General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Sea level training for altitude Rss Feed  
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2014-03-13 9:59 AM

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Queen BTich
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Subject: Sea level training for altitude
I live outside New Orleans: no hills. My elevation is 5 feet. FIVE. So, how do I train for Pikes Peak marsthon? I have a tire drag to build strength and simulate running uphill. Do I try to train in the hottest part of the day? I've read really mixed reviews on altitude masks. I'm not opposed to a gas mask, but that would really freak people out. Thoughts? I'm excited!


2014-03-13 2:30 PM
in reply to: Comet

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude
I know nothing. But I will contend that the gas mask suffocation devices DO NOT increase hematocrit but being at altitude does. From what I've read, it's better to train at sea level where you can push harder, then go to altitude for a week pre-race to increase hematocrit.
2014-03-13 4:02 PM
in reply to: Comet

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

Best thing I can think of:

Long runs on the treadmill set to 12% grade

Get to Colorado a week ahead of the race, and stay at one of the resort/ski areas with a high base elevation- like Breckenridge. It would be a nice place to hang out for a while and enjoy a vacation before race day.

Don't know how you'll train for the downhill.  ugh.

2014-03-13 4:08 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Queen BTich
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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude
Originally posted by morey000

Best thing I can think of:

Long runs on the treadmill set to 12% grade

Get to Colorado a week ahead of the race, and stay at one of the resort/ski areas with a high base elevation- like Breckenridge. It would be a nice place to hang out for a while and enjoy a vacation before race day.

Don't know how you'll train for the downhill.  ugh.

We have friends in Vail, so I will be going there for at least 1 day. I've accepted the fact that the downhill is going to trash my legs. No other race plans for the year, so I'm ok with that. Once in a lifetime! The sad thing is, a couple of people from my local ultra running group were trying to talk me into Leadville and I was adamantly, "HELLNOOOO! You Cajuns be crazy for going to do that, we can't train for it." And I register for this instead.
2014-03-13 7:12 PM
in reply to: Comet

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude
It'll take at least 3 days to acclimate. Plan to go early if you can. As for down hill training, go to an old trash dump that's been covered with dirt and run up and down until you can't.
2014-03-13 8:55 PM
in reply to: La Tortuga

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Queen BTich
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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

Originally posted by La Tortuga It'll take at least 3 days to acclimate. Plan to go early if you can. As for down hill training, go to an old trash dump that's been covered with dirt and run up and down until you can't.

I'll be going as many days ahead as I can. Definitely.
Thanks for the dump idea, I'll look into that!

This is all we have. The Mississippi River levee. It's really not that high or long. I guess I could just do repeats, but ugh, that is mind numbing.
levee



2014-03-13 9:58 PM
in reply to: Comet

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude
With the right connections, you could always blood dope; that's what the cyclists in the 90's used to do. ;-)

That aside, there's not much you can do other than train at sea level and then go up there with a 'will do' attitude.
2014-03-14 7:41 AM
in reply to: jkron

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Queen BTich
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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

Originally posted by jkron With the right connections, you could always blood dope; that's what the cyclists in the 90's used to do. ;-) That aside, there's not much you can do other than train at sea level and then go up there with a 'will do' attitude.

Unfortunately, that's what one of my friends who has done it before said. Sigh.
When I go skiing, I don't usually have a problem, but I think running up is not going to be that easy.

2014-03-14 2:18 PM
in reply to: Comet

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

Originally posted by Comet

When I go skiing, I don't usually have a problem, but I think running up is not going to be that easy.

That's a good sign.  Different people's physiology, for whatever reason, react differently to altitude- regardless of how good a shape you're in.  If you've been skiing at 12,5K and haven't had an issue, that likely means that you're not particularly susceptible to altitude issues. (good)  Pikes gets up to 14K.  So- no doubt that you'll feel the effects of having less oxygen- which will certainly slow you down, but that part is to be expected.  

Like you said above- get to Vail as soon as you can.  3 days prior will make a world of difference.  Longer, even better.  Easy on the alcohol as well.

2014-03-14 3:22 PM
in reply to: morey000

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Queen BTich
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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

Originally posted by morey000

Originally posted by Comet

When I go skiing, I don't usually have a problem, but I think running up is not going to be that easy.

That's a good sign.  Different people's physiology, for whatever reason, react differently to altitude- regardless of how good a shape you're in.  If you've been skiing at 12,5K and haven't had an issue, that likely means that you're not particularly susceptible to altitude issues. (good)  Pikes gets up to 14K.  So- no doubt that you'll feel the effects of having less oxygen- which will certainly slow you down, but that part is to be expected.  

Like you said above- get to Vail as soon as you can.  3 days prior will make a world of difference.  Longer, even better.  Easy on the alcohol as well.


Definitely no alcohol and pounding extra water. The only thing I've noticed is a headache on day 2-3 (totally normal) if I haven't hydrated enough. Which is also typical of travel in general and being off a routine.

Thanks for the confidence booster!

2014-03-14 8:10 PM
in reply to: Comet

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude


2014-03-14 8:31 PM
in reply to: Gracia

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Queen BTich
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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude


Great article, thanks!

Who are you?

2014-03-14 8:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude
a pal and a confidante. If you threw a party and invited everyone you knew... (shhhhhhh.)

Edited by Gracia 2014-03-14 8:33 PM
2014-03-15 8:16 AM
in reply to: Comet

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

I've heard a lot of different takes.  From what the pro's have said though is it truly takes a couple weeks to get used to the higher altitude.  I have friends that claim getting there as close to race start is the key to performing well if you are coming from flat land.  They claim once you are there for more than a couple days the O2 debt really starts to take affect in your' blood and takes a good couple weeks to even back out. 

Have you thought of an altitude tent?  They claim sleep high and train low works the best!

2014-03-15 9:56 AM
in reply to: Bevie

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

There really is no training other than coming two weeks ahead. That would be ideal, anything else is just "doing your best". You don't need to be "at altitude". Yes Pike's Peak is 14K, but Colorado Springs is 6-7K. That is a very noticeable difference from 0'. Even me living here, getting up to sumit... I always forget there is no air up there. You are just slower.

Now yes, coming to altitude you certainly can get headaches. If you go skiing then it sounds like you know. But as long as you do not get "sick", then you should be fine. Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. Oh ya, don't forget to drink lots of water. 

I'm doing the Accent. No desire to do the marathon.... heck any marathon at this point. But it is a big event. Overall... the trail is pretty much the same grade all the way up. Yes there are switchbacks... but same grade. The first couple miles is a little steeper. But it is not hard at all to get into a nice steady rhythm. It's not steep or technical, it is just a very very long approach. At the very top there are a few steps. I've been up a few times, I just want to run up it on a supported course. It will be fun.

2014-03-15 10:05 AM
in reply to: Comet

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

Originally posted by Comet

Originally posted by La Tortuga It'll take at least 3 days to acclimate. Plan to go early if you can. As for down hill training, go to an old trash dump that's been covered with dirt and run up and down until you can't.

I'll be going as many days ahead as I can. Definitely.
Thanks for the dump idea, I'll look into that!

This is all we have. The Mississippi River levee. It's really not that high or long. I guess I could just do repeats, but ugh, that is mind numbing.
levee

Ya, do about a thousand. you should be good. 

Yes, the running down is going to hurt. You might not be able to walk for a couple days. I'm being serious. Doing a big dose of that when not used to it hurts. Once I decided to do stairs at work for about 30 minutes... could not walk for 2 days. Could not go down stairs. Last time I ran full out with a friend down the last part of Barr Trail after doing the incline. We were going for a PR. I usually do not run like that. We made it up and down in 51". I could not walk for 3 days. I could not walk down my stairs for 5. The single worst thing I ever did to myself. HIM does not even come close to that... but I don't do a lot of speed work either. We were in an all out 5K sprint.

So anyway, just add what you can into your training. You do not need a lot of "power"... but running stairs/bleachers is good... and even 100 mind numbing repeats on the levy is going to come in real handy. 14 miles of downhill. 



2014-03-15 11:12 AM
in reply to: Bevie

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Queen BTich
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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

Originally posted by Bevie

Have you thought of an altitude tent?  They claim sleep high and train low works the best!


Got some $ I can borrow?

2014-03-15 11:18 AM
in reply to: powerman

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Queen BTich
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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

Originally posted by powerman

Ya, do about a thousand. you should be good. 

So anyway, just add what you can into your training. You do not need a lot of "power"... but running stairs/bleachers is good... and even 100 mind numbing repeats on the levy is going to come in real handy. 14 miles of downhill. 

I started doing stairs about 2 weeks ago. I'll be doing them at least once a week, maybe 2, if I can sneak into another stadium closer to my house than the one I'm currently using.

I'm not talking specific "power" but adding more squats and other lower body weight lifting will strengthen my legs for the climbing. I've already tested that with myself and it really helps. I can power up some hills, faster than many I run with in marathons. I've got that going for me.

I guess I can try to build up to 1-2 hours of stadium stairs. In the high heat, dehydrating myslef (Like the article said). Can't hurt I guess. I'll be used to less water so extra on race day at altitude will only help.

2014-03-15 1:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude

Originally posted by Comet

Originally posted by powerman

Ya, do about a thousand. you should be good. 

So anyway, just add what you can into your training. You do not need a lot of "power"... but running stairs/bleachers is good... and even 100 mind numbing repeats on the levy is going to come in real handy. 14 miles of downhill. 

I started doing stairs about 2 weeks ago. I'll be doing them at least once a week, maybe 2, if I can sneak into another stadium closer to my house than the one I'm currently using.

I'm not talking specific "power" but adding more squats and other lower body weight lifting will strengthen my legs for the climbing. I've already tested that with myself and it really helps. I can power up some hills, faster than many I run with in marathons. I've got that going for me.

I guess I can try to build up to 1-2 hours of stadium stairs. In the high heat, dehydrating myslef (Like the article said). Can't hurt I guess. I'll be used to less water so extra on race day at altitude will only help.

ya.... I don't know about the article.

Bottom line... there is less air. You can't "train" for that. Sure, training to breath deeper might help... but there is LESS air, so it is easier to breath. Breathing should always be deep and efficient no matter what level you are at. Your lung capacity is finite.

As far as making yourself hot to "starve" your muscles of blood... hummmm. Again, there is no "training" benefit to that. You train to get your body to operate as efficiently as possible. When you have less O2, you are still efficient, just less output. So training by lowering your ability to put out makes no sense. I mean heck, at some point we have to start talking aerobic/anaerobic output... you can only burn the O2 you have available, after that, you are not under your threshold anymore. That's what it is like up top... you are not working hard, you are not "out of breath", you just can't understand why something so easy isn't, and your legs are burning. 

As far as altitude, it will have an effect on you, and you don't want to feel all out of it and have bad headaches... but you will only be able to put out what you can put out. But as far as performance/output.... you still want to train for your best performance/output you can do. Does that make any sense?

 

As far as stairs/power... you are on the right track. All I was getting at was that you are not going to be scrambling up steep hills sections. It really is a very moderate grade. But strength is always good. And while it is not technical single track... it is still trail running, so strength again is always good. It's just that you need to build up the downhill muscles. Negatives so to speak. We don't get a lot of that naturally. So what you are doing is going to help out plenty. 



Edited by powerman 2014-03-15 1:52 PM
2014-03-15 3:32 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude
This is a hard one. But as others have said, any type of hill training is better than none. And the downhill is going to be the worst. If all you can do is level, then at least find some technical trails to run on. I would also recommend either getting to altitude at least several days to a week before or show up just before the race. In my experience, I seem to have the worst effects after one to two days after I go from low to high elevation.

Good luck!
2014-03-23 9:04 PM
in reply to: Comet

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude
Originally posted by Comet

Originally posted by La Tortuga It'll take at least 3 days to acclimate. Plan to go early if you can. As for down hill training, go to an old trash dump that's been covered with dirt and run up and down until you can't.

I'll be going as many days ahead as I can. Definitely.
Thanks for the dump idea, I'll look into that!

This is all we have. The Mississippi River levee. It's really not that high or long. I guess I could just do repeats, but ugh, that is mind numbing.
levee




In the absence of hills (being a sofla *also at sea level gir*l...try running down stairs...A LOT.


2014-03-23 9:05 PM
in reply to: Mimir98

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude
oops..I should read everything before I post...What you said...stairs :D
2014-03-23 9:47 PM
in reply to: Mimir98

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Subject: RE: Sea level training for altitude
Comet, I know very little about altitude sickness. I once had to hike my wife off a mountain in southern colorado at midnight because she couldn't breath. However, that is my experience. I would add that living in southern Georgia and racing in the west (not at altitude), I have noticed a huge advantage of going from high humidity to no humidity. I doubt it will solve the O2 issue. However, use the misery you have in Louisiana and train in the worst heat of the day. Stress your body in the way you can. My $.02.
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