General Discussion Triathlon Talk » 4 swim day or longer swim sessions? Rss Feed  
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2013-12-15 8:54 PM

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Subject: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
I'm trying to improve on my swim over the winter. I have a coach helping me and another guy once a week and it appears to be helping but I'm sure he's getting frustrated on my "progress". I keep hearing people say you need to swim over 10,000 yds/m a week to see any gains. I've gone from 2:00/100yd to about 1:50/100yd over the past few months but my goal is to be under 1:30 and I've hit a wall. I was swimming 2,500-3,000yds/session and I'm going to up that to at least 3,000 and then 3,500 in a few months but do you think I should do something like increase to 4,000 3x/week or add in a forth session instead? I don't think I can do both right now as it would take a lot of time and I'm stilling trying to B+R as well.


2013-12-15 9:44 PM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?

It can work either way, but you also have to make sure you get some intensity in those yards.  You could do 2 days of 5k each, but if you're cruising for most of those yards, it won't be as good as 4 days of 2.5k where you're hammering out intervals.

Also, if time is a limiter, I found that being more efficient with your workouts allows you to get much more yardage in a given amount of time.  Get in the pool, get on with it, minimize your rest breaks, don't stop to chat with others, get out, shower, and go home.  Maybe you already do this...most average swimmers at the pool don't.

2013-12-15 11:04 PM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?

If additional time to & from the pool isn't an issue, I like the extra workout more with the size of your swims (2,500-3,000). At your pace, that will be plenty of hard work even with a big warm-up to get ready. The additional frequency will help both in improving skill and in (potentially) more work at a harder effort.

2013-12-15 11:46 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
Yeah I think adding in a quick swim session after weights on Monday wouldn't be too bad, since I'm already there anyway. Going to try it tomorrow and see what happens. I'll just bring a snack or something to help hold me over. Going to hopefully use this as a forced bilateral breathing session. I tend to give up after 50yds into my sets and that needs to stop.
2013-12-16 12:54 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
Frequency x consistency = volume

Try to ramp up to 3-4 swims per week, never out of the pool more then 2 days

Build your session and main set volume up over time

Add in intensity (Swim real easy in the warmup, swim real hard in the main set....this is a constant struggle for triathletes to hang out in that grey zone)

Use paddles to build sport specific strength

Swim with others if you can....that are faster

2013-12-16 3:06 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
There will always be a crowd saying you need to swim more, ride more, run more, do more whatever. I don't think it's always that simple, in particular when it comes to swimming.

Doing longer sets may be counterproductive if you fatigue and technique starts suffering, likely you get lots of improvement from improving technique. Swimming 4 times a week is better, but not if you add your extra swim session after a weight workout when you're fatigued.

But nothing beats coaching. Rather than swimming 4 times a week, see if you can have your coach twice, and make sure that the workouts you do on your own are in line with the coached sessions. Maybe your coach can prepare extra workouts for you.

And, one last thing: Don't get discouraged because progress seems to have stopped. Progress is always faster in the beginning, and often we do make a plateau only to make new leaps later when something "clicks".



2013-12-16 7:47 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?

Originally posted by Blastman Yeah I think adding in a quick swim session after weights on Monday wouldn't be too bad, since I'm already there anyway. Going to try it tomorrow and see what happens. I'll just bring a snack or something to help hold me over. Going to hopefully use this as a forced bilateral breathing session. I tend to give up after 50yds into my sets and that needs to stop.

Do be mindful of how the lifting affects the swim. Know what your priorities are for that. I just remember from when I was still lifting a few years ago that swimming around the lifts rarely went that well.

2013-12-16 8:12 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
Swimming after lifting is not a good idea, if you want to do both then swim first.

If you want to get faster you have to swim intervals. Short fast pace once or twice a week. You can still get a lot faster with how much yardage your putting in.
2013-12-16 4:21 PM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
More than any of the 3 sports the swim needs to be about intensity. Your body doesn't get beat up in the pool the way it does with running and to a lesser extent cycling so it's important to avoid "junk" yards. Outside of a warmup and short cool down the bulk of the swim set needs to be fairly difficult. If you already are not doing this make this change first before simply adding yardage.
2013-12-16 5:41 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?

Are you doing sets, like 20 x 100 or just swimming until you reach your designated mileage? Are you doing 1:50/100 as a stand alone sprint or is this your pace when you do  your sets? 

I really liked doing this set: 8x25, 4 x100, 2 x200, 1x400. Sprint the first 25, recover the second, sprint/recover/sprint/recover etc by the 2x200 I usually just swam the rest at a race pace. Only take 10-15 seconds rest if needed. As you get more efficient you can sprint more and recover less.

On longer swim days I would do 10x100 go on 2min, the above set, and then another 10x100.

I'm in the group of people that believe swimming faster more often will make you faster overall rather then just swim slow with a lot of mileage. Swimming very long sets has its place, but not as the bulk of ones swim workout. 



Edited by LPJmom 2013-12-16 5:43 PM
2013-12-16 5:55 PM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
I think it depends on your level as a swimmer, specifically your endurance, and your goals. Can you do a 3500-4000m workout while still maintaining good form and pace? Or do one or both start to fall apart? If you haven't developed the endurance yet, then it would probably be more useful to add an additional session rather than increase the length of the sessions. That way you are doing most/all your swimming with good form and quality. Also, are you training for an Ironman or shorter distances? If IM, then you clearly need to have some sessions in the 4000-5000m range. If not, 3000-3500 should be plenty up to and including HIM. I'm a fairly FOP swimmer for sprint through HIM and I rarely go much beyond 3500m for my longest session; most are in the 2500-3000m range. I think for shorter distances for most people, it's better to get in the water more often, improve technique, and work in more race-pace or higher intensity, rather than go for fewer, longer sessions.

X2 on not swimming after lifting. If you need to combine those sessions, swim first.


2013-12-16 7:27 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
A little extra info since people keep assuming things about my routine: I do sets after a warm up. I follow Finks workouts + a little modification:

400 warmup
300 kick <--added this from coach, otherwise I'd skip it but my legs feel way way stronger than before, even if I don't plan to kick during IM
200 pull
4x50 drills
Sets
8x50 drills
100-300 CD

I don't half it on my sets. I do try to go all out. I tried to do the workout today after weights and I just wasn't feeling it. I did something to my left shoulder Friday (bad swim form I'm sure) and it's still iffy today but mostly I got frustrated since bilaterial day failed again. I did a 250yd warmup at 1:50 pace, 300 kick, 200 pull, drills, and then only did 5x50 @ 47-48s/set (plan was 10x50, 4x100, 10x50 today for main set, which I'll do tomorrow instead). I don't think the weights are too bad, as long as I keep short (30-40mins/max) but next week I'm going to try to swim before hand and lift afterwards.

I think I would have kept at it if my race was closer but it's so far away that the extra 4th day motivation isn't there. I'm starting to get myself to panic though since it's a lot closer than I thought and my goals are still far away, so hopefully next week I show a little more dedication.
2013-12-16 7:33 PM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?

Less warm up and drills and do more hard swimming so you are panting on the side of the pool, feeling you gave it your all.

Doesn't look like you do much hard swimming.

I find 4th swim is better than longer swims.

I used to lift and swim on the same day and found it worked really well for me. I think some days I lifted during lunch and swam after work so they were not back to back.

2013-12-16 9:33 PM
in reply to: erik.norgaard

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?

Originally posted by erik.norgaard

There will always be a crowd saying you need to swim more, ride more, run more, do more whatever. I don't think it's always that simple, in particular when it comes to swimming. Doing longer sets may be counterproductive if you fatigue and technique starts suffering, likely you get lots of improvement from improving technique. Swimming 4 times a week is better, but not if you add your extra swim session after a weight workout when you're fatigued. But nothing beats coaching. Rather than swimming 4 times a week, see if you can have your coach twice, and make sure that the workouts you do on your own are in line with the coached sessions. Maybe your coach can prepare extra workouts for you. And, one last thing: Don't get discouraged because progress seems to have stopped. Progress is always faster in the beginning, and often we do make a plateau only to make new leaps later when something "clicks".

x2

I would use caution adding a swim session after a weight session.  The absolute first priority should be proper stroke technique.  If you stroke breaks down from fatigue (much more likely immediately after a weight workout, especially if you don't have a coach on deck to observe) the extra swim workout would actually be detrimental.

2013-12-19 4:58 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
Originally posted by Jason N

You could do 2 days of 5k each, but if you're cruising for most of those yards, it won't be as good as 4 days of 2.5k where you're hammering out intervals.

YES! Avoid the garbage yardage!
2013-12-19 7:42 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
How long have you been swimming? You have made some gains, most likely in swim fitness. This could take time to get to 1:30 and a lot more swim fitness and technique. Just be patient, consistent and push the intensity. Intensity is needed to get faster, the body will adapt to those stresses. Definitely coaching or eyes on your form will help you. To be honesty I would swim 4-5 day a week, leaning more on 5. If you feel run down cut back and recover a week. Good luck.


2013-12-19 8:23 AM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?

As an extension to the OP's question, would you all recommend jumping right in to full on intensity and just letting your body's limits set the bounds for the workout by what it is capable of, or do you build intensity into the plan more slowly?

I've been back in the pool in ernest the last few weeks and have been swimming what would be considered, to most of you I would guess, junk yards - going at less than race pace but a decent clip (for me) for 2-2.5k per swim.  I've approached it like running or biking, where I build a base and THEN add in intensity (acknowledging that you can put more intensity into swimming more regularly - that's not my question… it's when to start and how fast to ramp).

Having had my right shoulder "fixed" surgically, I don't want to pop my left one!  Is this something I don't need to worry about?  There aren't issues with it currently, but I've been thinking about it as building endurance for a couple months and THEN adding in the intensity.  Should I just start doing vomit inducing sets right now?

I love long, hard OWS workouts, but in the pool (and almost anywhere else) I'm a sucker for getting all sprinty and have actually been holding myself back and trying to be smart (for a change).

Matt

2013-12-19 8:29 AM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?

Well, I wouldn't jump right into the vomit inducing stuff but I certainly wouldn't build for months.  Start adding the intensity now but keep it smaller and build that.  Start with 10x50, or even 2 x (5 x 50) with an extra minute or two between the 5x.  Pick a pace and repeat time that you can hold for the whole set but gets you tired by the end.  Go from there.

2013-12-19 8:52 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
Swim before weights.
2013-12-19 8:56 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: 4 swim day or longer swim sessions?
Originally posted by KathyG

Less warm up and drills and do more hard swimming so you are panting on the side of the pool, feeling you gave it your all.

Doesn't look like you do much hard swimming.

I find 4th swim is better than longer swims.

I used to lift and swim on the same day and found it worked really well for me. I think some days I lifted during lunch and swam after work so they were not back to back.




I would disagree with the less warm-up and drills and more hard swimming completely.

Until you get below around the 1:40/100 range, drills and form are you limiters. Strength is NOT a determining factor in swimming. Form Form Form = Speed in the water.

As soon as your form starts to break down, take an extra rest and reset. You are simply doing yourself a disservice by swimming with poor form. Using tools like paddles, pull buoy and fins are vital as well. Use them properly to help you.

Example:
Paddles/Pull Buoy allow you to focus on using your lats more and really work on an early vertical forearm and not having to worry about your legs

- Fins allow you to focus on a quicker turnover and fluidity. Not just make you swim 'faster'.

Edited by Marvarnett 2013-12-19 9:01 AM
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