General Discussion Triathlon Talk » How do you test your FTP ? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 4
 
 
How do you test your FTP ?
OptionResults
I do a 40km/1hr TT1 Votes - [1.82%]
I do a 20' test and take a % of that11 Votes - [20%]
I do a short (3-5min) and a long (20-30min) and calculate it8 Votes - [14.55%]
I do the Hunter/Coggan test 20' with 5' all out warm up7 Votes - [12.73%]
I do the TrainerRoad 8min protocol5 Votes - [9.09%]
I do the TrainerRoad 20min protocol15 Votes - [27.27%]
I do a blood lactate test0 Votes - [0%]
I do a ramp test and take % of MAP0 Votes - [0%]
I cherry pick results from my training0 Votes - [0%]
I don't ever test5 Votes - [9.09%]
What's an FTP ?3 Votes - [5.45%]

2014-01-19 3:50 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

User image

Extreme Veteran
635
50010025
Ajo
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by bcagle25
Originally posted by JAYCT Ben, not sure what you are saying. Someone needs a coach to figure out how hard to ride? It isn't that hard to do intervals around 95% of your ftp. Then, go train long at 2-4hrs at 85% and see how you feel. If you ride a few thousand miles with a power meter and can't figure out where you blow up, then yes get a coach but it isn't rocket science.
I am talking more about races. Joe Friel says for example IM's should be in a window of 65-75% of FTP. I take that as a rule of thumb, not everyone can ride that intensely and some can ride much harder (pointy end of the field). I know people that ride IM at 80% and run well off the bike, and others that can't ride 65%. The point I am making is that many athletes take these windows of 65-75% FTP for an Ironman an as absolute, and I disagree. Use it as a platform and see how your rides are, how well do you ride, and in races how close to your open run times do you run. The coach comment was more addressed to those that do not know what these numbers mean, how to analyze them, etc. That is what a coach can help with. Everyone's FTP numbers are different as is their fitness levels. And yes many athletes need a coach to learn how hard to ride, IM bike vs run splits make that very apparent in every IM I have ever seen. With regards to testing, I think testing is good, but taking a single session for values is one piece of the pie and a way to measure gains. However, taking a look at a seasons worth of rides can give better and IMO more accurate numbers.

I'm mostly interested in setting a target for tri racing that will lead to an optimized bike/run combination, so I definitely go more from looking across key training sessions in the month or two leading up to a race.  Until today, I hadn't actually tested like this since (IIRC) a year and a half ago.  But, I rode in lots of races of different distances and did lots of training intervals.

Together, those gave me a very good idea of what to target (and I backed off what I thought I could hold and run well off in my only HIM at the end of the season - which I still think was the right approach, but I kinda wonder if it was totally dialed in).

Ben, how do you set a target for a RACE (say HIM length)?  Are there guides you use from previous races wrt percentage of run time compared to open run time, or are there other key indicators you use?

A bit orthogonal to the OP of how you test your FTP, but races are where the rubber meets the road (and, for me, the only reason to test - well, excepting testing on a Strava segment for fun).  

Thanks!

Matt




Matt, for a HIM, or any race really I take a look at prior races and look at my training rides going into a race specific block of training. For example I will be racing NOLA 70.3 this April. I will use prior races as well as some of my training rides to gauge what level of % of my FTP I can hold for NOLA. Then in training in race specific sessions I will target the wattage for that % with my current FTP I am testing/riding at. Through prior experience I have found I can race HIM at an 80-85% window usually. Then a week before the race I set target watts, having a specific watt number I think is too hard. I put a cap on my watts for flats, hills, etc. I will also use RPE and HR as indicators as well to gauge my effort level.

Past 6 months looking on a mean maximal power curve is a great tool for this to analyze.

I have some specific workouts with intervals that I use depending on the terrain of the course (hilly, flat) that I will test ride my expected wattage window and usually run a few miles off the bike to see how I feel. I also might ride just above my selected wattage on training rides sometimes to test the waters.

Hope I am making sense out of this, sometimes its hard for me to describe over the forum.


I think that you and I follow a similar approach... good information for everyone.


2014-01-20 6:05 AM
in reply to: tomspharmacy

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by tomspharmacy

Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5
Ben, how do you set a target for a RACE (say HIM length)?  


Matt, for a HIM, or any race really I take a look at prior races and look at my training rides going into a race specific block of training. For example I will be racing NOLA 70.3 this April. I will use prior races as well as some of my training rides to gauge what level of % of my FTP I can hold for NOLA. Then in training in race specific sessions I will target the wattage for that % with my current FTP I am testing/riding at. Through prior experience I have found I can race HIM at an 80-85% window usually. Then a week before the race I set target watts, having a specific watt number I think is too hard. I put a cap on my watts for flats, hills, etc. I will also use RPE and HR as indicators as well to gauge my effort level.

Past 6 months looking on a mean maximal power curve is a great tool for this to analyze.

I have some specific workouts with intervals that I use depending on the terrain of the course (hilly, flat) that I will test ride my expected wattage window and usually run a few miles off the bike to see how I feel. I also might ride just above my selected wattage on training rides sometimes to test the waters.

Hope I am making sense out of this, sometimes its hard for me to describe over the forum.


I think that you and I follow a similar approach... good information for everyone.


While 80-85% is the number often quoted (kind of like the 67-70 for IM), a lot of MOP athletes won't pull off a "good" run on those numbers. I define a good run as 7, maybe 8 minutes of their open HM time.

One would argue that if they can't do 80% maybe their FTP is wrong...but that's a whole other conversation. From the results of this poll I suspect that is the case :-)
2014-01-20 9:35 AM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Expert
2355
20001001001002525
Madison, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by tomspharmacy

Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5
Ben, how do you set a target for a RACE (say HIM length)?  


Matt, for a HIM, or any race really I take a look at prior races and look at my training rides going into a race specific block of training. For example I will be racing NOLA 70.3 this April. I will use prior races as well as some of my training rides to gauge what level of % of my FTP I can hold for NOLA. Then in training in race specific sessions I will target the wattage for that % with my current FTP I am testing/riding at. Through prior experience I have found I can race HIM at an 80-85% window usually. Then a week before the race I set target watts, having a specific watt number I think is too hard. I put a cap on my watts for flats, hills, etc. I will also use RPE and HR as indicators as well to gauge my effort level.

Past 6 months looking on a mean maximal power curve is a great tool for this to analyze.

I have some specific workouts with intervals that I use depending on the terrain of the course (hilly, flat) that I will test ride my expected wattage window and usually run a few miles off the bike to see how I feel. I also might ride just above my selected wattage on training rides sometimes to test the waters.

Hope I am making sense out of this, sometimes its hard for me to describe over the forum.


I think that you and I follow a similar approach... good information for everyone.


While 80-85% is the number often quoted (kind of like the 67-70 for IM), a lot of MOP athletes won't pull off a "good" run on those numbers. I define a good run as 7, maybe 8 minutes of their open HM time.

One would argue that if they can't do 80% maybe their FTP is wrong...but that's a whole other conversation. From the results of this poll I suspect that is the case :-)


Which is the exact reason why I suggest athletes look outside that window. Most are not strong enough, do not have the fitness, etc. To ride in that window and run well. Furthermore, when they do ride in that window and have a bad run they automatically assume it is nutritional, or run based since they rode within their power values of 80-85% when in reality is should've been lower.
2014-01-20 9:48 AM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Extreme Veteran
635
50010025
Ajo
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by tomspharmacy

Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5
Ben, how do you set a target for a RACE (say HIM length)?  


Matt, for a HIM, or any race really I take a look at prior races and look at my training rides going into a race specific block of training. For example I will be racing NOLA 70.3 this April. I will use prior races as well as some of my training rides to gauge what level of % of my FTP I can hold for NOLA. Then in training in race specific sessions I will target the wattage for that % with my current FTP I am testing/riding at. Through prior experience I have found I can race HIM at an 80-85% window usually. Then a week before the race I set target watts, having a specific watt number I think is too hard. I put a cap on my watts for flats, hills, etc. I will also use RPE and HR as indicators as well to gauge my effort level.

Past 6 months looking on a mean maximal power curve is a great tool for this to analyze.

I have some specific workouts with intervals that I use depending on the terrain of the course (hilly, flat) that I will test ride my expected wattage window and usually run a few miles off the bike to see how I feel. I also might ride just above my selected wattage on training rides sometimes to test the waters.

Hope I am making sense out of this, sometimes its hard for me to describe over the forum.


I think that you and I follow a similar approach... good information for everyone.


While 80-85% is the number often quoted (kind of like the 67-70 for IM), a lot of MOP athletes won't pull off a "good" run on those numbers. I define a good run as 7, maybe 8 minutes of their open HM time.

One would argue that if they can't do 80% maybe their FTP is wrong...but that's a whole other conversation. From the results of this poll I suspect that is the case :-)


Marc,

I noticed that you're putting a class together regarding power training and FTP. It sounds like it's timely as power availbe to new athletes is getting cheaper and more accessible than ever before. While I'm relatively new, just starting on my 3rd season, I have gone through the trial and error process, read and absorbed every power book and tidbit on the internet, and sort of a closet number cruncher. I'd certainly like to help folks attain their goals or set their goals appropriatley so that every new race is a good race, maybe with a PR.
2014-01-20 9:53 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

User image

Extreme Veteran
635
50010025
Ajo
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by tomspharmacy

Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5
Ben, how do you set a target for a RACE (say HIM length)?  


Matt, for a HIM, or any race really I take a look at prior races and look at my training rides going into a race specific block of training. For example I will be racing NOLA 70.3 this April. I will use prior races as well as some of my training rides to gauge what level of % of my FTP I can hold for NOLA. Then in training in race specific sessions I will target the wattage for that % with my current FTP I am testing/riding at. Through prior experience I have found I can race HIM at an 80-85% window usually. Then a week before the race I set target watts, having a specific watt number I think is too hard. I put a cap on my watts for flats, hills, etc. I will also use RPE and HR as indicators as well to gauge my effort level.

Past 6 months looking on a mean maximal power curve is a great tool for this to analyze.

I have some specific workouts with intervals that I use depending on the terrain of the course (hilly, flat) that I will test ride my expected wattage window and usually run a few miles off the bike to see how I feel. I also might ride just above my selected wattage on training rides sometimes to test the waters.

Hope I am making sense out of this, sometimes its hard for me to describe over the forum.


I think that you and I follow a similar approach... good information for everyone.


While 80-85% is the number often quoted (kind of like the 67-70 for IM), a lot of MOP athletes won't pull off a "good" run on those numbers. I define a good run as 7, maybe 8 minutes of their open HM time.

One would argue that if they can't do 80% maybe their FTP is wrong...but that's a whole other conversation. From the results of this poll I suspect that is the case :-)


Which is the exact reason why I suggest athletes look outside that window. Most are not strong enough, do not have the fitness, etc. To ride in that window and run well. Furthermore, when they do ride in that window and have a bad run they automatically assume it is nutritional, or run based since they rode within their power values of 80-85% when in reality is should've been lower.


You could be on to something here... I still remember what Bryan Dunn told me one time... on telling me why I failed on a run in a race, point blank he said... your fitness sucks!!! It cut to the bone and I thought that it was an insult at first, and I was comparing myself to others that I admired, but I was just beginning in the sport... I blamed nutrition, salts, electrolytes, etc.. but he went on to explain that I wasn't able to pace myself at what I had tried for the swim and bike, and sustain it for the entire race, and thus had nothing for the run... he said further training properly will take care of things.

2014-01-20 9:58 AM
in reply to: tomspharmacy


190
100252525
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by tomspharmacy

You could be on to something here... I still remember what Bryan Dunn told me one time... on telling me why I failed on a run in a race, point blank he said... your fitness sucks!!! It cut to the bone and I thought that it was an insult at first, and I was comparing myself to others that I admired, but I was just beginning in the sport... I blamed nutrition, salts, electrolytes, etc.. but he went on to explain that I wasn't able to pace myself at what I had tried for the swim and bike, and sustain it for the entire race, and thus had nothing for the run... he said further training properly will take care of things.


Fine tuning is icing on the cake. You didn't have a cake yet.


2014-01-20 10:24 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by tomspharmacy

Originally posted by bcagle25

Which is the exact reason why I suggest athletes look outside that window. Most are not strong enough, do not have the fitness, etc. To ride in that window and run well. Furthermore, when they do ride in that window and have a bad run they automatically assume it is nutritional, or run based since they rode within their power values of 80-85% when in reality is should've been lower.


You could be on to something here... I still remember what Bryan Dunn told me one time... on telling me why I failed on a run in a race, point blank he said... your fitness sucks!!! It cut to the bone and I thought that it was an insult at first, and I was comparing myself to others that I admired, but I was just beginning in the sport... I blamed nutrition, salts, electrolytes, etc.. but he went on to explain that I wasn't able to pace myself at what I had tried for the swim and bike, and sustain it for the entire race, and thus had nothing for the run... he said further training properly will take care of things.



Tom, if this is your 3rd season, I am scared, very scared....Please stay out of my AG...I saw your power numbers :-)

I saw your Arizona power numbers and your St-George power numbers..very impressive and you are very close to 85%, correct ? I also think you cramped up in St-George ? if so, run fitness or over biking ?

I guess where I get worried is when I see 80-85% numbers quoted and people take those as "normal". I know I did and I paid the price chasing those numbers

I would say very few people can bike at those numbers and run.
First of all, they work better when you are on the course 2h20min, which most people aren't. Second, they assume a ton of fitness those most people don't
I would like to see someone's files that a) Rode at 80%+ b) Ran at HM+7min
I bet they are very rare.

BTW, Bryann told me my fitness sucked also :-) He also pointed me in the right direction for the run. And let's not forget....it's all about the run (takes cover)



Edited by marcag 2014-01-20 10:26 AM
2014-01-20 11:45 AM
in reply to: marcag

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Think you're in the right idea there. Adding up the TSS for a 3 hr (or more) ride comes up to some big numbers. Would speculate that people who can push those would have either (or both) of more power or a flatter power profile.

2014-01-20 2:51 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Extreme Veteran
635
50010025
Ajo
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by tomspharmacy

Originally posted by bcagle25

Which is the exact reason why I suggest athletes look outside that window. Most are not strong enough, do not have the fitness, etc. To ride in that window and run well. Furthermore, when they do ride in that window and have a bad run they automatically assume it is nutritional, or run based since they rode within their power values of 80-85% when in reality is should've been lower.


You could be on to something here... I still remember what Bryan Dunn told me one time... on telling me why I failed on a run in a race, point blank he said... your fitness sucks!!! It cut to the bone and I thought that it was an insult at first, and I was comparing myself to others that I admired, but I was just beginning in the sport... I blamed nutrition, salts, electrolytes, etc.. but he went on to explain that I wasn't able to pace myself at what I had tried for the swim and bike, and sustain it for the entire race, and thus had nothing for the run... he said further training properly will take care of things.



Tom, if this is your 3rd season, I am scared, very scared....Please stay out of my AG...I saw your power numbers :-)

I saw your Arizona power numbers and your St-George power numbers..very impressive and you are very close to 85%, correct ? I also think you cramped up in St-George ? if so, run fitness or over biking ?

I guess where I get worried is when I see 80-85% numbers quoted and people take those as "normal". I know I did and I paid the price chasing those numbers

I would say very few people can bike at those numbers and run.
First of all, they work better when you are on the course 2h20min, which most people aren't. Second, they assume a ton of fitness those most people don't
I would like to see someone's files that a) Rode at 80%+ b) Ran at HM+7min
I bet they are very rare.

BTW, Bryann told me my fitness sucked also :-) He also pointed me in the right direction for the run. And let's not forget....it's all about the run (takes cover)




At SOMA, I went by the window of stay above XXXw and not go above XXXw for too long... with sharp hills on the course, I had short spikes but tried to maintain steady at just below the ceiling, then the rest of the way at the lower end... I also did by feel. On the run, the first 10k was ok about a 7:18 right on target, but I was slowing down starting at the 8th mile, the last 10k was a grind.

At St. George, I was on target with watts goal, but TOTALLY underestimated the difficulty of the course, esp. the 8 mile climb from 37 to 45 miles. I lost 4 positions on that climb. I also burned major candles on it, my lowest gear was a 42/25, needlesstosay, I struggled to maintain a cadence above 50 rpm and at times just paused to catch my breath. I did however, work on significantly more hill strength over the summer, picked up a used MTB and went up the mountains. That probably set me up for the SOMA and taught me something valuable.

Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.

Anyways, in training, I have blown myself up so many times, that I've learned what I can do and shouldn't do during a race. As for 80%, that is my eventual goal for pacing an HIM, since I feel pretty fresh at the intensity, but I need to get an FTP of 360 first, then I can cruise at 280 to 300 watts, sorry, you probably didn't want to hear that... ;-)

But, you mentioned about the 80 to 85% window, that is Coggan/Allen's thing... I lived by the book from the very beginning and thus just did it "by the book". When I did it, I didn't know any better, so ignorance was bliss. I figured that I'd just keep pacing right at the "book" and if I failed in a run, it's because I just needed more strength and endurance, so I just kept extending my training sufferfests. It sounds deranged, doesn't it?

Edited by tomspharmacy 2014-01-20 2:56 PM
2014-01-20 3:51 PM
in reply to: tomspharmacy

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by tomspharmacy
Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.


Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above.

The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk.

Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.
2014-01-20 6:51 PM
in reply to: marcag

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tomspharmacy Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.
Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above. The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk. Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.

A good run has never brought that video game feel a strong bike has. 



2014-01-20 7:33 PM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tomspharmacy Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.
Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above. The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk. Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.

A good run has never brought that video game feel a strong bike has. 

Bike for show, run for dough!  That won't change.

2014-01-20 7:34 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Elite
7783
50002000500100100252525
PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tomspharmacy Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.
Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above. The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk. Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.

A good run has never brought that video game feel a strong bike has. 

Bike for show, run for dough!  That won't change.

What do us swimmers get?

2014-01-20 7:35 PM
in reply to: axteraa

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tomspharmacy Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.
Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above. The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk. Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.

A good run has never brought that video game feel a strong bike has. 

Bike for show, run for dough!  That won't change.

What do us swimmers get?

You get to be in the game...no swim, no game.

2014-01-20 9:11 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tomspharmacy Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.
Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above. The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk. Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.

A good run has never brought that video game feel a strong bike has. 

Bike for show, run for dough!  That won't change.

My best runs haven't gotten me anything!

2014-01-20 9:20 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Veteran
2842
200050010010010025
Austin, Texas
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Interesting turn to pacing…  Warning - some wild azzed speculation, a long post (even for me) and number play below.  

I definitely had a good experience with HR as the target and using power to limit short term excursions (kept me honest on hills) - but only because I had just gotten the PM for the P2C the day before the race and had no choice but to use HR at Timberman (only HIM I've done), else I'd have just ridden a power number.  It's interesting how well the HR method worked overall, especially with power for short term alerts to burning matches that HR would only be able to tell me I had burnt after the fact.

Targeted 141bpm and not above 151 max (Marc, you might remember making those suggestions - which saved my bacon, as I would have otherwise targeted too high! Thanks again) and watched the W to keep excursions under 300W if possible (I was used to riding with power from my road bike).

Rode at 140 bpm avg (only above 151 for the first mile or so out of T1).  Weighted avg power was 212W and avg was 207W.  I guesstimated my FTP at ~250W, and Strava now estimates it was the same based on the previous few months of road bike rides (which might have been higher than on the P2), but OTOH my FTP might have been higher given a recent test on the tri bike (*might* have been ~265-270W, as I was riding a lot then).  So, call 250W a reasonable estimate, if imperfect.

Power ended up between ~78 and 85% depending on what my FTP was (Strava called it an "85% intensity" ride - however they get that number).  I ran about 5 minutes slower than a previous HM PR, but I think it was closer to 7' slower than I "could" have run an open HM at that point (hadn't raced a HM in 6 months but was running much better in training).  Ended with not much in the tank, and it was a well executed race for me.

My HR was ~78% of max (probably a little higher, as my biking HRmax is a few beats lower than running - so call it ~80%).  Pretty close to my W as a % of FTP...

TLDR:

So, is there a ratio of percentage of HR to % of FTP to optimize the bike/run, I wonder?  I know it all depends on zones and such (mine tend to compress a bit when I'm actually in shape, and I can hold a higher percentage of max - good thing, or I'd never finish!).

Is that what others who've had a good run after a race see?  I wonder if having them close to one another (and not above a certain number) is a good target for then being able to run, as I would guess that a modest bump in W from there would would have led to a disproportionately larger bump in HR and a blowup on the run.

Just wondering - got to pass the time somehow, right?  

Matt



2014-01-20 9:22 PM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Veteran
2842
200050010010010025
Austin, Texas
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tomspharmacy Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.
Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above. The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk. Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.

A good run has never brought that video game feel a strong bike has. 

Bike for show, run for dough!  That won't change.

My best runs haven't gotten me anything!

No, but with your current riding, that axiom might be a bit off.  You could swim/bike/jog and place well!  Or at least win the bike…  

2014-01-20 9:41 PM
in reply to: brigby1

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tomspharmacy Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.
Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above. The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk. Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.

A good run has never brought that video game feel a strong bike has. 

Bike for show, run for dough!  That won't change.

My best runs haven't gotten me anything!

Then you aren't fast enough.

2014-01-20 11:17 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Extreme Veteran
635
50010025
Ajo
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tomspharmacy Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.
Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above. The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk. Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.

A good run has never brought that video game feel a strong bike has. 

Bike for show, run for dough!  That won't change.

My best runs haven't gotten me anything!

Then you aren't fast enough.




I admire good swimmers, true situation recently with me... I was a Scottsdale YMCA a couple of weekends ago... about 15 minutes later a 30-something guy came in to a lay away from me... I wasn't paying attention but I was trying to pace him, he was faster... then during a rest, I watched him... beautitful and gracefull... he looked effortless and ripping off 1:20's in a 50m pool. I tried to leave when he turned and he'd be half way back by the time I turned... then I watched more and saw his perfect mail slot hand entries, his splashless swimming technique... I counted his strokes per length and timing... and thought just mimic him... well I did as best as possible, and my 1:35's went to 1:30's on a similar effort... I learned something that day, very valuable, take it to the bank, unfortunately I can't practice here. I wish that I could swim more, but I don't have access to a pool for year round practice... all of my coaches say, I should be at least 3-4 minutes faster in the swim, but oh well, never will know living here in this town.

For pacing, I have read that running at 80% of max hr, for example is similar as 75% of max on the bike, IE that the delta is around 5%, but that's just what I read... my 60' LTHR for biking is within 2 to 3 beats less than running LTHR... but when I started my biking threshold was 10 beats lower... so it's moved up is almost the same as running. It took me a lot of RPE efforts to get it closer... I've learned that I have 2 feelings in my body... first, I hit a minor lactate point at/around 160 and it hurts a bit for a few minutes, but then as my heart revs up, I can get past that point and move it to 165 where my breathing is heavy and rythmic, but not anaerobic, I reach that point about 169 beats, so in a 40k TT, I like to get past 160 (and it hurts for about 5 to 10 minutes), then things settle within my body and I can then ride between 161 to 168. Max is 177/176.
2014-01-20 11:19 PM
in reply to: tomspharmacy

User image

Extreme Veteran
635
50010025
Ajo
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by tomspharmacy

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tomspharmacy Running, pfft, I guess that I'm doing alright, but it's just not fun for me. I struggle... I was at the OLY in SEPT, where I went apesh*t on the bike and blew up and ran 3 to 4 minutes slower than I could have. I walked out of transition and for the first mile.
Trust me on this one...a good run is the most beautiful thing in triathlon. The feeling of passing people walking, looking up, targeting a person and running them down, it's an amazing feeling. Well worth proper pacing on the bike, which I strongly believe if less than has been quoted above. The worst feeling in triathlon...being forced to a walk. Just an opinion from a guy that always plays catch up and gets smoked by the fast riders.

A good run has never brought that video game feel a strong bike has. 

Bike for show, run for dough!  That won't change.

My best runs haven't gotten me anything!

Then you aren't fast enough.




I admire good swimmers, true situation recently with me... I was a Scottsdale YMCA a couple of weekends ago... about 15 minutes later a 30-something guy came in to a lay away from me... I wasn't paying attention but I was trying to pace him, he was faster... then during a rest, I watched him... beautitful and gracefull... he looked effortless and ripping off 1:20's in a 50m pool. I tried to leave when he turned and he'd be half way back by the time I turned... then I watched more and saw his perfect mail slot hand entries, his splashless swimming technique... I counted his strokes per length and timing... and thought just mimic him... well I did as best as possible, and my 1:35's went to 1:30's on a similar effort... I learned something that day, very valuable, take it to the bank, unfortunately I can't practice here. I wish that I could swim more, but I don't have access to a pool for year round practice... all of my coaches say, I should be at least 3-4 minutes faster in the swim, but oh well, never will know living here in this town.

For pacing, I have read that running at 80% of max hr, for example is similar as 75% of max on the bike, IE that the delta is around 5%, but that's just what I read... my 60' LTHR for biking is within 2 to 3 beats less than running LTHR... but when I started my biking threshold was 10 beats lower... so it's moved up is almost the same as running. It took me a lot of RPE efforts to get it closer... I've learned that I have 2 feelings in my body... first, I hit a minor lactate point at/around 160 and it hurts a bit for a few minutes, but then as my heart revs up, I can get past that point and move it to 165 where my breathing is heavy and rythmic, but not anaerobic, I reach that point about 169 beats, so in a 40k TT, I like to get past 160 (and it hurts for about 5 to 10 minutes), then things settle within my body and I can then ride between 161 to 168. In the last 5k of the TT I go all out and hit my max HR at the finish line. Max is 177/176.
2014-01-21 6:11 AM
in reply to: axteraa

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by axteraa

What do us swimmers get?




Now there's an interesting question

Swimmers get to set a % of FTP target based on a gas tank that is close to 100% full
This year I went into Vegas with really strong fitness and lots of rides telling me I could do this and I could do that.
I gased myself on the swim for a piddly extra minute, rode below watt target and walked.
I don't want to blame only the swim but the lack of swim fitness takes away 25% of your gas allowance for the race.

Swim definitely plays a big part of the equation.





2014-01-21 8:05 AM
in reply to: tomspharmacy

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by tomspharmacy
At SOMA, I went by the window of stay above XXXw and not go above XXXw for too long... with sharp hills on the course, I had short spikes but tried to maintain steady at just below the ceiling, then the rest of the way at the lower end... I also did by feel. On the run, the first 10k was ok about a 7:18 right on target, but I was slowing down starting at the 8th mile, the last 10k was a grind.


Tom, just for hoots, what would be your open 10k run time and how much do you weigh ?
2014-01-21 8:43 AM
in reply to: marcag

User image

Extreme Veteran
635
50010025
Ajo
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by tomspharmacy
At SOMA, I went by the window of stay above XXXw and not go above XXXw for too long... with sharp hills on the course, I had short spikes but tried to maintain steady at just below the ceiling, then the rest of the way at the lower end... I also did by feel. On the run, the first 10k was ok about a 7:18 right on target, but I was slowing down starting at the 8th mile, the last 10k was a grind.


Tom, just for hoots, what would be your open 10k run time and how much do you weigh ?



I've never run a solo run event ever, unless you included the Army 2 mile fitness test. But based on my estimated VO2max of 52-ish, I'd guess 39 to 40 minutes. I have run 20 minute 5k's in training. I've run around a 40 to 41 minute 10k when I was doing 1600m intervals with 400m recoveries on the track last summer. I'm not a fast runner, at least comparing to agers that can run sub 1:32 HIM off the bike, I'm at a 5 to 6 minute disadvantage to those rabbits, that's why I focus on my cycling... I employ the Lance Armstrong / Starky method of racing. Right now I weigh 150, but during the summer/fall racing season I want to be around 145/146.
2014-01-21 9:04 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by axteraa

What do us swimmers get?

Now there's an interesting question Swimmers get to set a % of FTP target based on a gas tank that is close to 100% full This year I went into Vegas with really strong fitness and lots of rides telling me I could do this and I could do that. I gased myself on the swim for a piddly extra minute, rode below watt target and walked. I don't want to blame only the swim but the lack of swim fitness takes away 25% of your gas allowance for the race. Swim definitely plays a big part of the equation.

BUT - the guys who are REALLY swimmers can swim that 1:10 open water pace and not gas themselves.....it's what they do.  Again, I have to use the example I see every day.  My kid can swim a :50 second 100 and a 17:00 mile.  His HR after a 5:05 500 was 145.  His HR during his FTP effort was 185.  These guys can easily roll 1:10's/100 in the open water and then crank 25 mph on the bike....how that translates as far as effort regarding watts I don't know yet.... I'm still learning and I suspect I'll know alot more as he moves up to more Olympic distance racing and training with power.  But I also know this......once the swim and bike is done these freaks are still running 5:30 and under mile pace for a 5K, and under 6:00 for a 10K.

Can you or I do that with the swim and not be gassed for the bike?  I know I can't.  But fast swimmers don't get gassed.  Yes, I realize that we are talking about the pointy end of things.....but I would still maintain that there is MUCH to be gained by becoming a better, and therefore more efficient swimmer.  I was recently reading a post on ST about people workiing much harder on the swim and putting in 12-15,000 yards per week consitently and not seeing the improvement they were looking for.  That's a good Monday and Tuesday for swimmers, and they do it in ~ 4 hours.  For the rest of us, it's a weeks work. 

When you start really looking at the guys who are fast, and I know you do, it's mind boggling.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-01-21 9:08 AM
2014-01-21 11:01 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

New user
147
10025
Overland Park, KS
Subject: RE: How do you test your FTP ?
Originally posted by Left Brain

...12-15,000 yards per week consitently and not seeing the improvement they were looking for.  That's a good Monday and Tuesday for swimmers, and they do it in ~ 4 hours.  For the rest of us, it's a weeks work. 

When you start really looking at the guys who are fast, and I know you do, it's mind boggling.




Freshman year of college my roomate was a swimmer, 50 & 100 free and I ran track, sprints up to 400m so we trained for basically the same event duration. Most days he swam further than I ran, that's volume.
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » How do you test your FTP ? Rss Feed  
 
 
of 4
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Final FTP Bike Test Tonight!!!

Started by miami9296
Views: 1207 Posts: 6

2010-04-22 12:40 PM KathyG

FTP Testing on bike today...have question...

Started by miami9296
Views: 979 Posts: 3

2010-03-07 7:00 PM ADollar79

First good FTP test of the year

Started by newbz
Views: 1970 Posts: 10

2009-03-03 10:05 PM newbz

FTP bike test

Started by Plissken74
Views: 6531 Posts: 13

2009-01-15 1:08 PM JorgeM

FTP test on road or trainer

Started by Marvarnett
Views: 1956 Posts: 17

2008-09-24 11:25 AM Tri Take Me Away
RELATED ARTICLES
date : April 28, 2011
author : fivecents
comments : 5
What my first sprint distance triathlon taught me about myself.
 
date : March 4, 2010
author : Coach AJ
comments : 0
Have you been thinking about getting a lab test done to determine your Lactate Threshold number for generating precise heart-rate zones? Follow AJ as he subjects himself to this grueling test.
date : January 20, 2009
author : jasongootman
comments : 0
In this second part, we discuss indoor, outdoor and ramp functional threshold tests to determine your power training zones. Presented by Tri-Hard coaching and Fit Werx.
 
date : January 16, 2008
author : CPT
comments : 0
Colorado Premier Training runs Aaron through a stepwise power test on a Velotron to collect baseline data for future position changes.
date : August 17, 2007
author : mikericci
comments : 0
If you are just getting off the couch, chances are you aren’t in any shape for an all out 30 minute run or bike LT test. So, what should you do?
 
date : August 17, 2007
author : scoli121
comments : 6
I quickly browsed an article in Men's Health that talked about doing a triathlon, and how it wasn't really that hard. With a "tsk!" I quickly turned the page while thinking, "Yeah, right!"
date : June 5, 2006
author : Ontherun
comments : 0
A few months back I wrote an article about buying your next bike. Well now I have done it and wish to share my experience and choice with you.
 
date : June 4, 2006
author : mikericci
comments : 2
Field tests for determining your heart-rate zones with lactate threshold testing.