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2013-12-20 8:27 AM

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Subject: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
Hi all,

Being that I am new to the whole triathlon thing, I am confused about.. almost everything. I just picked up swimming 3 months ago. Before taking a form clinic I could get from point a to point b, but it was not at all graceful. Now, when I am in the pool, I look like a real swimmer! At the YMCA where I train I seem like a real speed demon, but that is likely because it is mostly old folks that swim laps. So, here is the first question... what is an average swim time, say for 50m? I time myself regularly and it seems that with real effort it takes about 1 minute. That seems terribly slow.

The first question sort of segues into the next question. Does anyone else only have one setting? Regardless of whether I am trying to go fast or slow, that is generally the same pace. It seems that I only have one pace. I try really hard to slow down, but ultimately end up around the same pace as if I were racing against the clock. What's that about?

Last thing. Does anyone else find that the transition from shallow to deep end is a real mind f***? Something about visual change in depth really messes with me and causes me to sometimes feel out of sorts. This is especially bad when the lanes are set up to go from 6 to 13 rather than 3 to 6. Am I just crazy?

Help me not be a horrible swimmer.


2013-12-20 8:56 AM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

For a triathlon swimmer, you can be confident that you are just about exactly at the average. It sounds like you need to get more comfortable in the water, but a pace of 2:00/100 is right at average. 

2013-12-20 9:06 AM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
Avg. times are relative only to that swimmer. You'll get 10 -20 seconds difference avg. per 50 between FOP and BOP swimmers in any given workout.

If you only have one speed, IMHO your technique probably has a ways to go. Your body doesn't want to slow down because your technique can't sustain a proper position in the water and I'm guessing you'll start to sink just a hunch. Do different drills for freestyle, they really do help build a good technique.

Don't worry about the deep end, you'll get used to it, just watch your lane line on the bottom and concentrate on your stroke. The more you'll do it the more comfortable you'll get.


Keep at it because improved technique will bring faster times. It's not about how hard you swim, it's about how well you swim. Good luck!
2013-12-20 9:25 AM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

LB wow is that really the average? I didn't check the numbers, but you post good stuff when the Right side isn't mess you up.

jps733 that is a good post real good stuff.

thegaintness, wow 3 months in the water, keep it up. Your swim fitness will continue to improve and you will see more gains. I could suggest you do sets. You maybe already doing so. Do a warm up maybe some drills at this time, then some fast intervals, followed by some tempo, then a cool down and a few more drills. Swim workout are fun to play around with. Good luck.
2013-12-20 9:52 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

Originally posted by Left Brain

For a triathlon swimmer, you can be confident that you are just about exactly at the average. It sounds like you need to get more comfortable in the water, but a pace of 2:00/100 is right at average. 

If it were held for the whole swim that would be average, but an all out 50 of 1:00 would put the OP more in the BOP I would think.

2013-12-20 10:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

Originally posted by BrotherTri LB wow is that really the average? I didn't check the numbers, but you post good stuff when the Right side isn't mess you up. jps733 that is a good post real good stuff. thegaintness, wow 3 months in the water, keep it up. Your swim fitness will continue to improve and you will see more gains. I could suggest you do sets. You maybe already doing so. Do a warm up maybe some drills at this time, then some fast intervals, followed by some tempo, then a cool down and a few more drills. Swim workout are fun to play around with. Good luck.

Pretty much that's what I see at races....get somewhere right at 2:00 per 100 and you're about in the middle.  The front of the pack is a ways ahead of you, the pointy end is WAY out in front of you.....but there will be plenty of people swimming slower than 2:00/100.  Go look at the AG Sprint National results....100 people....you start seeing the 2:00/100 show up at around 400th place or so.......by 600th place 2:00 and above is the norm.  To the OP......you will be slower in open water., but once you get more comfortable/fit  your swim speed will be right in the wheelhouse.



Edited by Left Brain 2013-12-20 10:28 AM


2013-12-20 10:03 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Left Brain

For a triathlon swimmer, you can be confident that you are just about exactly at the average. It sounds like you need to get more comfortable in the water, but a pace of 2:00/100 is right at average. 

If it were held for the whole swim that would be average, but an all out 50 of 1:00 would put the OP more in the BOP I would think.

Yeah, that's probably right.....I was rounding...you know, average.    Still. if he can do 50 in 1:00 he's still not BOP....for the most part, people who do triathlon are bad swimmers.

2013-12-20 10:12 AM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
Your 50 and short distances aside, I swim 1:50-2:10 depending on the waves, coldness, wetsuit legality, etc. I've come out 138/275 and similar in pretty much all my races so 2:00 is about as center of mass as you're going to get.

Your pool time may or may not have a thing to do with your open water time. No waves in the pool, no walls in the lake, etc.
2013-12-20 10:49 AM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

If your time is pretty much the same no matter the effort you are putting in I would take a closer look at your stroke and catch.  My guess is when you are trying harder you are just spinning your wheels.  By that I mean you are raising your stroke rate but since you don't have a good feel for the water yet it's not getting you anywhere quicker.  As you work on your feel for the water and start to build shoulder/swim specific strength your times will begin to drop. 

Just a guess, hard to know without seeing it live.  Hope this helps.

2013-12-20 11:09 AM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

Originally posted by Left Brain

For a triathlon swimmer, you can be confident that you are just about exactly at the average. It sounds like you need to get more comfortable in the water, but a pace of 2:00/100 is right at average. 

 

Big caveat here though - 

 

I agree that for a typical dead MOP result in a open water swim leg, 2:00/100 is right dead average.

 

HOWEVER - remember this is for open water swimming in a race field. A lot (likely most) triathletes on a fair accurately measured open water course swim slower than their pool time, and for a beginner, I'd expect a +15 if not +20sec/100. 

 

For my 2nd year of triathlon, when I was very capable of always swimming just under 2:00/100yds and eventually even meters even for 60 minutes, I never broke 2:00/100 avg pace for a sprint or Oly open water swim. 

2013-12-20 11:28 AM
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Subject: ---
@DanielG No waves?! Ever been in the pool while an army of old women are doing aerobics? It's chaotic.

Edited by thegiantess 2013-12-20 11:31 AM


2013-12-20 11:32 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by Left Brain

For a triathlon swimmer, you can be confident that you are just about exactly at the average. It sounds like you need to get more comfortable in the water, but a pace of 2:00/100 is right at average. 

 

Big caveat here though - 

 

I agree that for a typical dead MOP result in a open water swim leg, 2:00/100 is right dead average.

 

HOWEVER - remember this is for open water swimming in a race field. A lot (likely most) triathletes on a fair accurately measured open water course swim slower than their pool time, and for a beginner, I'd expect a +15 if not +20sec/100. 

 

For my 2nd year of triathlon, when I was very capable of always swimming just under 2:00/100yds and eventually even meters even for 60 minutes, I never broke 2:00/100 avg pace for a sprint or Oly open water swim. 

I agree with that.....and if you read further down you will see that I said the same thing.  I also agree with Daniel that how much slower depends alot on conditions.

We can pick nits all you want......swim a 100 in 2:00 and you'll be average.....period.

2013-12-20 11:33 AM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
Thanks all. I swam 2000 this morning and was feeling pretty confident. I find that really really really focusing on form is the key to either slowing down or speeding up. So, basically what some of you said.. that with good form comes good swimming. Also, the depth was not an issue.. I think maybe once I get in the zone and am focusing on form I lose a sense of everything else. Of course, this will likely change in open water when I totally freak out. WOOO! Thanks again.
2013-12-20 11:39 AM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

At first blush, I would agree 2:00/100 is "average" for the field.  I only swim 1:30-1:35 in a tri swim and that usually get's me out in top 25%-30% of the swimmers and that's not very fast compared to "actual" swimmers.  Holding 1:00/100 paces is just as astonishing to me as running marathons at 6:00/mile pace.  It's mind blowing TO ME.

2013-12-20 12:55 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

Yeah...if you can sustain 2:00 per 100m in the pool for say...1000m...you'll likely be average at almost any triathlon race.  Yes, you might be slower (or faster) on race day due to a variety of factors, but in general, so will everyone else.

All of my local races are ocean and non wetsuit swims.  Typically the average speed for Olympics and HIMs are closer to 2:15 per 100m.  But if you throw those same swimmers in a pool, they'll likely all be swimming around 2:00 per 100m.

2013-12-20 1:09 PM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

I agree with many of the above replies. 1:00/50 meters in a pool is relatively the middle. However, OW is very different. At my last sprint I was 2nd out of the water in my wave (400 meters) and was swimming at 2:07/100 meters. When I saw that pace, I was mortified. Then I realized that there are no walls, other swimmers to pass & navigate around, wake, currents, spotting, and very little visibility. Since most races begin right at sunrise, in many cases, you won't be able to see the bottom of the lake/river/ocean. You'll also be focusing on spotting the buoy and the swimmers around you. You should not focus on the depth. If anything, look forward and use the end of the lane to focus, rather than the lane lines. You won't have any in your race. Unless it's a pool swim. If so, then disregard anything that I just said.

If you're not changing in pace regardless of your effort - it seems like you've got a smooth stroke at a low intensity, but you're slapping water at a higher intensity. At a high intensity you shouldn't be splashing more, but pulling harder. If looked at from out of the water, you shouldn't see any difference in hand splashes. Your kick might pick up, but that's all. You should also notice that it's taking you fewer strokes to get from one wall to the next. With a harder pull, you're gaining more distance per stroke. If you're adding more strokes, you're not propelling your body.



2013-12-20 1:25 PM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
If 2:00/100yards pace, it has more to do with your training than technique. At 2:00/100 you won't have the strength and conditioning in the water to get to more efficient technique. In my experience, the vast majority of triathletes with the proper training and coaching, are capable of easily going 1:30-1:40/100 pace.
2013-12-20 1:57 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Left Brain

For a triathlon swimmer, you can be confident that you are just about exactly at the average. It sounds like you need to get more comfortable in the water, but a pace of 2:00/100 is right at average. 

If it were held for the whole swim that would be average, but an all out 50 of 1:00 would put the OP more in the BOP I would think.

Yeah, that's probably right.....I was rounding...you know, average.    Still. if he can do 50 in 1:00 he's still not BOP....for the most part, people who do triathlon are bad swimmers.

 

Ok, I'm nitpicking here, but not just to be difficult, truly!

 

I was definitely a BOP swimmer when I was a 2:00/100 yard (not meter) pace in the pool, even for 3000 yards. Not BBBOP, but definitely slower than average at least in every California sprint/oly I did. 

 

I would actually be very surprised if the OP could have a dead-MOP result as a new-to-OWS swimmer with isolated 2:00/100 pace. Not trying to be a downer here, just being realistic - I had the very same experience my entire first year of tri, and it was always incredibly disappointing to have everyone tell me I'd be a MOP swimmer with 2:00/100yds in the pool, and always be far behind that on race day, even with the wetsuit assist.

 

The 2:00/100m pace (equals 1:50/100yds) is more realistic for a MOP result, imo. Sounds like not a huge difference, but those 10sec/100 really are a big difference for someone at that level.

2013-12-20 2:40 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
Take my local Olympic Tri. OWS swim in Lake Ontario. Conditions can be rough.

2:00 100m puts the 1500 swim dead on 30minutes.

Recent results show that 30 minutes for the swim places a lot of guys between 8th and 10th in agegroup and int he top quarter overall. But they had good bike and run times.

The dead middle of pack atheletes were also clocking 28 to 30 minutes for this distance.

2 minutes for 100m is the very definition of average pace.
2013-12-20 2:50 PM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
Originally posted by thegiantess

Hi all,

Being that I am new to the whole triathlon thing, I am confused about.. almost everything. I just picked up swimming 3 months ago. Before taking a form clinic I could get from point a to point b, but it was not at all graceful. Now, when I am in the pool, I look like a real swimmer! At the YMCA where I train I seem like a real speed demon, but that is likely because it is mostly old folks that swim laps. So, here is the first question... what is an average swim time, say for 50m? I time myself regularly and it seems that with real effort it takes about 1 minute. That seems terribly slow.

The first question sort of segues into the next question. Does anyone else only have one setting? Regardless of whether I am trying to go fast or slow, that is generally the same pace. It seems that I only have one pace. I try really hard to slow down, but ultimately end up around the same pace as if I were racing against the clock. What's that about?

Last thing. Does anyone else find that the transition from shallow to deep end is a real mind f***? Something about visual change in depth really messes with me and causes me to sometimes feel out of sorts. This is especially bad when the lanes are set up to go from 6 to 13 rather than 3 to 6. Am I just crazy?

Help me not be a horrible swimmer.


Are you sure its a meter pool and not yards? Most Y personnel are instructed to tell you it's meters, lots of people don't even know what they swim in. I'm on the east coast of the country and in this area I would say 95% of the pools are 25 yard pools.
2013-12-20 3:38 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
Am I the only one that is faster on OW than in the pool?
I done a pool sprint tri in 18min, a sea sprint in 16min, a river sprint in 18min and a weir oly in 30min.


2013-12-20 4:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

Originally posted by tatous Am I the only one that is faster on OW than in the pool? I done a pool sprint tri in 18min, a sea sprint in 16min, a river sprint in 18min and a weir oly in 30min.

Nope.  My OW times crush my pool times.  Yes, there is a wetsuit assist, so that probably helps.  Yes, it's during a race, so I can focus and bury myself better than any time trial test on my own in the pool. 

Thing is, I swim faster in OW just training than the pool, too, so not just on race day (and this is over reliable distances, backed up by Garmin 910 and over MANY repeats, so not an artifact, I think). I think the wetsuit is the first piece of why I'm faster in OWS and the second is the environment on race day for me being "motivating." 

Might just be that I am very comfortable in the open water and can find my rhythm for a target pace and stay with it better than a chlorinated tub full of other people's sloughed off skin and kiddie pee (too much?).   

Either that or I need to learn to do flip turns.

Matt

ETA:  I'll be curious to see if my times get closer to each other this year, as my form is much better now after a year of swimming (from never being more than a survival swimmer until last year).  I bet they will, and that the wetsuit will help less by comparison, but we'll see in 6 months!
M



Edited by mcmanusclan5 2013-12-20 4:10 PM
2013-12-20 4:10 PM
in reply to: tatous


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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion

Some folks do get a significant boost from wetsuits. Also, courses are notorious for being mismeasured; even a  small 100yd difference is pretty huge. But odds that a beginner triathlete like OP will swim faster in OWS in their first tri , without heavy swim background, are probably low.

2013-12-20 7:58 PM
in reply to: thegiantess

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
60 for a 50 is slow by masters swimming standards.
2013-12-20 7:59 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: Average Swim Time and other swim confusion
Or you suck at turns.
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