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2014-02-03 11:08 AM

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Subject: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
I know this is one of those things that just won't go away, but here's something to read if you still believe that setting the incline at 1% makes the treadmill "more like outdoor running" or that treadmill running is fundamentally different from outdoor running.

http://m.runnersworld.com/treadmills/biomechanics-expert-debunks-tr...

fwiw I have often done a lot of my run training on the treadmill with good results.



2014-02-03 11:13 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
I've always heard to up it a little to replicate running outside. I've always been told if you run at 0% incline that's like running downhill. It's nice to see that's not necessarily the case!
2014-02-03 11:28 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
Wow, so this is also evidence that I SHOULD up it to 1% when I'm doing 5k race paces and such?
2014-02-03 11:33 AM
in reply to: Danno77

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

This is how you get faster.   (perfectly SFW)

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9429229

 

 

2014-02-03 11:35 AM
in reply to: Danno77

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

Originally posted by Danno77 Wow, so this is also evidence that I SHOULD up it to 1% when I'm doing 5k race paces and such?

If you are running at faster than a 7:09 pace, according to the article.

2014-02-03 11:36 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
Originally posted by Left Brain

This is how you get faster.   (perfectly SFW)

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9429229

 

 



meh. I don't know what that equates to on the track, but it's gotta be 9second 100m or so. I don't think so.


2014-02-03 11:41 AM
in reply to: Danno77

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

Originally posted by Danno77
Originally posted by Left Brain

This is how you get faster.   (perfectly SFW)

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9429229

 

 

meh. I don't know what that equates to on the track, but it's gotta be 9second 100m or so. I don't think so.

I've done the overspeed treadmill work, and my kid is currently on week 4 of an 8 week (twice per week) program.  It works, but most of what they do on those treadmills is high incline and short intervals....much like hill work but very controlled and consistent.  For instance, one set may be 6 intervals of 10 seconds at 25% incline and 15 mph.  The "Cheetah Club" where we do the work is anyone who can run 21 mph for 8 seconds.  Anyone running 25 mph without a spotter (like in the video) is stupid....but it's still fun to watch.

2014-02-03 11:45 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
I pulled my left hamstring and my right hip flexor hurts and all I did was watch that video! lol

Does it take a bigger/longer than normal treadmill to do that stuff? When I do interval training on the YMCA treadmill I almost stride off of it and we are talking speeds half of that.
2014-02-03 11:47 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
How is that treadmill going to get your ready for using the ancillary muscles that are require for outside running? The little bumps in the road that you have to avoid and account for?

Micro-tears that occur on different surfaces. The body mechanic changes as well as the pace and body angle changes that you have to accommodate for while running outside.

These are the reasons I say to stay off the treadmill as much as possible. Just like the bike trainer.
2014-02-03 12:10 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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2014-02-03 12:24 PM
in reply to: Danno77

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

Originally posted by Danno77 I pulled my left hamstring and my right hip flexor hurts and all I did was watch that video! lol Does it take a bigger/longer than normal treadmill to do that stuff? When I do interval training on the YMCA treadmill I almost stride off of it and we are talking speeds half of that.

Yes...google "super treadmi8ll" or "overspeed treadmill" and you'll get better looks at it.  They have a much longer and wider surface and the motors are HUGE in order to keep the belt from any spippage at those speed.  They typicall go to 28 mph and 40% incline.  The workouts you can get from them are brutal.....but in the hands of a well trained operator/coach the work is gold for both endurance and speed, depending on which protocol they are using.



2014-02-03 12:32 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
It's more helpful to read the original blog post that the runners world article refernces

http://oeshshoes.com/2014/01/my-scientific-personal-advice-for-trea...
2014-02-03 1:19 PM
in reply to: Marvarnett

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

Originally posted by Marvarnett How is that treadmill going to get your ready for using the ancillary muscles that are require for outside running? The little bumps in the road that you have to avoid and account for? Micro-tears that occur on different surfaces. The body mechanic changes as well as the pace and body angle changes that you have to accommodate for while running outside. These are the reasons I say to stay off the treadmill as much as possible. Just like the bike trainer.

I think there is something to this. I avoid the treadmill at all costs, hate doing it and I think it enables bad form. I use the indoor track instead.

This has been my first winter with any sort of decent mileage on my bike trainer and my legs are giving me fits in places I have never had problems before. Got outside for a ride yesterday and no issues. The trainer is a necessary evil sometimes (when it is impossible to get outside) but I sure don't like using it and I seem to have more injury problems on it than off. 

2014-02-03 1:32 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

When people say set it at 1% simulate outdoor running, do they mean biometrically match?  Personally, I would never make the claims that the biometrics are the same, but I need to set it at 1% to get my HR vs pace to match.  I figure my body still realizes it's running UP at 1% and not flat...

2014-02-03 1:36 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

Originally posted by Aarondb4

Originally posted by Marvarnett How is that treadmill going to get your ready for using the ancillary muscles that are require for outside running? The little bumps in the road that you have to avoid and account for? Micro-tears that occur on different surfaces. The body mechanic changes as well as the pace and body angle changes that you have to accommodate for while running outside. These are the reasons I say to stay off the treadmill as much as possible. Just like the bike trainer.

I think there is something to this. I avoid the treadmill at all costs, hate doing it and I think it enables bad form. I use the indoor track instead.

This has been my first winter with any sort of decent mileage on my bike trainer and my legs are giving me fits in places I have never had problems before. Got outside for a ride yesterday and no issues. The trainer is a necessary evil sometimes (when it is impossible to get outside) but I sure don't like using it and I seem to have more injury problems on it than off. 

For speed work the premise I have been given is that a treadmilol, at high speed, actually promotes good form, especially if done with a mirror to watch your form..  We only use treadmills for speed work/intervals. All I know is that if you have bad form, you get thrown off the back.

2014-02-03 4:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
Originally posted by Aarondb4

Originally posted by Marvarnett How is that treadmill going to get your ready for using the ancillary muscles that are require for outside running? The little bumps in the road that you have to avoid and account for? Micro-tears that occur on different surfaces. The body mechanic changes as well as the pace and body angle changes that you have to accommodate for while running outside. These are the reasons I say to stay off the treadmill as much as possible. Just like the bike trainer.

I think there is something to this. I avoid the treadmill at all costs, hate doing it and I think it enables bad form. I use the indoor track instead.

This has been my first winter with any sort of decent mileage on my bike trainer and my legs are giving me fits in places I have never had problems before. Got outside for a ride yesterday and no issues. The trainer is a necessary evil sometimes (when it is impossible to get outside) but I sure don't like using it and I seem to have more injury problems on it than off. 


How is the indoor track any better at simulating the road outside?

Indoor track can actually be injury-inducing for some people because of the tight turns. And as long as you aren't setting a speed that's higher than your body can maintain, the treadmill is great for practicing good form. You can focus on form almost exclusively.

Indoor tracks are hard to come by around here (only one now, used to be none) but I do a lot of my winter training on the treadmill. But even so I'd probably prefer the treadmill over an indoor track. I prefer to run outside as much as possible, but often times the treadmill is a better option. And I get my training done and enjoy it. I run outside on many different surfaces (road, trail, track, etc.) so the treadmill is just one more surface-- pretty similar to an outdoor track for my paces and how I feel.

I understand that some people prefer not to use the treadmill; in the end it just comes down to personal preference. But treadmill running can definitely be a good alternative to outdoor running-- and many professional runners and triathletes use them.

Edited by jennifer_runs 2014-02-03 4:18 PM


2014-02-03 4:06 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear


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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
Originally posted by AdventureBear

It's more helpful to read the original blog post that the runners world article refernces

http://oeshshoes.com/2014/01/my-scientific-personal-advice-for-trea...


Thanks for that. The points are the same but she gives more detail in the original blog post.
2014-02-03 4:25 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

My $0.02.

I don't really enjoy treadmill running nearly as much as outdoors - but I'm glad it's there for me when I need it.

that a HR of 150bpm on a treadmill is the same as a HR of 150bpm outside.  

Mills are great when:

1.  the weather isn't to your liking.

2.  you're injured, and you don't want to find yourself 5mi from home when your PF flairs up.  Easier just to step off.

3.  for controlled workouts, such as incline, intervals, very specific pacing.  hard to duplicate on the outdoor terrain where I run, as it's hilly.

4.  hotel fitness room in a strange/unsafe area to run.

 

I don't diss the 'mill.  they're handy training tools.  As for if a 7:20 pace on the mill is the same as a 7:20 pace outside- does it really matter?  Is your outside flat and never have any wind (or the wind is a tailwind exactly equal to your pace).  I presume that's why mills are coming out the same in slower paced running.  faster than a 7:09 pace, I guess the wind resistance starts to become significant enough to start seeing the difference.

2014-02-03 5:15 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
what about people who do it to 8% and hold on tight to the end?

I find this very interesting. I might have to lower it to 0 and just increase my speed. I need to build that up.
2014-02-03 7:25 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
Originally posted by morey000

My $0.02.

I don't really enjoy treadmill running nearly as much as outdoors - but I'm glad it's there for me when I need it.

that a HR of 150bpm on a treadmill is the same as a HR of 150bpm outside.  

Mills are great when:

1.  the weather isn't to your liking.

2.  you're injured, and you don't want to find yourself 5mi from home when your PF flairs up.  Easier just to step off.

3.  for controlled workouts, such as incline, intervals, very specific pacing.  hard to duplicate on the outdoor terrain where I run, as it's hilly.

4.  hotel fitness room in a strange/unsafe area to run.

 



^ Exactly, mills are not as enjoyable as running outdoors but when family, weather, travel happen it gives a person more options to stick to training. I was doing manual hill repeats on my gyms mill the other day and discovered it had a negative incline ability, anyone know what the purpose or concept behind that is?
2014-02-03 8:41 PM
in reply to: PowerRuff

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
While I haven't written any similar research, my read on one of the articles linked into the one references said no differences at 1% BUT this article said there are significant differences at other % inclines such as 2% or 3%: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8887211

Maybe I'm misreading or applying what was stated, but it looks to me, that 1% is no different that 0% or running outside, but 2% or 3% incline requires more effort than running on flat.

All this matters to me, living in Fargo, ND where you can see the curvature of the earth from a 3 story building :-)


2014-02-03 8:52 PM
in reply to: Marvarnett


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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
Originally posted by Marvarnett

How is that treadmill going to get your ready for using the ancillary muscles that are require for outside running? The little bumps in the road that you have to avoid and account for?

Micro-tears that occur on different surfaces. The body mechanic changes as well as the pace and body angle changes that you have to accommodate for while running outside.

These are the reasons I say to stay off the treadmill as much as possible. Just like the bike trainer.



"These are the reasons I say to stay off the treadmill as much as possible."------For some of us, there is not enough daylight left after working a long day shift and treadmills fit in well. Running in dark/dim conditions at an older age is not something we look forward to.
2014-02-03 9:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth
Originally posted by Marvarnett

How is that treadmill going to get your ready for using the ancillary muscles that are require for outside running? The little bumps in the road that you have to avoid and account for?

Micro-tears that occur on different surfaces. The body mechanic changes as well as the pace and body angle changes that you have to accommodate for while running outside.

These are the reasons I say to stay off the treadmill as much as possible. Just like the bike trainer.


in a matter of specificity, both treadmill and bike trainer rank pretty high in the scientific literature and also any high performance training centers...

they are amazing tool that when use under the supervision of a experience coach, can be very effective.

right now in canada, with the ice storms, cold hard winter, it is a wise choice to get some hard session on the treadmill under controle environment with proper footing and no ice to derail the show.

we are doing a healthy those of it....great tool that bring great results

as for the 1%, it s really dependant of the models...some models already have this accounted for...some dont. I recommend running 1 to 2 % to prefer injury and reinforce good running form. lots of hill rep is another great technic with treadmill in winter. (the core of my group right now is doing the majority of the work at pace faster than 7min/miles)

Edited by jonnyo 2014-02-03 9:23 PM
2014-02-03 9:50 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

its 1%???? i've been doing 5% my for dreadmill runs and wondering how you all do it!

2014-02-03 9:55 PM
in reply to: Clempson

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Subject: RE: Busting the treadmill 1% incline myth

Originally posted by Clempson

its 1%???? i've been doing 5% my for dreadmill runs and wondering how you all do it!

Go to 25% and crank the mph to 15 for an interval set.........you'll start crying. 

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