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Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
OptionResults
I'd like one but it's too expensive87 Votes - [53.37%]
What do I need a coach for?31 Votes - [19.02%]
I enjoy writing my own plans23 Votes - [14.11%]
I use a pre-made plan12 Votes - [7.36%]
I use a custom training plan but not a coach (like BT Gold)3 Votes - [1.84%]
Coaches are dumb7 Votes - [4.29%]

2014-02-26 12:23 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Originally posted by marcag Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?

My big concern with this (from a coach's perspective) is - there are many variables I cannot control.

I would need to trust an athlete a great deal to follow my plan, and to report to me exactly what they were doing, how they were feeling, etc. Looking at your uploaded data is only part of the picture.

Also, race day performance becomes huge - what if you drink 4 beers the night before, then have to stop to poop 4 times on the bike? What if you were late to the start? What if you flat or blow out a tire? What if we get you what will likely get you to KQ, but more athletes than anticipated show up and blow your time out of the water? What if the weather is drastically different than planned? What if your bike shoes are stolen out of transition? Is that my fault as a coach? Should I not receive the bonus because I got you to the start line ready, but some outside factor (or the athlete themself) cause it not to go according to plan?

 



2014-02-26 12:25 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by jonnyo

I use a different approach, At Jonnyo Coaching, Results are guaranty or you are fired!

Coaching professional athletes is mostly all on % of gain by the athletes. if the athlete perform, the coach make ok/good money. I like it and it sometimes take 2-3 season until all the ''investement'' pay off but the challenge is fun!


obviously, this concept would not work for a age group athletes. A professional coach that make a living out of this need some kind of guaranty that he will get paid. a injury happening and it s over. Kind of like saying to doctor...you only get paid if you heal your patient. it aint that simple.



It would be great to see such a model applied to AGer and I don't see why it can't. it is no riskier than a pro

The numbers I am quoting are fictitious of course

I come to you and say I am 50 y/o, VDOT of 53, watts/kg of 3.8, 1:35/100m CSS. I am willing to invest 20 hours per week. I will pay you a nominal monthly fee (let's say $100) and if you get me to Kona you get a bonus of $5000.

You do the math, figure I need a 55 VDOT, 4 w/kg and 1:33/100m css based on historical results. Can you get me there ? Of course there are other details you would consider in your assessment.

If you truly believe in my potential to get there within 2 years, you would take this because it's $1200 x 2 years + $5000 = $7400 or more than $300 per month.

You do your math, figure out how much you need to improve me, calculate the risk and counter. I can assess how much you believe I can make it and I feel we are in this together.

Of course there has to be a way to guarantee payment if I do make it. Maybe there are interim payments if I hit 4w/kg on the way there or 55 VDOT.
You can fire me at any time if you do not feel I am going to make it.

Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?





Playing devil's advocate here...why would a coach take it? I don't see why anybody would. IMHO, there are just too many variables in a person's life for a coach to take that risk. If you're a pro and dedicated your list to training and things, that's different. But for weekend warriors like most of us are, there's just too many variables that a coach can't control - and thus the risk/reward proposition is not in a coaches favor.
2014-02-26 12:26 PM
in reply to: Guest

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
My answer would be "None of the Above". The lion's share of my training happens at odd hours. My AM routine start at about 0430, and my PM routine starts at about 2130. Now I do have informational resources that I do tap if I have problems. I work with a retired marathon runner (he's retired and working part-time, but still runs), and a distance bicyclist. At the Y, there is a guy on the workout floor who is more than willing to help (of course, that's what he's paid for, lol) and there's a lifeguard who helped me out on Monday when I needed it. I also have a friend who's been doing the Tri thing for a while and has 2 HIMs planned for this year. I am also a member of a new Tri team that was put together just for mutual support and training through my wife's work.

I figure that between pooling my resources like I have, and following 1 simple rule: "If it burns and you have a smile on your face, it's good. If it hurts, or you can't breathe, it's bad", I should do pretty well at the level I am at: Beginner.

Rick
2014-02-26 12:27 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by brucemorgan

Here's another hassle with coaching (and teams): personal rivalry / animosity between coaches getting in the way of their athletes.

The triathlon community in the Seattle area, especially Ironman, numbers in the low thousands, and a lot of people know each other. 

Here's the situation: coach A and coach B, who know each other from past associations, past teams, etc, clearly have fairly low opinions of each other. Not so obvious as trash talking, but it's clear.  If you're an athlete of coach A, but going to go for a weekend ride with your friends who are coached by coach B, then your ride conversation is what?  Defending "your" coach?  Debating who is "right"?  Discussing how coach A and coach B should just get along?  Shut up and ride? 

You get that crap from teams, too. There was a team in Seattle that had a falling out with a team member who started a "rival" team on the Eastside. So a few years pass, and you join the Eastside team, unaware that Seattle team members have "bad blood" with the Eastside team leader.  You show up in the Eastside kit at some event, and there are five folks from the Seattle team, and you try to have a little conversation but get the cold shoulder. You don't even know these people, but you're wearing the "wrong" kit so they won't talk to you? 

Cool story, bro, right? 




So don't move to Seattle for the tri community....heard. I have never heard of anything such as this much animosity between teams/coaches in triathlon ever. In fact in Madison lots of teams, coaches, clubs, etc collaborate together.
2014-02-26 12:31 PM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by marcag Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?

My big concern with this (from a coach's perspective) is - there are many variables I cannot control.

I would need to trust an athlete a great deal to follow my plan, and to report to me exactly what they were doing, how they were feeling, etc. Looking at your uploaded data is only part of the picture.

Also, race day performance becomes huge - what if you drink 4 beers the night before, then have to stop to poop 4 times on the bike? What if you were late to the start? What if you flat or blow out a tire? What if we get you what will likely get you to KQ, but more athletes than anticipated show up and blow your time out of the water? What if the weather is drastically different than planned? What if your bike shoes are stolen out of transition? Is that my fault as a coach? Should I not receive the bonus because I got you to the start line ready, but some outside factor (or the athlete themself) cause it not to go according to plan?

 

I think all of these situations can be mitigated by proper race preparation (including mental training). Not sure how they would factor into a "bonus" payment type of scheme if you are going solely for time or KQ or similar. But for example if the goal is to "finish" and an athlete gets a flat and quits the race, they are likely not prepped properly, either with tools or mental toughness or both.

2014-02-26 12:39 PM
in reply to: lisac957

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by marcag Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?

My big concern with this (from a coach's perspective) is - there are many variables I cannot control.

I would need to trust an athlete a great deal to follow my plan, and to report to me exactly what they were doing, how they were feeling, etc. Looking at your uploaded data is only part of the picture.

Also, race day performance becomes huge - what if you drink 4 beers the night before, then have to stop to poop 4 times on the bike? What if you were late to the start? What if you flat or blow out a tire? What if we get you what will likely get you to KQ, but more athletes than anticipated show up and blow your time out of the water? What if the weather is drastically different than planned? What if your bike shoes are stolen out of transition? Is that my fault as a coach? Should I not receive the bonus because I got you to the start line ready, but some outside factor (or the athlete themself) cause it not to go according to plan?

 

I think all of these situations can be mitigated by proper race preparation (including mental training). Not sure how they would factor into a "bonus" payment type of scheme if you are going solely for time or KQ or similar. But for example if the goal is to "finish" and an athlete gets a flat and quits the race, they are likely not prepped properly, either with tools or mental toughness or both.

My point is that if somethings happens, like if you're looking to KQ, you blow out a tire, have to wait for SAG - does that affect how you pay your coach?



2014-02-26 12:39 PM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming


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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by marcag Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?

My big concern with this (from a coach's perspective) is - there are many variables I cannot control.

I would need to trust an athlete a great deal to follow my plan, and to report to me exactly what they were doing, how they were feeling, etc. Looking at your uploaded data is only part of the picture.

Also, race day performance becomes huge - what if you drink 4 beers the night before, then have to stop to poop 4 times on the bike? What if you were late to the start? What if you flat or blow out a tire? What if we get you what will likely get you to KQ, but more athletes than anticipated show up and blow your time out of the water? What if the weather is drastically different than planned? What if your bike shoes are stolen out of transition? Is that my fault as a coach? Should I not receive the bonus because I got you to the start line ready, but some outside factor (or the athlete themself) cause it not to go according to plan?

 

 

Totally agree with you, which is why AG coaching standards are tough to measure.

 

In the pro/elite ranks though, you'd better believe that you pay for performance. You don't win, you get dumped in many cases. Of course, pros encounter fewer of the life issues that interfere with training/racing since it's their job, so not an equal comparison with AGer coaching, but just making the point that coaching for results and nothing but results, is very real in pro/elite coaching of all sports. 

2014-02-26 12:42 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by marcag Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?

My big concern with this (from a coach's perspective) is - there are many variables I cannot control.

I would need to trust an athlete a great deal to follow my plan, and to report to me exactly what they were doing, how they were feeling, etc. Looking at your uploaded data is only part of the picture.

Also, race day performance becomes huge - what if you drink 4 beers the night before, then have to stop to poop 4 times on the bike? What if you were late to the start? What if you flat or blow out a tire? What if we get you what will likely get you to KQ, but more athletes than anticipated show up and blow your time out of the water? What if the weather is drastically different than planned? What if your bike shoes are stolen out of transition? Is that my fault as a coach? Should I not receive the bonus because I got you to the start line ready, but some outside factor (or the athlete themself) cause it not to go according to plan?

 

 

Totally agree with you, which is why AG coaching standards are tough to measure.

 

In the pro/elite ranks though, you'd better believe that you pay for performance. You don't win, you get dumped in many cases. Of course, pros encounter fewer of the life issues that interfere with training/racing since it's their job, so not an equal comparison with AGer coaching, but just making the point that coaching for results and nothing but results, is very real in pro/elite coaching of all sports. 

And pros get $$ when they win. A pre-determined amount of that $ goes to the coach. It's already set up for pro coached.

2014-02-26 12:52 PM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by LarchmontTri

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by jonnyo

I use a different approach, At Jonnyo Coaching, Results are guaranty or you are fired!

Coaching professional athletes is mostly all on % of gain by the athletes. if the athlete perform, the coach make ok/good money. I like it and it sometimes take 2-3 season until all the ''investement'' pay off but the challenge is fun!


obviously, this concept would not work for a age group athletes. A professional coach that make a living out of this need some kind of guaranty that he will get paid. a injury happening and it s over. Kind of like saying to doctor...you only get paid if you heal your patient. it aint that simple.



It would be great to see such a model applied to AGer and I don't see why it can't. it is no riskier than a pro

The numbers I am quoting are fictitious of course

I come to you and say I am 50 y/o, VDOT of 53, watts/kg of 3.8, 1:35/100m CSS. I am willing to invest 20 hours per week. I will pay you a nominal monthly fee (let's say $100) and if you get me to Kona you get a bonus of $5000.

You do the math, figure I need a 55 VDOT, 4 w/kg and 1:33/100m css based on historical results. Can you get me there ? Of course there are other details you would consider in your assessment.

If you truly believe in my potential to get there within 2 years, you would take this because it's $1200 x 2 years + $5000 = $7400 or more than $300 per month.

You do your math, figure out how much you need to improve me, calculate the risk and counter. I can assess how much you believe I can make it and I feel we are in this together.

Of course there has to be a way to guarantee payment if I do make it. Maybe there are interim payments if I hit 4w/kg on the way there or 55 VDOT.
You can fire me at any time if you do not feel I am going to make it.

Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?





Playing devil's advocate here...why would a coach take it? I don't see why anybody would. IMHO, there are just too many variables in a person's life for a coach to take that risk. If you're a pro and dedicated your list to training and things, that's different. But for weekend warriors like most of us are, there's just too many variables that a coach can't control - and thus the risk/reward proposition is not in a coaches favor.


Same reason he would take on a pro at a % of earnings. He has the potential of more than $300 per month. Maybe the $5000 is not enough. Maybe it should be $10,000. Maybe if the target is much easier it should be $1000. But it's a form of pay for results.

There needs to be a minimal per month paid, absolutely.

If I were a coach and I truly believed in my ability, my athlete's ability, I would take.
2014-02-26 12:57 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by marcag

Same reason he would take on a pro at a % of earnings. He has the potential of more than $300 per month. Maybe the $5000 is not enough. Maybe it should be $10,000. Maybe if the target is much easier it should be $1000. But it's a form of pay for results.

There needs to be a minimal per month paid, absolutely.

If I were a coach and I truly believed in my ability, my athlete's ability, I would take.



Thanks for posting this - I had done this with the first triathlete I had ever coached after we had worked together for a season and had considered doing it as an option for athletes but haven't really thought much about it in the last couple of years.

I'm going to give this some more thought going forward - while I see some challenges I think there could be an upside to this approach that raises everyone's game as well.

Shane
2014-02-26 1:22 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by LarchmontTri

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by jonnyo

I use a different approach, At Jonnyo Coaching, Results are guaranty or you are fired!

Coaching professional athletes is mostly all on % of gain by the athletes. if the athlete perform, the coach make ok/good money. I like it and it sometimes take 2-3 season until all the ''investement'' pay off but the challenge is fun!


obviously, this concept would not work for a age group athletes. A professional coach that make a living out of this need some kind of guaranty that he will get paid. a injury happening and it s over. Kind of like saying to doctor...you only get paid if you heal your patient. it aint that simple.



It would be great to see such a model applied to AGer and I don't see why it can't. it is no riskier than a pro

The numbers I am quoting are fictitious of course

I come to you and say I am 50 y/o, VDOT of 53, watts/kg of 3.8, 1:35/100m CSS. I am willing to invest 20 hours per week. I will pay you a nominal monthly fee (let's say $100) and if you get me to Kona you get a bonus of $5000.

You do the math, figure I need a 55 VDOT, 4 w/kg and 1:33/100m css based on historical results. Can you get me there ? Of course there are other details you would consider in your assessment.

If you truly believe in my potential to get there within 2 years, you would take this because it's $1200 x 2 years + $5000 = $7400 or more than $300 per month.

You do your math, figure out how much you need to improve me, calculate the risk and counter. I can assess how much you believe I can make it and I feel we are in this together.

Of course there has to be a way to guarantee payment if I do make it. Maybe there are interim payments if I hit 4w/kg on the way there or 55 VDOT.
You can fire me at any time if you do not feel I am going to make it.

Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?





Playing devil's advocate here...why would a coach take it? I don't see why anybody would. IMHO, there are just too many variables in a person's life for a coach to take that risk. If you're a pro and dedicated your list to training and things, that's different. But for weekend warriors like most of us are, there's just too many variables that a coach can't control - and thus the risk/reward proposition is not in a coaches favor.

I think a coach might take it if he wants his/her stock to go up. Big success story potential, without risk there's no reward etc. Some people in life have a more "go for it" mentality than others. A would imagine a very good coach that is confident in his/her ability and can see potential in the individual to be coached would go for something like that. The contract between them might have to be carefully written of course but I can still see the potential...

Edited by reecealan 2014-02-26 1:23 PM


2014-02-26 2:10 PM
in reply to: marcag


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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by marcag
If you truly believe in my potential to get there within 2 years, you would take this because it's $1200 x 2 years + $5000 = $7400 or more than $300 per month.

You do your math, figure out how much you need to improve me, calculate the risk and counter. I can assess how much you believe I can make it and I feel we are in this together.

Of course there has to be a way to guarantee payment if I do make it. Maybe there are interim payments if I hit 4w/kg on the way there or 55 VDOT.
You can fire me at any time if you do not feel I am going to make it.

Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?

Sure, you fire the client who isn't likely to make that goal, but then you've also missed out on the bonus payment, bringing your compensation from $300+ a month to $100 a month. And heaven forbid the athlete find him/herself financially unable to meet the bonus commitment at the end of the day. Too many unknowns.

I don't have a problem with the idea of bonuses predicated on helping the client meet their goal, but I'm also aware that the coach has bills that need to be paid in the meantime. It's only $300 a month after two years. In the interim, it's $100 a month for a lot of work (I'm assuming - perhaps incorrectly - that coaching someone to KQ is a lot more work than coaching someone who just wants to finish the race upright and injury-free.)
2014-02-27 8:11 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Originally posted by bcagle25So don't move to Seattle for the tri community....heard. I have never heard of anything such as this much animosity between teams/coaches in triathlon ever. In fact in Madison lots of teams, coaches, clubs, etc collaborate together.

Well, really it's not that bad. I was just pointing out some negatives, there are lots of positives. Just a few bad apples and bad situations; that kind of thing happens anywhere because people are people and can act badly.

San Diego, Boulder, Madison do have great reputations for thriving tri communities, but even so I'm sure there are a few clashing personalities and people who don't get along, while the vast majority just hum along.

2014-02-27 8:30 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by marcag
Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?


Because there is no model like that anywhere.

Professional coaches are all paid regardless of the results, see Dallas Cowboys, LA Lakers. Teachers are paid regardless of results, go find a guitar teacher and say you won't pay them unless you can pefect "stairway to heaven" and you'll be searching for a long time.

You could be describing bonuses, but that's a poor decision too because only the coach has skin in the game. If I owe you $500 if I finish a 2:15 oly and I slow up and do 2:16 because I'm cheap, I'm only cheating you. That's different than the 10% take that pro coaches get, in that regard the pro still has money on the line too. Same with the cowboys or lakers coach, they get a bonus if the team wins a championship, but players have incentives too.
2014-02-27 10:08 AM
in reply to: chris948

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2014-02-27 10:41 AM
in reply to: chris948

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Originally posted by chris948
You could be describing bonuses, but that's a poor decision too because only the coach has skin in the game. If I owe you $500 if I finish a 2:15 oly and I slow up and do 2:16 because I'm cheap, I'm only cheating you. 

Presumably you have skin in the game too or you wouldn't be paying anything (I am presuming that there is some 'base fee' that you would pay, regardless).

Few incentive schemes are perfect, but that doesn't mean they still can't be worthwhile.  It's certainly possible that people could 'game' a system that promises an added payment for a specific performance.  If you are able to negotiate a performance hurdle which has little value to you (say a 2:15 Oly), then you might be able to get 'cheap' service for some lesser goal you do value (say a 2:16 Oly).  This won't last forever, because you'll get 'fired' and/or the deal will get renegotiated.

There are models like this everywhere.  Whether it can be crafted to work well (and successfully) for an AG athlete/coach relationship, I don't know (I can see some challenges).



2014-02-27 11:15 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
I actually used a similar model to one being discussed here with one of my AG athletes. But when it comes down to it, the relationship and deal have to be based on mutual trust. Which is hard to do when money is involved.

Note: Athlete just happens to be a financial planner

We set up the coaching payment and half of it went into an account that he invested and the other half was directly paid to me. This happened all the way up to his 'A' race. On race day if he performs as expected I get the entire amount in the investment account. If he does not perform on race day, then he gets half and I get half of the investment account.

We discussed things like what happens if he flats, etc. If unexpected things happen, then I would have to trust him to determine if he was ready to race or not. That's where the integrity comes in.

Benefits of this were that I made sure that everything controllable was taken care of, race rehearsals were done properly and the athlete was required to give feedback constantly. Both athlete and coach remain engaged. Also, he was financially engaged because he wants to grow the investment account as much as possible not only for his % should race day not happen but his % in general.
2014-02-27 11:15 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by Fred D

Because there is no model like that anywhere.

You might well be right, however, just because there is no model like that anywhere does not mean it could not work.

Most models we have were at one point not in existence, but someone/people came up with them. It would just take someone smart enough to tweak it to make it work in my opinion.

 

What *I* find most fascinating about this thread and the other corollary thread is that this one got all the posts and discussion, while the other one barely anything. 16 total posts in the other one.

 

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=511541&posts=16&page=1

I have a theory on why this happened this way ...........




The logistics to make it work exist.
Pay for performance, share in success......all buzz terms a good HR person knows how to make work. Triathlon is easy, because results are very measurable.
It's not rocket science. All the problems people throw up have been resolved by brilliant HR/Compensation people
There are actually advantages for both parties for such a model. Exactly the same as in the corporate world.

As for the threads, there are actually 3 running in parallel. Cost, yes to coach and no to coach with all 3 talking about the same thing :-) Would love to hear your theory. Mine is that as soon as one gets a bit more traffic, it tends to be the one that grows quickest.
2014-02-27 11:30 AM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by marcag Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?

My big concern with this (from a coach's perspective) is - there are many variables I cannot control.

I would need to trust an athlete a great deal to follow my plan, and to report to me exactly what they were doing, how they were feeling, etc. Looking at your uploaded data is only part of the picture.

Also, race day performance becomes huge - what if you drink 4 beers the night before, then have to stop to poop 4 times on the bike? What if you were late to the start? What if you flat or blow out a tire? What if we get you what will likely get you to KQ, but more athletes than anticipated show up and blow your time out of the water? What if the weather is drastically different than planned? What if your bike shoes are stolen out of transition? Is that my fault as a coach? Should I not receive the bonus because I got you to the start line ready, but some outside factor (or the athlete themself) cause it not to go according to plan?

 

 

and yet they want to pay teachers this way. hmmmmmm. 

2014-02-27 11:31 AM
in reply to: Guest

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Why "don't" i have a coach?  I haven't read through all the above, so I'll probably be parroting reason given by others.

1.  I do this for fun, not professionally.

2.  Yes- a good coach could help me optimize my training, but my view of endurance sports training is that 90% of it is about volume and consistency.  I don't need motivational help- I already get out and 'do' plenty.

3.  I've found that while a coach may understand physiology and training adaptation better than I, I'm still pretty well informed about it and there's one thing I always know better than a coach could ever know- and that's how I'm feeling on any given day.  I don't follow a plan religiously.  I modify it based on when I have time, how I feel, the weather, what friends are doing, etc.  I'm good with that.

- could a coach take me to 'the next level', yeah, probably   but see #1.  I do this for fun. 

2014-02-27 11:40 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
That is a good observation and could be a possible theory. I also think the demographic on BT is a bit different from other demographics. I posted a thread on goals and was given a very wide range of answers, check other demographics an you might see a much more concise set of goals.

I think a lot of people should read this article (http://propelperform.com/dear-former-athlete/?utm_content=buffer4c783&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer). As it has been discussed in similar threads, and here is well, some people believe cost is an issue, coaching is overpriced, they can do the same as what the coach does.

Maybe this will give some behind the scenes view into what goes on in coaching.


2014-02-27 1:17 PM
in reply to: Fred D

Master
3205
20001000100100
ann arbor, michigan
Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by Fred D

Because there is no model like that anywhere.

You might well be right, however, just because there is no model like that anywhere does not mean it could not work.

Most models we have were at one point not in existence, but someone/people came up with them. It would just take someone smart enough to tweak it to make it work in my opinion.

 

What *I* find most fascinating about this thread and the other corollary thread is that this one got all the posts and discussion, while the other one barely anything. 16 total posts in the other one.

 

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=511541&posts=16&page=1

I have a theory on why this happened this way ...........




I'll tell you why. I just got an email from my coach, "Stop posting on BT and get to training." Non-coached athletes have way more time to post in forums. (I'm kidding)
2014-02-27 1:28 PM
in reply to: reecealan

Member
763
5001001002525
Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by reecealan

Originally posted by LarchmontTri

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by jonnyo

I use a different approach, At Jonnyo Coaching, Results are guaranty or you are fired!

Coaching professional athletes is mostly all on % of gain by the athletes. if the athlete perform, the coach make ok/good money. I like it and it sometimes take 2-3 season until all the ''investement'' pay off but the challenge is fun!


obviously, this concept would not work for a age group athletes. A professional coach that make a living out of this need some kind of guaranty that he will get paid. a injury happening and it s over. Kind of like saying to doctor...you only get paid if you heal your patient. it aint that simple.



It would be great to see such a model applied to AGer and I don't see why it can't. it is no riskier than a pro

The numbers I am quoting are fictitious of course

I come to you and say I am 50 y/o, VDOT of 53, watts/kg of 3.8, 1:35/100m CSS. I am willing to invest 20 hours per week. I will pay you a nominal monthly fee (let's say $100) and if you get me to Kona you get a bonus of $5000.

You do the math, figure I need a 55 VDOT, 4 w/kg and 1:33/100m css based on historical results. Can you get me there ? Of course there are other details you would consider in your assessment.

If you truly believe in my potential to get there within 2 years, you would take this because it's $1200 x 2 years + $5000 = $7400 or more than $300 per month.

You do your math, figure out how much you need to improve me, calculate the risk and counter. I can assess how much you believe I can make it and I feel we are in this together.

Of course there has to be a way to guarantee payment if I do make it. Maybe there are interim payments if I hit 4w/kg on the way there or 55 VDOT.
You can fire me at any time if you do not feel I am going to make it.

Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?





Playing devil's advocate here...why would a coach take it? I don't see why anybody would. IMHO, there are just too many variables in a person's life for a coach to take that risk. If you're a pro and dedicated your list to training and things, that's different. But for weekend warriors like most of us are, there's just too many variables that a coach can't control - and thus the risk/reward proposition is not in a coaches favor.

I think a coach might take it if he wants his/her stock to go up. Big success story potential, without risk there's no reward etc. Some people in life have a more "go for it" mentality than others. A would imagine a very good coach that is confident in his/her ability and can see potential in the individual to be coached would go for something like that. The contract between them might have to be carefully written of course but I can still see the potential...


well, i think we're sort of saying the same thing...at the end of the day, it comes down to each coaches' risk/reward proposition. Some coaches might want to take the risk, and in that case, you're right, the contract has to be drafted very carefully. But I think few coaches of weekend warriors/average AGers would take on that risk given all the variables and thus the uncertainty of being paid.

2014-02-27 1:30 PM
in reply to: DanielG

Champion
11989
500050001000500100100100100252525
Philly 'burbs
Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)

Originally posted by DanielG  I'm in this for fun and not all that interested in a coach.

Your post seems to suggest that having a coach takes the fun out of triathlon. Fun is relative; working hard and pushing myself to improve my performance is fun. Racing hard is fun. Bringing home hardware from the podium is fun. Enlisting the help of a well qualified professional in an effort to improve my performance is also fun.

 

2014-02-27 4:18 PM
in reply to: marcag

New user
230
10010025
penticton
Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote)
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by jonnyo

I use a different approach, At Jonnyo Coaching, Results are guaranty or you are fired!

Coaching professional athletes is mostly all on % of gain by the athletes. if the athlete perform, the coach make ok/good money. I like it and it sometimes take 2-3 season until all the ''investement'' pay off but the challenge is fun!


obviously, this concept would not work for a age group athletes. A professional coach that make a living out of this need some kind of guaranty that he will get paid. a injury happening and it s over. Kind of like saying to doctor...you only get paid if you heal your patient. it aint that simple.



It would be great to see such a model applied to AGer and I don't see why it can't. it is no riskier than a pro

The numbers I am quoting are fictitious of course

I come to you and say I am 50 y/o, VDOT of 53, watts/kg of 3.8, 1:35/100m CSS. I am willing to invest 20 hours per week. I will pay you a nominal monthly fee (let's say $100) and if you get me to Kona you get a bonus of $5000.

You do the math, figure I need a 55 VDOT, 4 w/kg and 1:33/100m css based on historical results. Can you get me there ? Of course there are other details you would consider in your assessment.

If you truly believe in my potential to get there within 2 years, you would take this because it's $1200 x 2 years + $5000 = $7400 or more than $300 per month.

You do your math, figure out how much you need to improve me, calculate the risk and counter. I can assess how much you believe I can make it and I feel we are in this together.

Of course there has to be a way to guarantee payment if I do make it. Maybe there are interim payments if I hit 4w/kg on the way there or 55 VDOT.
You can fire me at any time if you do not feel I am going to make it.

Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?





Marc, i see you are from quebec!!! i miss home!!!

So, i have to say your message make me smile, i would most likely take on the challenge of your fictive situation because it s sound FUN...and i m a competitive person, i love challenge!!! But i would take it because it s a challenge. I m not driven by the money.

That said, people don't request me to put myself into this situation of paying on performance. My coaching, my pricing as never come as a issue for a age groupers. It comes as a issue for younger junior or up and comer pros. To those, i work deal, something will work for free for a long time because i been on of those kids that have took risk and committed to excellence, to the process and made all the sacrifice to get a chance at been a professional. I recognize that attitude in someone and i m ready to help and give back.

But for age group. it is still a business. I might not be the most affordable coach for a beginner but a beginner does not need me and my expertise to finish is first triathlon, or make it to the finish line of a ironman. I attract athletes that are at a point were triathlon is a relative priority in there life. It s not there first priority but a big one none the less...... making to kona, breaking 10h... or 9h in a ironman...going under 2h at olympic distance...etc.

For those people, it s my full time job to make it happen, i m committed to excellence, i travel to races to support them, i have a lot of expense ahead of time,,,,bike fitting, camera analysis, wind tunnel trips, time invested in nutrition analysis, reviewing workout, data, hitting them with a stick because they aren't listening etc. I deliver the work, i commit to offer a professional service and i m DRIVEN by my athlete accomplishing and succeeding at there races. But as there is a lot out of my control in someones way to execute the training and on race day....not chock mentally, self sabotage, flat tire, and a million other factor, i would not be interested in coaching base on performance for age group athlete. But, i m happy to be judge about my competency base on athlete results. Because i sincerely believe that the number 1 criteria for evaluating if a coach is good or not is...RESULTS OF HIS ATHLETES. you don't hire me to be your friend, you hire my to give you a good hard look, sometimes say things that aren't fun to say but my job is to make you faster. It can be a uncomfortable and painful process at time. But you are paying for the process. So when you get to the race...i have ALREADY delivered the goods. The race is the ''easy part'' and the part that is out of my control.

But as i said, it as never came up that my pricing was a issue, my athlete pay happily and stick with me for many years. They hire me because they know me as a athlete or a coach and know the high performance/excellence mentality that i bring. That is the kind of relationship i strive on. we commit to the process and work our off to make great things happen.



i have to say this was a interesting thread..... fun to read!
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