of Genesis. We definitely disagree on some things but there is mutual respect.

FYI, I wish I was as eloquent as Tony.

I believe that's the first time anyone has ever uttered those words to me.    Thanks

btw, I love this and it's so true:  "The empirical evidence for my belief comes in the change within my own life and the way it has impacted my family."

 

I think it's really hard to explain belief. You can either take that leap of faith, or you can't. It definitely can't be forced.

If someone were to ask what my favorite part of Judaism was, I would say the Sabbath and Friday night meal. We don't do this every Friday, but we try to. After a crazy week, everything shuts down, we light candles, do the prayers, sing a little, and enjoy family time. Our tradition is to say one good and bad thing that happened to each of us during the week, and also discuss the weekly Torah portion. No cell phones, no iPod's, no TV. Guests are welcome, as is wine.

2013-12-10 10:25 AM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

So I'll give you the Jewish perspective, as warped by yours truly. Grew up in an ultra-reform household, never really thought about religion. Went through the obligatory Bar Mitzvah, got tossed out of Confirmation (playing hockey in the parking lot rather than going to class). Went through college and graduate school, because a somewhat committed atheist. With a Ph.D. in Genetics and lots of hubris I just didn't see any good reason for God to exist. I did get married in a synagogue, and we did follow the holidays and raise our kids Jewish, but that was 100% my wife's doing.

So I dedicated myself to the corporate ladder and money, and some time ago it all fell apart. Divorce, she got the kids, and I was a mess. Found myself talking to a pretty amazing Rabbi,and realized that there was more to life than "ME." I started studying, going to synagogue, and changing my life. There was a balance missing, and religion has helped me find that balance. Sometimes it's a struggle, especially since I am such an empiricist. How do you explain belief? It just is. The empirical evidence for my belief comes in the change within my own life and the way it has impacted my family. My ex and I are best friends, and I have never been closer with my kids.

Why Judaism? Well, you can't escape your past. It's as much a cultural thing as spiritual. As my mom says, there's 5,000 years of Jewish guilt hanging over you. There's food, ritual, shared experiences, and being part of a community. Judaism is strong on education, and especially on interactive learning. Typically you study as a pair of students within a larger group, and each student will take a different viewpoint and logically argue their points. So that matches my background and nature. The Torah is fascinating, and as you delve deeper there is meaning in every single letter. Like math? Play around with Gematria. Like science? I've had incredibly detailed discussions with my Rabbi about the Big Bang, evolution, and the book of Genesis. We definitely disagree on some things but there is mutual respect.

FYI, I wish I was as eloquent as Tony.

You are, thank you for this as well.

My quick observation is that although there are two different solutions, both Tony and Brian have starting spots that are very similar.  Sometimes you can not begin until you are at the bottom and ready to work your way out of it.

2013-12-10 10:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by cdban66

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

So I'll give you the Jewish perspective, as warped by yours truly. Grew up in an ultra-reform household, never really thought about religion. Went through the obligatory Bar Mitzvah, got tossed out of Confirmation (playing hockey in the parking lot rather than going to class). Went through college and graduate school, because a somewhat committed atheist. With a Ph.D. in Genetics and lots of hubris I just didn't see any good reason for God to exist. I did get married in a synagogue, and we did follow the holidays and raise our kids Jewish, but that was 100% my wife's doing.

So I dedicated myself to the corporate ladder and money, and some time ago it all fell apart. Divorce, she got the kids, and I was a mess. Found myself talking to a pretty amazing Rabbi,and realized that there was more to life than "ME." I started studying, going to synagogue, and changing my life. There was a balance missing, and religion has helped me find that balance. Sometimes it's a struggle, especially since I am such an empiricist. How do you explain belief? It just is. The empirical evidence for my belief comes in the change within my own life and the way it has impacted my family. My ex and I are best friends, and I have never been closer with my kids.

Why Judaism? Well, you can't escape your past. It's as much a cultural thing as spiritual. As my mom says, there's 5,000 years of Jewish guilt hanging over you. There's food, ritual, shared experiences, and being part of a community. Judaism is strong on education, and especially on interactive learning. Typically you study as a pair of students within a larger group, and each student will take a different viewpoint and logically argue their points. So that matches my background and nature. The Torah is fascinating, and as you delve deeper there is meaning in every single letter. Like math? Play around with Gematria. Like science? I've had incredibly detailed discussions with my Rabbi about the Big Bang, evolution, and the book of Genesis. We definitely disagree on some things but there is mutual respect.

FYI, I wish I was as eloquent as Tony.

You are, thank you for this as well.

My quick observation is that although there are two different solutions, both Tony and Brian have starting spots that are very similar.  Sometimes you can not begin until you are at the bottom and ready to work your way out of it.

I would say I needed a 2x4 to the back of the head to knock some sense into me.



Edited by BrianRunsPhilly 2013-12-10 10:38 AM
2013-12-10 11:03 AM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

Originally posted by cdban66

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

So I'll give you the Jewish perspective, as warped by yours truly. Grew up in an ultra-reform household, never really thought about religion. Went through the obligatory Bar Mitzvah, got tossed out of Confirmation (playing hockey in the parking lot rather than going to class). Went through college and graduate school, because a somewhat committed atheist. With a Ph.D. in Genetics and lots of hubris I just didn't see any good reason for God to exist. I did get married in a synagogue, and we did follow the holidays and raise our kids Jewish, but that was 100% my wife's doing.

So I dedicated myself to the corporate ladder and money, and some time ago it all fell apart. Divorce, she got the kids, and I was a mess. Found myself talking to a pretty amazing Rabbi,and realized that there was more to life than "ME." I started studying, going to synagogue, and changing my life. There was a balance missing, and religion has helped me find that balance. Sometimes it's a struggle, especially since I am such an empiricist. How do you explain belief? It just is. The empirical evidence for my belief comes in the change within my own life and the way it has impacted my family. My ex and I are best friends, and I have never been closer with my kids.

Why Judaism? Well, you can't escape your past. It's as much a cultural thing as spiritual. As my mom says, there's 5,000 years of Jewish guilt hanging over you. There's food, ritual, shared experiences, and being part of a community. Judaism is strong on education, and especially on interactive learning. Typically you study as a pair of students within a larger group, and each student will take a different viewpoint and logically argue their points. So that matches my background and nature. The Torah is fascinating, and as you delve deeper there is meaning in every single letter. Like math? Play around with Gematria. Like science? I've had incredibly detailed discussions with my Rabbi about the Big Bang, evolution, and the book of Genesis. We definitely disagree on some things but there is mutual respect.

FYI, I wish I was as eloquent as Tony.

You are, thank you for this as well.

My quick observation is that although there are two different solutions, both Tony and Brian have starting spots that are very similar.  Sometimes you can not begin until you are at the bottom and ready to work your way out of it.

I would say I needed a 2x4 to the back of the head to knock some sense into me.

haha, that's exactly what I tell people.  I was so stubborn that it took a 2x4 upside the head to open my eyes.

I also like the saying that "it's a whole lot easier to look up when you're laying on your back".  Kind of corny, but true.

2013-12-10 11:12 AM
in reply to: pga_mike

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by pga_mike

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
Originally posted by powerman What does intelligence or thinking have to do with spirituality? Why must they be contradictory? Spirituality is not a intellectual exercise.
Perhaps what he's describing is the fact there have been hundreds if not thousands of religions, faiths, holy books, etc. that all put forth stories that have little basis in science...yet are accepted as truth by many. He may be working on the assumption that it's easier to convince less intelligent people that myths passed down generation to generation are truth, even when evidence is anecdotal and interpreted 50 million different ways.. Intelligence, the ability to discern fact from fiction, the ability to weigh merits of tens, if not hundreds of different religions, can heavily influence the likelihood of a person to "buy into" any given religion. That's just how I interpreted it.

There are so many stories in the Bible that are contrary to either common sense or .  Creationism for example. Or the immaculate conception.  So many believe blindly because it is in a book.  The level of trust that ANY book is right and all others are wrong is beyond me.  Why do you accept the book as real?

Wait.. that's not only in many books.  I have seen the highlight over and over so I know it's real.  Franco Harris did catch that ball and it was amazing, so it's real!



2013-12-10 11:21 AM
in reply to: Pector55

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by Pector55

Originally posted by pga_mike

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
Originally posted by powerman What does intelligence or thinking have to do with spirituality? Why must they be contradictory? Spirituality is not a intellectual exercise.
Perhaps what he's describing is the fact there have been hundreds if not thousands of religions, faiths, holy books, etc. that all put forth stories that have little basis in science...yet are accepted as truth by many. He may be working on the assumption that it's easier to convince less intelligent people that myths passed down generation to generation are truth, even when evidence is anecdotal and interpreted 50 million different ways.. Intelligence, the ability to discern fact from fiction, the ability to weigh merits of tens, if not hundreds of different religions, can heavily influence the likelihood of a person to "buy into" any given religion. That's just how I interpreted it.

There are so many stories in the Bible that are contrary to either common sense or .  Creationism for example. Or the immaculate conception.  So many believe blindly because it is in a book.  The level of trust that ANY book is right and all others are wrong is beyond me.  Why do you accept the book as real?

Wait.. that's not only in many books.  I have seen the highlight over and over so I know it's real.  Franco Harris did catch that ball and it was amazing, so it's real!

lol, what's funny is even as a believer I often am challenged by the Bible.  If it were just me reading the Bible I'd have a tough time believing.  For me personally, I had to believe and then started to read the Bible to try to gain a better understanding.

2013-12-10 12:14 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand
What I don’t understand is why people still have questions about this. For me it's very simple. Either you choose to believe or not.
For me, If I have to choose to believe in something or nothing, I would rather believe in something.
Sure, there are many reasons not to believe and many to believe. It comes down to, each one of us have to chose for themselves.


2013-12-10 12:36 PM
in reply to: BigRun

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand
I'm really pleased that the two stories of forum members finding a path for them has worked out so well for them as individuals and no doubt a lot of people they come into contact with.

However, honestly, my take on it is that they were both at extreme low points in their life and very susceptible to the coercion techniques religions use to get people on board. I suspect that won't be taken offensively by the people in question but probably will by others. I don't really apologise for that, it's a perspective and as I say, I'm genuinely very pleased for them.

I live by no religion and all religions. Peace, tolerance, the ten commandments, parables and other writings that make you lead a more positive, constructive and valuable life are all to be commended.

But I just can't sign up to one faith as it cannot make sense that the few people who are in it are the chosen ones over the rest. Most people are signed up to their religion based on where they were born and who their parents are. Other religions have formed over a relatively recent history and others by political design (Church of England). So no, I cannot be a follower of a single writing. My faith is personal and open to lots of discussion to develop it. I'm not going to have my opinion on important life issues dictated to me by a historical writing, whether it's the Bible or the Koran but there's a hell of a lot of good stuff in both of those too.
2013-12-10 12:42 PM
in reply to: Dan-L

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by Dan-L I'm really pleased that the two stories of forum members finding a path for them has worked out so well for them as individuals and no doubt a lot of people they come into contact with. However, honestly, my take on it is that they were both at extreme low points in their life and very susceptible to the coercion techniques religions use to get people on board. I suspect that won't be taken offensively by the people in question but probably will by others. I don't really apologise for that, it's a perspective and as I say, I'm genuinely very pleased for them. I live by no religion and all religions. Peace, tolerance, the ten commandments, parables and other writings that make you lead a more positive, constructive and valuable life are all to be commended. But I just can't sign up to one faith as it cannot make sense that the few people who are in it are the chosen ones over the rest. Most people are signed up to their religion based on where they were born and who their parents are. Other religions have formed over a relatively recent history and others by political design (Church of England). So no, I cannot be a follower of a single writing. My faith is personal and open to lots of discussion to develop it. I'm not going to have my opinion on important life issues dictated to me by a historical writing, whether it's the Bible or the Koran but there's a hell of a lot of good stuff in both of those too.

X2

2013-12-10 1:01 PM
in reply to: Dan-L

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by Dan-L I'm really pleased that the two stories of forum members finding a path for them has worked out so well for them as individuals and no doubt a lot of people they come into contact with. However, honestly, my take on it is that they were both at extreme low points in their life and very susceptible to the coercion techniques religions use to get people on board. I suspect that won't be taken offensively by the people in question but probably will by others. I don't really apologise for that, it's a perspective and as I say, I'm genuinely very pleased for them. I live by no religion and all religions. Peace, tolerance, the ten commandments, parables and other writings that make you lead a more positive, constructive and valuable life are all to be commended. But I just can't sign up to one faith as it cannot make sense that the few people who are in it are the chosen ones over the rest. Most people are signed up to their religion based on where they were born and who their parents are. Other religions have formed over a relatively recent history and others by political design (Church of England). So no, I cannot be a follower of a single writing. My faith is personal and open to lots of discussion to develop it. I'm not going to have my opinion on important life issues dictated to me by a historical writing, whether it's the Bible or the Koran but there's a hell of a lot of good stuff in both of those too.

I can certainly respect that.

I often say to people who have difficult pasts with one religion or another:  The number one hindrance to people truly finding God is religion.



2013-12-10 2:06 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I'm really pleased that the two stories of forum members finding a path for them has worked out so well for them as individuals and no doubt a lot of people they come into contact with. However, honestly, my take on it is that they were both at extreme low points in their life and very susceptible to the coercion techniques religions use to get people on board. I suspect that won't be taken offensively by the people in question but probably will by others. I don't really apologise for that, it's a perspective and as I say, I'm genuinely very pleased for them. I live by no religion and all religions. Peace, tolerance, the ten commandments, parables and other writings that make you lead a more positive, constructive and valuable life are all to be commended. But I just can't sign up to one faith as it cannot make sense that the few people who are in it are the chosen ones over the rest. Most people are signed up to their religion based on where they were born and who their parents are. Other religions have formed over a relatively recent history and others by political design (Church of England). So no, I cannot be a follower of a single writing. My faith is personal and open to lots of discussion to develop it. I'm not going to have my opinion on important life issues dictated to me by a historical writing, whether it's the Bible or the Koran but there's a hell of a lot of good stuff in both of those too.

I can certainly respect that.

I often say to people who have difficult pasts with one religion or another:  The number one hindrance to people truly finding God is religion.

I can honestly say that every time I have needed help I have gotten it.  It usually isn't wrapped the way I wanted.....but there it is.

2013-12-10 4:46 PM
in reply to: Dan-L

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by Dan-L I'm really pleased that the two stories of forum members finding a path for them has worked out so well for them as individuals and no doubt a lot of people they come into contact with. However, honestly, my take on it is that they were both at extreme low points in their life and very susceptible to the coercion techniques religions use to get people on board. I suspect that won't be taken offensively by the people in question but probably will by others. I don't really apologise for that, it's a perspective and as I say, I'm genuinely very pleased for them. I live by no religion and all religions. Peace, tolerance, the ten commandments, parables and other writings that make you lead a more positive, constructive and valuable life are all to be commended. But I just can't sign up to one faith as it cannot make sense that the few people who are in it are the chosen ones over the rest. Most people are signed up to their religion based on where they were born and who their parents are. Other religions have formed over a relatively recent history and others by political design (Church of England). So no, I cannot be a follower of a single writing. My faith is personal and open to lots of discussion to develop it. I'm not going to have my opinion on important life issues dictated to me by a historical writing, whether it's the Bible or the Koran but there's a hell of a lot of good stuff in both of those too.

I certainly wouldn't use the word coercion. Judaism is completely non-proselytizing. Ever see an evangelical Jew? If meditation, Buddhism, or something else would have worked, that would have been equally as valid in my book. But it didn't. Same way I have an outlet in triathlon, it helps bring me inner peace.

I'm not an Orthodox Jew. I tried that, it didn't work very well for me. I'm more Conservative, with some personal variations thrown in based on my own beliefs. My opinions are most definitely NOT dictated by any one book, although a lot of my views do pass through that lens, and many others before coming into focus. You're right, there's lots of good stuff in other religious teachings, in philosophy, and in life's lessons. I fully agree you can live a moral life without organized religion, or even faith. You can also pretend to be deeply religious and be a real dirtbag, too.

I will add that I've been to Israel six times, and it's an overwhelming experience. I've been at the Wailing Wall, in the Mosque at the Temple Mount, and in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. In every one of those places I felt something metaphysical. One God, many paths.

2013-12-10 4:47 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I'm really pleased that the two stories of forum members finding a path for them has worked out so well for them as individuals and no doubt a lot of people they come into contact with. However, honestly, my take on it is that they were both at extreme low points in their life and very susceptible to the coercion techniques religions use to get people on board. I suspect that won't be taken offensively by the people in question but probably will by others. I don't really apologise for that, it's a perspective and as I say, I'm genuinely very pleased for them. I live by no religion and all religions. Peace, tolerance, the ten commandments, parables and other writings that make you lead a more positive, constructive and valuable life are all to be commended. But I just can't sign up to one faith as it cannot make sense that the few people who are in it are the chosen ones over the rest. Most people are signed up to their religion based on where they were born and who their parents are. Other religions have formed over a relatively recent history and others by political design (Church of England). So no, I cannot be a follower of a single writing. My faith is personal and open to lots of discussion to develop it. I'm not going to have my opinion on important life issues dictated to me by a historical writing, whether it's the Bible or the Koran but there's a hell of a lot of good stuff in both of those too.

I can certainly respect that.

I often say to people who have difficult pasts with one religion or another:  The number one hindrance to people truly finding God is religion.

I can honestly say that every time I have needed help I have gotten it.  It usually isn't wrapped the way I wanted.....but there it is.

But is it wrapped in bacon?

2013-12-10 5:46 PM
in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I'm really pleased that the two stories of forum members finding a path for them has worked out so well for them as individuals and no doubt a lot of people they come into contact with. However, honestly, my take on it is that they were both at extreme low points in their life and very susceptible to the coercion techniques religions use to get people on board. I suspect that won't be taken offensively by the people in question but probably will by others. I don't really apologise for that, it's a perspective and as I say, I'm genuinely very pleased for them. I live by no religion and all religions. Peace, tolerance, the ten commandments, parables and other writings that make you lead a more positive, constructive and valuable life are all to be commended. But I just can't sign up to one faith as it cannot make sense that the few people who are in it are the chosen ones over the rest. Most people are signed up to their religion based on where they were born and who their parents are. Other religions have formed over a relatively recent history and others by political design (Church of England). So no, I cannot be a follower of a single writing. My faith is personal and open to lots of discussion to develop it. I'm not going to have my opinion on important life issues dictated to me by a historical writing, whether it's the Bible or the Koran but there's a hell of a lot of good stuff in both of those too.

I can certainly respect that.

I often say to people who have difficult pasts with one religion or another:  The number one hindrance to people truly finding God is religion.

I can honestly say that every time I have needed help I have gotten it.  It usually isn't wrapped the way I wanted.....but there it is.

But is it wrapped in bacon?

You know.  Bacon alone should be proof there is a divine power.  It's just too good to be random.  ;-)

2013-12-10 6:35 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Pector55

Originally posted by pga_mike

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
Originally posted by powerman What does intelligence or thinking have to do with spirituality? Why must they be contradictory? Spirituality is not a intellectual exercise.
Perhaps what he's describing is the fact there have been hundreds if not thousands of religions, faiths, holy books, etc. that all put forth stories that have little basis in science...yet are accepted as truth by many. He may be working on the assumption that it's easier to convince less intelligent people that myths passed down generation to generation are truth, even when evidence is anecdotal and interpreted 50 million different ways.. Intelligence, the ability to discern fact from fiction, the ability to weigh merits of tens, if not hundreds of different religions, can heavily influence the likelihood of a person to "buy into" any given religion. That's just how I interpreted it.

There are so many stories in the Bible that are contrary to either common sense or .  Creationism for example. Or the immaculate conception.  So many believe blindly because it is in a book.  The level of trust that ANY book is right and all others are wrong is beyond me.  Why do you accept the book as real?

Wait.. that's not only in many books.  I have seen the highlight over and over so I know it's real.  Franco Harris did catch that ball and it was amazing, so it's real!

lol, what's funny is even as a believer I often am challenged by the Bible.  If it were just me reading the Bible I'd have a tough time believing.  For me personally, I had to believe and then started to read the Bible to try to gain a better understanding.

 

FYI, the Immaculate Conception was the conception of Mary, (not Jesus) and it means she was conceived without Original Sin. 

You're likely referring to the virgin birth, which is a whole other can of wax. 



2013-12-11 9:43 AM
in reply to: moondawg14

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand
Well reason why its harder for educated people just like successful people to believe in my views is because you do not need it to save you. You feel that you can save yourself.

As for why it takes people to hit rock bottom to look for such things is simple. When you are having a good dream you want it to last as long at it can. When you are having a nightmare you want it to end as fast as it can. If your having a good life why change it? If Jesus comes to you and says leave everything behind and follow me it is very easy when you have nothing but very hard when you have everything you could ever want.
2013-12-11 12:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by chirunner134 Well reason why its harder for educated people just like successful people to believe in my views is because you do not need it to save you. You feel that you can save yourself. As for why it takes people to hit rock bottom to look for such things is simple. When you are having a good dream you want it to last as long at it can. When you are having a nightmare you want it to end as fast as it can. If your having a good life why change it? If Jesus comes to you and says leave everything behind and follow me it is very easy when you have nothing but very hard when you have everything you could ever want.

I don't know about that.  I lead a simple life....and certainly don't get everything I want.  I was raised to treat others as I want to be treated, and to help others whenever I can.  I remember my grandfather's advice: if you're having a bad day, find someone to help.  I've tried to follow those words and others that I was raised with, and that has led to a remarkably happy life.  It's not  hard for me to believe in something greater than myself, in fact, I believe there has to be.... but it is hard for me to follow blindly the written words of man, a lot of which I have found to be pretty hypocritical when it comes to religion.



Edited by Left Brain 2013-12-11 12:12 PM
2013-12-11 1:01 PM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

Originally posted by chirunner134 Well reason why its harder for educated people just like successful people to believe in my views is because you do not need it to save you. You feel that you can save yourself. As for why it takes people to hit rock bottom to look for such things is simple. When you are having a good dream you want it to last as long at it can. When you are having a nightmare you want it to end as fast as it can. If your having a good life why change it? If Jesus comes to you and says leave everything behind and follow me it is very easy when you have nothing but very hard when you have everything you could ever want.

And you just described me at that point in my life to a T. When you're in that bubble, and don't have any balance in your life, ego and arrogance make you feel invincible. I don't think it's just success, it's more about the goals and how you get there. Do you step on people to get to the top, or do you lift them along with you?

2013-12-11 4:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand
I usually have a hard time with this question because I read it with a strong sense of skepticism. Sometimes when people ask the question, they decide in their hearts that asking the question is the end of the investigation that they are actually going to put into it. When "believers" hear the question, it generally comes across as an affront. It isn't asked to trained learners...it is asked to the general public. And if we do the things that general public tells us, we will probably do some pretty ridiculous things...like pee on ourselves in races just to pee on ourselves.

I am an Engineer who did not grow up around religion or God. After a lot of investigation, I became a believer of Christ...however I wouldn't consider myself the same as a western-world "Christian"...and many people would say I am probably too liberal in my thoughts to be "Christian", however I don't consider myself a "Christian"...I consider myself a learner and disciple of the words of God.

Sadly, I feel that the limit of many Western peoples' education on God is at Sunday School level. The reason why grown-ups are so confused with religion is because they begin their investigation into it with the same limited toolset as when they were a child. When the Sunday School model doesn't work any more, they feel like the model (religion) lied to them. The model didn't lie...you are just a grown person trying to use a child's model to explain something to you.

As far as religion, consider this:

Christianity and Muslim both stem from Judaism. The Quran and Bible both come from the Torah. The reason why people believe in something that stems from the Hebrew faith (torah) is because there is so much concrete physicial evidence to support it. As far as the differences between the faiths, it is important for you to research that as it doesn't make any sense for people to figure that out for you. They all serve the same God, and I feel that the God they serve will do what he can to bring as many to him.

As far as "God requiring Sacrifices", that is something that is all too often taken out of context. God has never required sacrifices. But look at this: God Can not touch or be with "evil"...So if there is evil that is created in you, you can not be with God. God then created the ability to sacrifice to work around that "evil". It is not a "Rule"...It is an invitation to return.

Sadly, Every church and religion has failed in one way or another. They build themselves up and create a community and invariably that community tends to sway in one way or another based on the needs/culture of the group. Biological needs will always trump spiritual needs.

All of this to say the following: Religion will fail. Churches will fail. Do not analyze them. Do not analyze people. Analyze the books and the history and you will know inside if you are on the right track.

  • ..Praying helps, also. Even if you have no idea who or what you are praying to.







  • Edited by lifejustice 2013-12-11 4:48 PM
    2013-12-11 6:17 PM
    in reply to: lifejustice

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    Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

    Originally posted by lifejustice  I feel that the limit of many Western peoples' education on God is at Sunday School level. The reason why grown-ups are so confused with religion is because they begin their investigation into it with the same limited toolset as when they were a child. When the Sunday School model doesn't work any more, they feel like the model (religion) lied to them. The model didn't lie...you are just a grown person trying to use a child's model to explain something to you.  

    Yet.... the fact remains, that indeed many fundamental Christians believe the Bible is the word of God himself, and what ever it says is true.... and that God flooded the world, and Jesus had a pet dinosaur because the Earth is only 10,000 years old. And you can go to many a Church, and talk to many a preacher (expert) and they will tell you you are wrong if that is not what you believe. None of the ones I ever talked to ever let me in on the secret that those were just Sunday school stories that I should stop believing. 

    So if you are truly trying to "find God", you are left with the dilemma of not having faith/believing, or not being a Christian. Now I do know there are "Universal" churches, and there are some that are not fundamental literalists... but those are few and far between. I personally do not have a problem with being a generalist, and considering the Bible just another book on faith that can help with stuff, but that is also considered blasphemy in most Churches just as it is in Mosques.

     

    Me personally... I have never understood the clash with science and intelligence and faith.... I mean I do historically, but not personally. If God created me, than he gave me the intelligence to explore his incredible creation and it would be my guess he fully intended me to do just that. Why wouldn't He? Why would he not be proud of the first Human to propose the Big Bang, or when we FINALLY found the Bosson Higgs particle? Just as if Mankind was a child itself and took it's first steps and then it's first voyage to far off worlds. I just don't get the conflict. Why in the world would God create all we can see and not want us to see it all?

    .... unless of course you believe the Bible is the written word of God himself and true in every respect.



    2013-12-11 6:22 PM
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    Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand
    I have two things to add. To the OP: I know your pain man.

    The second thing I have to add happened to me this morning. I think it exemplifies the importance of faith. I can say without a doubt the most enlightening of conversations that I have had are with people of deep unwavering faith. They can be beautiful conversations. So I give you....

    Today in the hot tub (as all good stories should start) and at the Renfrew Rec Centre (which, if you have been there, guarantees a good story), I met a friendly JW. I thought we could share a spirited exchange, until he asked me, "do I know why we have black people." He, justifiably, took my deer in the headlights look as an indication that he must proceed, "it is because some of Noah's children were black." In my effort to lead to some insight I reasoned, "perhaps that is why we also have white people." He said, "oh yes, we are the sons of Abraham." From there I had no where to go. So I left.

    Although I am quite confident such a story deserves its on thread in COJ I thought people interested in such a story are probably following this thread. I don't offer it to provide a chuckle. In retrospect I have regret that I left. People who are able to believe in such things are remarkable.

    I will never forget, when I was doing my philosophy degree, my parents having the catholic priests over. There were two. One from India. He was a bright fellow. I can't remember what we discussed, but he had me beat. Father Keith was there as well. What a short little man. Pompous. Off the cuff he said, "I don't have the education of my friend, so I rely on my faith." I remember thinking, what a pompous little.........

    He died of a very fast acting back cancer recently. I remember thinking, you are lucky you have your faith. I regret never telling him how I thought,and how I learned to think. That faith, although it may be stupid, it is also very brave.

    This likely does not help.




    2013-12-11 6:26 PM
    in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly

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    Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand
    Tony, I was thinking about your very open and heartfelt post earlier in this thread. The part that popped out at me was this one:

    "In the summer of 2006 I was at a friends wedding in a church and I remember sitting there mocking God endlessly while sitting in church. I was calling him the most vile and hateful things because of my anger inside towards being duped by religion. It's hard to explain, but I was really angry towards religion."

    Do you think it's possible that you were just in really bad denial? When I thought about those sentences you wrote I likened it to the hard-right conservative types that preach hardcore family values...but then end up being philanderers or closet drag queens.(J Edgar Hoover, we're lookin' at you)
    I guess what I'm getting at is, who would get so angry at "God" if they didn't already believe He (or She) existed? It seems to me it was only a matter of time before you found what worked best for you. Your comfort zone is believing in God.

    While I'm not a religious guy, I am happy you found religion/God, and that it helped you be a better person.

    btw, that said, I want to tip my hat to Clempson and his earlier posts that sum up a lot of what I see with religion. Doing right and avoiding wrong, in my opinion, should have nothing to do with religion, God, etc. It should stem from an idea that's been around a lot longer than any of the major religions: Treating people the way you'd like to be treated. Nothing more nothing less. Being able to put yourself in a less fortunate person's shoes.


    2013-12-12 12:27 PM
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    Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand
    Yet.... the fact remains, that indeed many fundamental Christians believe the Bible is the word of God himself, and what ever it says is true.... and that God flooded the world, and Jesus had a pet dinosaur because the Earth is only 10,000 years old.

    In general response (not directly to you) This is the type of thing that I have a hard time with when talking to people about Faith....Many people have a broken model and use it against others. This is dangerous for both groups.

    -I think "Christianity" gets the short end of the stick in a lot of hot topics because most of the arguments against "Christianity" are generally not actually even against it. Example: The things you point out are not Christianity. They are from the Torah. They are Judaism. ANYTHING Pre-Christ can not be attributed to Christ, correct? Moses was not a "Christian". Noah was not "Christian", He was a Hebrew. Jesus was not a "Christian" either. He was a Hebrew.

  • ..But that definitely does not make the Torah the bad guy, either! Imagine this: There are no bad guys. Just people.

  • They are in the "Christian" Bible to illustrate that it has all been wrapped up in a nice package and fulfilled. The "Christian" Bible says "All of this stuff is all done." And then non-believers say, "I can't believe in Christianity because they believe all of those things.", even though that stuff won't come back. People try to make it come back, but it never will.

    As a Western Culture, we are a culture of data, numbers, chronology, stats, and protagonist/antagonist. It is easy to get confused reading literature that is Eastern as we are quick to find and remember bullet points. The Torah and New Testament was intended for Eastern culture, which at the time was equally a culture of drawing a picture. Note that I am not saying that the things in the Torah are fables of some kind. I am saying that images are more important than statistics. I just saw this last night and it is a funny example:
    http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-ol-barbershop/n419...



    And you can go to many a Church, and talk to many a preacher (expert) and they will tell you you are wrong if that is not what you believe.
    None of the ones I ever talked to ever let me in on the secret that those were just Sunday school stories that I should stop believing.
    I really want to meet this preacher who believes Jesus had a pet dinosaur. I would personally laugh in the face of a preacher who believes the world is 10,000 years old. Everybody would laugh at that preacher, because we all know it is wrong. Sometimes I wish it was a requirement for church staff to be licensed in some way.

    I am not saying that Sunday School teachings are Wrong but OVERLY simplified ...but we are grown-ups and understand that Santa isn't real. We have access to the Tanakh, Midrash and many more writings/accounts than we did 15 years ago.
     So if you are truly trying to "find God", you are left with the dilemma of not having faith/believing, or not being a Christian.
    I think any non-denominational church completely agrees with you, and I completely agree with them and you. Non-Denominational churches learn from the writings themselves, and do not add tradition or anything else into the church. They are generally dynamic groups as they are constantly learning and trying to properly represent God in the way they are learning.

    Me personally... I have never understood the clash with science and intelligence and faith.... I mean I do historically, but not personally. If God created me, than he gave me the intelligence to explore his incredible creation and it would be my guess he fully intended me to do just that. Why wouldn't He? Why would he not be proud of the first Human to propose the Big Bang, or when we FINALLY found the Bosson Higgs particle? Just as if Mankind was a child itself and took it's first steps and then it's first voyage to far off worlds. I just don't get the conflict. Why in the world would God create all we can see and not want us to see it all?

    .... unless of course you believe the Bible is the written word of God himself and true in every respect.




    I agree with you completely and you share a lot of the "Smack my forehead" moments with many """""Believers"""". For Everybody (not response to you) I also feel that if God created all of this, and if I investigate fully (as God himself has put investigation in my heart), then it should lead back to God. The difference that I approach it with is the following: God is real; if something does not align with it, then it does not mean God is not real...but rather the way I am looking at it is wrong.

    Example: The New Testament looks very different when you read it as though there are no bad guys. There are no bad people. There are just examples of different decisions.

    I have gotten a great deal of inspiration by a Jewish Archeologist who aligns the Physical History of the Old/New Testament with the written word. (Start at "Are They Still Standing"). It is good to see all of the Historical references that lead to the truths towards God.
    http://www.followtherabbi.com/guide/listen

    Sorry if this is long, but it touches me when somebody has been negatively affected by a church or by a person in a church, and I want to do what I can to correct that issue. It is like watching a parent beat their child. I can't just watch it happen.

    Edited by lifejustice 2013-12-12 12:49 PM
    2013-12-12 1:01 PM
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    Subject: RE: Help a non-believer understand

    Originally posted by lifejustice
    Yet.... the fact remains, that indeed many fundamental Christians believe the Bible is the word of God himself, and what ever it says is true.... and that God flooded the world, and Jesus had a pet dinosaur because the Earth is only 10,000 years old.
    In general response (not directly to you) This is the type of thing that I have a hard time with when talking to people about Faith....Many people have a broken model and use it against others. This is dangerous for both groups. -I think "Christianity" gets the short end of the stick in a lot of hot topics because most of the arguments against "Christianity" are generally not actually even against it. Example: The things you point out are not Christianity. They are from the Torah. They are Judaism. ANYTHING Pre-Christ can not be attributed to Christ, correct? Moses was not a "Christian". Noah was not "Christian", He was a Hebrew. Jesus was not a "Christian" either. He was a Hebrew. They are in the "Christian" Bible to illustrate that it has all been wrapped up in a nice package and fulfilled. The "Christian" Bible says "All of this stuff is all done." And then non-believers say, "I can't believe in Christianity because they believe all of those things.", even though that stuff won't come back. People try to make it come back, but it never will. As a Western Culture, we are a culture of data, numbers, chronology, stats, and protagonist/antagonist. It is easy to get confused reading literature that is Eastern as we are quick to find and remember bullet points. The Torah was intended for Eastern culture, which at the time was equally a culture of drawing a picture. Note that I am not saying that the things in the Torah are fables of some kind. I am saying that images are more important than statistics. I just saw this last night and it is a funny example: http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-ol-barbershop/n419...
    And you can go to many a Church, and talk to many a preacher (expert) and they will tell you you are wrong if that is not what you believe. None of the ones I ever talked to ever let me in on the secret that those were just Sunday school stories that I should stop believing.
    I really want to meet this preacher who believes Jesus had a pet dinosaur. I would personally laugh in the face of a preacher who believes the world is 10,000 years old. Everybody would laugh at that preacher, because we all know it is wrong. Sometimes I wish it was a requirement for church staff to be licensed in some way. I am not saying that Sunday School teachings are Wrong but OVERLY simplified ...but we are grown-ups and understand that Santa isn't real. We have access to the Tanakh, Midrash and many more writings/accounts than we did 15 years ago.
     So if you are truly trying to "find God", you are left with the dilemma of not having faith/believing, or not being a Christian.
    I think any non-denominational church completely agrees with you, and I completely agree with them and you. Non-Denominational churches learn from the writings themselves, and do not add tradition or anything else into the church. They are generally dynamic groups as they are constantly learning and trying to properly represent God in the way they are learning.
    Me personally... I have never understood the clash with science and intelligence and faith.... I mean I do historically, but not personally. If God created me, than he gave me the intelligence to explore his incredible creation and it would be my guess he fully intended me to do just that. Why wouldn't He? Why would he not be proud of the first Human to propose the Big Bang, or when we FINALLY found the Bosson Higgs particle? Just as if Mankind was a child itself and took it's first steps and then it's first voyage to far off worlds. I just don't get the conflict. Why in the world would God create all we can see and not want us to see it all?

    .... unless of course you believe the Bible is the written word of God himself and true in every respect.

    I agree with you completely and you share a lot of the "Smack my forehead" moments with many """""Believers"""". For Everybody (not response to you) I also feel that if God created all of this, and if I investigate fully (as God himself has put investigation in my heart), then it should lead back to God. The difference that I approach it with is the following: God is real; if something does not align with it, then it does not mean God is not real...but rather the way I am looking at it is wrong. Example: The New Testament looks very different when you read it as though there are no bad guys. There are no bad people. There are just examples of different decisions. I have gotten a great deal of inspiration by a Jewish Archeologist who aligns the Physical History of the Old/New Testament with the written word. (Start at "Are They Still Standing"). It is good to see all of the Historical references that lead to the truths towards God. http://www.followtherabbi.com/guide/listenSorry if this is long, but it touches me when somebody has been negatively affected by a church or by a person in a church, and I want to do what I can to correct that issue. It is like watching a parent beat their child. I can't just watch it happen.

    The "Judeo" is silent. It is a given that Christianity is the Judeo/Christian belief system. Old and New Testament even if the Torah is not a pre requisite. That always amazed me in fact.... that the way I saw it... to become a Christian, I first had to become Jewish... that I had to indeed accept Judaism as real... then Jesus being the Son of God was a whole other discussion.

    Jesus's pet dinosaur is a joke of mine... trust me, it will catch on.

    The FACT is, the teachings of the Judeo/Christian faith are that the world is only 10,000 years old give or take. To explain dinosaurs, many just write it off that man and dinosaurs walked the Earth at the same time. This isn't a point I'm trying to debate for or against... it is an established fact. It is in "Intelligent Design". And a vast majority... well at least the American Evangelical Christian... indeed see the Bible as the strict word of God, and that he flooded the Earth, we came from Adam and Eve, and the Earth was just made... in archeological terms. So if I am to seek out Christianity in this country, that is the foundation it is based on... and you can't just go around willy nilly disagreeing with God just because it does not make sense to you.... in fact, you have to go out of your way to explain away what is in plain sight by coming up with your own "theory" as to how God made the world and the fossil record is a lie.

    I'm not trying to "argue" what is right or wrong, but that is what it is right now. And no church I ever went to showed any signs of wavering from the KJB version of the world. You and I can obviously put it into any terms we want, but that is not the Christian faith in this country.

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