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Faster pull than swim
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 2014-03-21 3:16 AM |
Expert  819  |  Subject: Faster pull than swimIs it normal to swim faster with a pull buoy? I am about 5-10 sec/100 faster with the buoy. Since I do not kick much in a tri, and I'm wear a wetsuit, does it make sense to do most of my training with a pull buoy? |
| 2014-03-21 3:26 AM in reply to: #4968834 |
28 | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim It can be, usually that means there is some big flaws in your technique and most likely with your body position in the water. If you want to do pull work do it without any float and using your core muscles to maintain a high position in the water. |
| 2014-03-21 5:49 AM in reply to: leftrunner |
Expert 2373  Floriduh | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Agree with above, you prolly have some issues with maintaining a hydrodynamic position in the water. A wetsuit may correct for this because of the buoyancy, but if the water is too warm for wetsuits your time will suffer. Most likely, matter of better engaging your core but could be your kick mechanics as well. |
| 2014-03-21 6:36 AM in reply to: #4968835 |
Expert 977 | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim I used to be faster too and still am if I'm tired. But that just shows lack of form. Helps keeps my hips up. I'd say more practice and those numbers will even out or the pull will even be slower. |
| 2014-03-21 6:49 AM in reply to: leftrunner |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim 70%-80% of your swimming should be without aids(pull bouy's, kick boards, paddles,...). You will grow dependent on them and your techniques will suffer. With good form you swim should be faster without the pull bouy |
| 2014-03-21 8:02 AM in reply to: 0 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by leftrunner Is it normal to swim faster with a pull buoy? I am about 5-10 sec/100 faster with the buoy. Since I do not kick much in a tri, and I'm wear a wetsuit, does it make sense to do most of my training with a pull buoy? Yes it is common to swim faster with a pull boy, but that only helps you diagnose your issue, not fix it! You need to start looking for balance solutions and issues. Three common sources of sinking legs (aside from the fact that legs sink on their own if not counter balanced) are 1) Head is looking forward or up or otherwise held up riather than being released and supported by the water. Head goes up, hips go down and legs with them. 2) moving arm weight is behind the lungs. work on a "front quadrant" stroke and the weight of teh recovery arm will be in front of the lungs for more of the stroke helping to counterbalance the weight of the legs 3) pushing down at the front of the stroke - a poor catch in the front will push water down , which leverages through the bouyancy of the lungs to sink the hips. FIx these without the pullbouy or wetsuit and you'll be a much more skilled swimmer making you even FASTER YET when you Do wear a wetsuit. Edited by AdventureBear 2014-03-21 8:03 AM |
| 2014-03-21 12:32 PM in reply to: leftrunner |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim agree with the above, it means do more work on correcting what's wrong. Depending on your goals (short and/or long term) you're going to have to do some serious swimming at some point, and none of the good swimmers I know let their legs dangle behind them (even in a wetsuit). Might has well have good form when it comes to put in the distance. |
| 2014-03-21 9:38 PM in reply to: leftrunner |
| 265 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim My pull sets were a real eye opener for me. I was swimming considerably faster with the buoy than I was "unassisted." Instead of saying well I don't kick much when racing and the wetsuit will help I realized it showcased my flaws In Body position. And hey, won't you know it after focusing in technique and form and keeping my legs closer to the surface not only is my swim faster but also my pull sets. You've got problems with your form, we all do, it's a common struggle and the hardest to overcome because training MORE won't help but training CORRECTLY will . |
| 2014-03-22 6:19 AM in reply to: leftrunner |
Expert 819 | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim OK, yeah, I figured it was something like what everyone is saying. So, now how to best fix my issues? Any thoughts on Youtube channels or books to specifically help on form issues? Maybe a coach for a few sessions? |
| 2014-03-22 6:42 AM in reply to: leftrunner |
| New user 135 | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by leftrunner OK, yeah, I figured it was something like what everyone is saying. So, now how to best fix my issues? Any thoughts on Youtube channels or books to specifically help on form issues? Maybe a coach for a few sessions? The Total Immersion stuff gets a lot of mention around here. My local municipal pool has a $30/month Masters swimming program that has a pretty good coach. Cheaper than private lessons, and he actually provides some feedback rather than just workout sets. |
| 2014-03-22 7:47 AM in reply to: bwalling |
Expert 819 | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by bwalling Originally posted by leftrunner OK, yeah, I figured it was something like what everyone is saying. So, now how to best fix my issues? Any thoughts on Youtube channels or books to specifically help on form issues? Maybe a coach for a few sessions? The Total Immersion stuff gets a lot of mention around here. My local municipal pool has a $30/month Masters swimming program that has a pretty good coach. Cheaper than private lessons, and he actually provides some feedback rather than just workout sets. Funny you should mention TI. I learned how to swim with TI in 2008-9. Maybe I need to get out the book and DVD and do a refresher. Thanks! |
| 2014-03-22 8:00 AM in reply to: leftrunner |
Master 1770 Bedford, MA | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Funny, I'm a good 2-3 sec slower per 100 with a pull buoy. I just seem unbalanced without a kick. |
| 2014-03-22 10:32 AM in reply to: natethomas2000 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim I'm reading a lot of posts about position, but what I didn't see mentioned (or maybe I missed it) is that your kick could be so bad that it's slowing you down. We've all heard of (or witnessed) those swimmers that will actually move backwards because their kick is so "off" when they do kick drills. So, my question is this: What happens when you do kick board drills? I ask because I struggle quite a bit with foot flexibility as well as hooking my foot when on a breath stroke. It's kinda like a drop an anchor every breath (actually getting much better, but it's not fixed yet) |
| 2014-03-22 12:44 PM in reply to: natethomas2000 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by natethomas2000 Funny, I'm a good 2-3 sec slower per 100 with a pull buoy. I just seem unbalanced without a kick. I believe you really increased your swim last year and made some big gains, did you not? Probably better position in the water and your kick is not only giving you a better position but propelling you forward (something you lose with a buoy) |
| 2014-03-22 5:20 PM in reply to: natethomas2000 |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by natethomas2000 Funny, I'm a good 2-3 sec slower per 100 with a pull buoy. I just seem unbalanced without a kick. I'm the same. In fact, I'm probably even slower with just the pull buoy as I'm a good 2-3 sec slower per 100 with a pull buoy AND paddles. |
| 2014-03-22 5:59 PM in reply to: leftrunner |
Extreme Veteran 669 Olathe, Kansas | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Ok, it is time we clear something here. In the world of swimming, when word pull is used, it implies use of PADDLES AND PULL BUOY. So, if you are using paddles, just failing to mention than: 1. It is quite ok to be faster using paddles+buoy as paddles grab a hole lot more water than your bear arms do. Everybody in the world of swimming, when paddles are used, is faster than without. 2. If you are not using paddles, buoy only, what is that for? What skill are you training, simulating wetsuit? Pulling with buoy only is a waste of time and typical for triathletes, you will not see swimmers do that. If no paddles, buoy only, you are being faster, than body position as well as your kick need work. |
| 2014-03-22 7:12 PM in reply to: atasic |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by atasic Ok, it is time we clear something here. In the world of swimming, when word pull is used, it implies use of PADDLES AND PULL BUOY. So, if you are using paddles, just failing to mention than: 1. It is quite ok to be faster using paddles+buoy as paddles grab a hole lot more water than your bear arms do. Everybody in the world of swimming, when paddles are used, is faster than without. 2. If you are not using paddles, buoy only, what is that for? What skill are you training, simulating wetsuit? Pulling with buoy only is a waste of time and typical for triathletes, you will not see swimmers do that. If no paddles, buoy only, you are being faster, than body position as well as your kick need work. WHAT?! Swimming with the buoy and no paddles allows you to focus on your stroke mechanics. Yes, many of us (triathletes) have crappy body position, but using an aid that allows us to have better body position so that we can focus on stroke mechanics and feel better body position is not a "waste of time." ----- OP, when I first started swimming my body position was pretty bad, and I was faster with a buoy--like you, about 3-4sec/100. After two years of work, I am consistently faster without a buoy--5 sec/100. |
| 2014-03-22 9:01 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 493 Cloverdale, BC | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim What are the best drills for improving balance? I suffer from the same issue as the OP. I'm at least 5-10 seconds slower per 100/m without a pull buoy. And my kick is strong. I average about 1:55-1:58 per 100 with regular swimming, and 1:45-1:50 with the pull buoy (no paddles) Fortunately I live in Canada where pretty much every swim is wetsuit legal unless its in a pool. Edited by ultramike 2014-03-22 9:07 PM |
| 2014-03-22 9:03 PM in reply to: switch |
Extreme Veteran 669 Olathe, Kansas | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Yep, isolating front in breaststroke and fly, as well as teaching arm turnover in backstroke is used frequently with swimmers. OP is suggesting and as I have observed many triathletes use buoy as a crutch. What would you do with it, how do you work on front in freestyle, which aspect of the stroke would you do, just curious. I have seen peeps training for their races doing countless mindless laps with their buoy between legs.........what is that all about. |
| 2014-03-22 10:34 PM in reply to: atasic |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim i do lots of pull sets.... brett sutton athletes does a lot of those also, joel filliol also. we like to swim at the front of the race...we like to get hard swim in even on days when we rode 5h or after a hard track workout. pull boey is a great tool in the right time. |
| 2014-03-23 3:53 AM in reply to: #4968834 |
Expert 819 | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim I am not using paddles. I definitely move backwards using the kick board so I don't do kick sets. I'm a FOP Sprint triathlete in my area and MOP in longer races. I'm happy with this. I figure the 10sec/100 gains I might make getting a better kick are likely to use up a significant amount of leg strength in a longer race and take away from my overall time. I hardly kick at all in OW swims. I live and race in Michigan, so wetsuits are always legal. I figure the buoy mimics my wetsuit in buoyancy and isn't a terrible simulation of race conditions. I definitely swim more sets without the buoy, but when I just rode a hard 2 hours, or ran 2 hours the day before, my legs can be my limiter, and giving them a break seems like the nice thing to do. |
| 2014-03-24 8:24 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by bcagle25 Originally posted by natethomas2000 Funny, I'm a good 2-3 sec slower per 100 with a pull buoy. I just seem unbalanced without a kick. I believe you really increased your swim last year and made some big gains, did you not? Probably better position in the water and your kick is not only giving you a better position but propelling you forward (something you lose with a buoy) This happened to me this year. I was faster with the buoy last year, but that has reversed this year - and I think it's entirely because I focused on my swim enough to improve my position (as well as having done enough kick sets that now even a two beat or very easy 6 beat kick helps with speed as well as balance). I didn't realize just HOW bad my position was until one of my kids video'd me underwater last summer. Total eye-opener (and bummer at the time!). I had been swimming with, if not at, the FOP in my AG secondary to my wetsuit helping with the poor form - but my swim still needed a lot of work. I'm curious to see how this race season goes, as I've spent more time in the pool and more time on form than ever before. I'm HOPING that I can swim similar times as last year, but be less red-lined coming out of the water. As for kick sets, yeah, I thought I didn't need them either and used to focus on a "zero beat kick" when in OWS and in my wettie. But, having now done them in the pool even when my legs were tired from a run/ride, I feel like a different set of muscles has developed, if only slowly… We'll see if that pays or was a waste of time during the upcoming race season. Matt |
| 2014-03-24 8:28 AM in reply to: AdventureBear |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by AdventureBear 2) moving arm weight is behind the lungs. work on a "front quadrant" stroke and the weight of teh recovery arm will be in front of the lungs for more of the stroke helping to counterbalance the weight of the legs So, do you not extend your arm back when finishing the pull? I've been trying to finish the "pull" with a solid push during the back half of the range of motion. Do you not move the upper arm back beyond the mid-point of your lungs? Trying to visualize this one is tough to reconcile with the advice I've seen about finishing the pull with your hand by your upper thigh (and rotating your hips out of the way to let your hand through to start the recovery). I'd always interpreted the "front quadrant" stroke with a fast recovery so that you didn't start the next stroke until your recovering arm was in front of your shoulders, not limiting the length of the pull. Appreciate any thoughts on this! Thanks. Matt |
| 2014-03-24 12:47 PM in reply to: mcmanusclan5 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Originally posted by AdventureBear 2) moving arm weight is behind the lungs. work on a "front quadrant" stroke and the weight of teh recovery arm will be in front of the lungs for more of the stroke helping to counterbalance the weight of the legs So, do you not extend your arm back when finishing the pull? I've been trying to finish the "pull" with a solid push during the back half of the range of motion. Do you not move the upper arm back beyond the mid-point of your lungs? Trying to visualize this one is tough to reconcile with the advice I've seen about finishing the pull with your hand by your upper thigh (and rotating your hips out of the way to let your hand through to start the recovery). I'd always interpreted the "front quadrant" stroke with a fast recovery so that you didn't start the next stroke until your recovering arm was in front of your shoulders, not limiting the length of the pull. Appreciate any thoughts on this! Thanks. Matt Oh, no, don't swim like T-rex! I am talking about the recovery arm after it completes the stroke, and when the lead arm starts stroking. I didn't even mention the length of the stroke (I hate the word "pull". I prefer catch & press/push. pulling frequently collapses the elbow) . You need a full stroke, without it you won't get any forward velocity which will just bring you to a stop faster and make your legs sink faster. |
| 2014-03-24 12:50 PM in reply to: leftrunner |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Faster pull than swim Originally posted by leftrunner Funny you should mention TI. I learned how to swim with TI in 2008-9. Maybe I need to get out the book and DVD and do a refresher. Thanks! I pick up something new from Terry every time I watch his videos. Try doing a home refresher first, then reach out to a coach. |
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