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2014-01-20 3:11 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: correcting wide kick or scissors kick

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by snappingt Politely, I think you might be mistaking her breathing pattern and her turn of the body when she breathes for hip engagement. But from my experience, that stroke looks to be very shoulder driven.
I think it's just a difference in terminology then...here is what I'm seeing: Her right arm strokes, (she is not breathing) the right arm is more than halfway through the underwater stroke, but her torso has not yet turned, right hip & shoulder still down. her right leg begins its kick and at the earliest moments in the kick the torso rotation begins, the right arm finishes and the left shoulder/arm enter the water and extend. What am I missing?

 

I did my best to capture the shot at the same point in the kick. With Laure, she hasn't finished her kick and her opposite arm is already fully extended underwater, and her hips are pretty flat. With her shoulder's having already rotated, the kick is not really providing much more than stability. With Sun, he is kicking and pulling at about the same time, so that kick isn't following what the shoulders are doing, it's leading them.





(kick.jpg)



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2014-01-20 9:36 PM
in reply to: tjfry

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Austin, Texas
Subject: RE: correcting wide kick or scissors kick

Brain. Hurts. Now.  

This is great stuff - thanks!

Questions (if anyone has any excitement left for this!): I guess I'm not getting whether the rotation (and a kick to help rotation) is to pull harder through the middle of the stroke, or if you pull hard and the rotation then allows the other arm to extend the stroking arm to recover.  Or, gawd forbid, do you rotate to start the arm coming back (seems hard to do that)?  Argh - when does the rotation start??  When should it be most powerful or snappiest?   

Say the catch is done and you have a vertical forearm, and it's starting back and goes to the point where the upper arm is ~90 degrees to the long axis of the body (to the side).  Is the body rotation and kick used to pull harder through that middle portion of the arm stroke, or is the hardest part of the pull at the start of the stroke (right after getting the forearm vertical) and the rotation is more to get the body out of the arm's way and allow the other arm to fully extend forward?

 

Also, to a previous post, I noticed that my kick and timing does change depending on pace.  I suppose that is normal, from what I read in the above posts, but it just adds to the complexity!

While I AM trying to figure this out, I'm just swimming along and trying not to think too much when in the pool (although all I do is think about my stroke when I'm in the pool, yeh?).  Thinking at home is preferred...  

Thanks.
Matt

2014-01-21 6:59 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Expert
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200050025
The Woodlands, TX
Subject: RE: correcting wide kick or scissors kick

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Brain. Hurts. Now.  

This is great stuff - thanks!

Questions (if anyone has any excitement left for this!): I guess I'm not getting whether the rotation (and a kick to help rotation) is to pull harder through the middle of the stroke, or if you pull hard and the rotation then allows the other arm to extend the stroking arm to recover.  Or, gawd forbid, do you rotate to start the arm coming back (seems hard to do that)?  Argh - when does the rotation start??  When should it be most powerful or snappiest?   

Say the catch is done and you have a vertical forearm, and it's starting back and goes to the point where the upper arm is ~90 degrees to the long axis of the body (to the side).  Is the body rotation and kick used to pull harder through that middle portion of the arm stroke, or is the hardest part of the pull at the start of the stroke (right after getting the forearm vertical) and the rotation is more to get the body out of the arm's way and allow the other arm to fully extend forward?

 

Also, to a previous post, I noticed that my kick and timing does change depending on pace.  I suppose that is normal, from what I read in the above posts, but it just adds to the complexity!

While I AM trying to figure this out, I'm just swimming along and trying not to think too much when in the pool (although all I do is think about my stroke when I'm in the pool, yeh?).  Thinking at home is preferred...  

Thanks.
Matt

 

sorry man. I read this 3 times and I'm not fully understanding the question. happy to answer if I can though...

2014-01-21 10:52 PM
in reply to: tjfry

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Subject: RE: correcting wide kick or scissors kick
Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by AdventureBear
Originally posted by snappingt Politely, I think you might be mistaking her breathing pattern and her turn of the body when she breathes for hip engagement. But from my experience, that stroke looks to be very shoulder driven.
I think it's just a difference in terminology then...here is what I'm seeing: Her right arm strokes, (she is not breathing) the right arm is more than halfway through the underwater stroke, but her torso has not yet turned, right hip & shoulder still down. her right leg begins its kick and at the earliest moments in the kick the torso rotation begins, the right arm finishes and the left shoulder/arm enter the water and extend. What am I missing?

 

I did my best to capture the shot at the same point in the kick. With Laure, she hasn't finished her kick and her opposite arm is already fully extended underwater, and her hips are pretty flat. With her shoulder's having already rotated, the kick is not really providing much more than stability. With Sun, he is kicking and pulling at about the same time, so that kick isn't following what the shoulders are doing, it's leading them.



Thanks for taking the time to do that TJ, I see what you're referring to now. Wonder what she feels when she swims?
2014-01-22 7:13 AM
in reply to: tjfry

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Austin, Texas
Subject: RE: correcting wide kick or scissors kick

Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Brain. Hurts. Now.  

This is great stuff - thanks!

Questions (if anyone has any excitement left for this!): I guess I'm not getting whether the rotation (and a kick to help rotation) is to pull harder through the middle of the stroke, or if you pull hard and the rotation then allows the other arm to extend the stroking arm to recover.  Or, gawd forbid, do you rotate to start the arm coming back (seems hard to do that)?  Argh - when does the rotation start??  When should it be most powerful or snappiest?   

Say the catch is done and you have a vertical forearm, and it's starting back and goes to the point where the upper arm is ~90 degrees to the long axis of the body (to the side).  Is the body rotation and kick used to pull harder through that middle portion of the arm stroke, or is the hardest part of the pull at the start of the stroke (right after getting the forearm vertical) and the rotation is more to get the body out of the arm's way and allow the other arm to fully extend forward?

 

Also, to a previous post, I noticed that my kick and timing does change depending on pace.  I suppose that is normal, from what I read in the above posts, but it just adds to the complexity!

While I AM trying to figure this out, I'm just swimming along and trying not to think too much when in the pool (although all I do is think about my stroke when I'm in the pool, yeh?).  Thinking at home is preferred...  

Thanks.
Matt

 sorry man. I read this 3 times and I'm not fully understanding the question. happy to answer if I can though...

Common problem with my posts (especially with swimming) - seriously.  Thanks for trying!    Trying again...

I can't figure when to rotate.  Just as my forearm is vertical and start the rotation to start the pull (not what I'm doing)?  As my arm is like halfway back (I do this, and rotate to both help keep that arm going back in a straightish line and also drive my other arm as far forward as I can)?  Or late in the pull to help more with recovery?

The middle one is what I kind of default to, as it *feels* like it gives a bit more power to the pull, helps extend my body and reach the other arm further forward (taller in the water) and allows a higher arm on recover (doesn't pinch my shoulder as much).  But, I'm not sure it's what I'm "supposed" to do (form in swimming isn't always intuitive).

Any help appreciated!

Matt

2014-01-22 9:49 AM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Expert
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200050025
The Woodlands, TX
Subject: RE: correcting wide kick or scissors kick

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by tjfry

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Brain. Hurts. Now.  

This is great stuff - thanks!

Questions (if anyone has any excitement left for this!): I guess I'm not getting whether the rotation (and a kick to help rotation) is to pull harder through the middle of the stroke, or if you pull hard and the rotation then allows the other arm to extend the stroking arm to recover.  Or, gawd forbid, do you rotate to start the arm coming back (seems hard to do that)?  Argh - when does the rotation start??  When should it be most powerful or snappiest?   

Say the catch is done and you have a vertical forearm, and it's starting back and goes to the point where the upper arm is ~90 degrees to the long axis of the body (to the side).  Is the body rotation and kick used to pull harder through that middle portion of the arm stroke, or is the hardest part of the pull at the start of the stroke (right after getting the forearm vertical) and the rotation is more to get the body out of the arm's way and allow the other arm to fully extend forward?

 

Also, to a previous post, I noticed that my kick and timing does change depending on pace.  I suppose that is normal, from what I read in the above posts, but it just adds to the complexity!

While I AM trying to figure this out, I'm just swimming along and trying not to think too much when in the pool (although all I do is think about my stroke when I'm in the pool, yeh?).  Thinking at home is preferred...  

Thanks.
Matt

 sorry man. I read this 3 times and I'm not fully understanding the question. happy to answer if I can though...

Common problem with my posts (especially with swimming) - seriously.  Thanks for trying!    Trying again...

I can't figure when to rotate.  Just as my forearm is vertical and start the rotation to start the pull (not what I'm doing)?  As my arm is like halfway back (I do this, and rotate to both help keep that arm going back in a straightish line and also drive my other arm as far forward as I can)?  Or late in the pull to help more with recovery?

The middle one is what I kind of default to, as it *feels* like it gives a bit more power to the pull, helps extend my body and reach the other arm further forward (taller in the water) and allows a higher arm on recover (doesn't pinch my shoulder as much).  But, I'm not sure it's what I'm "supposed" to do (form in swimming isn't always intuitive).

Any help appreciated!

Matt

Answer is yes. You're overthinking this whole thing. If you don't have an effective kick, you're just not going to be a hip guy. won't happen. If you do have a good kick, then you'll find a spot that works. If you 4 beat kick, you'll swim a little flatter than if you 2 beat or 6 beat. Lot's of variables here. Work on good shoulder rotation and see where kicking benefits you the most, and don't be afraid to experiment. If you "want" to be one or the other, that's a different equation.



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