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2014-04-14 10:05 PM

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Subject: Waving the white flag....
Just got back from the pool and have a few rambling thoughts...

I'm not a swimmer. There, I said it...and I'm ok with it. I pretty much taught myself to survive the swim leg...well, it's not that bad, but I'm certainly not 'fast' in the water (~1:50/100 on a good day). I'm much faster and more efficient now than I was when I started, and that's a victory right there. I'm happy to get through the swim leg and back onto dry land. I know I should be worried about my 100 times, improving the efficiency of stroke, decreasing drag, etc., and perhaps if I had a coach or joined a master swim group I could get faster, but to be honest I just don't think it's all that important...I know I should care, but I just don't. So, I'll get through the swim legs of my races this year, I'm not worried about that, but I'm just not all geeked-up to put in the work to make a significant improvement. There's only so many hours in the day, and swimming takes a back seat to just about everything else.

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this (or am I?), but it is what it is.

Perhaps I'm a candidate for a Dr. Phil intervention or something...




2014-04-14 10:13 PM
in reply to: LarchmontTri


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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
Originally posted by LarchmontTri

Just got back from the pool and have a few rambling thoughts...

I'm not a swimmer. There, I said it...and I'm ok with it. I pretty much taught myself to survive the swim leg...well, it's not that bad, but I'm certainly not 'fast' in the water (~1:50/100 on a good day). I'm much faster and more efficient now than I was when I started, and that's a victory right there. I'm happy to get through the swim leg and back onto dry land. I know I should be worried about my 100 times, improving the efficiency of stroke, decreasing drag, etc., and perhaps if I had a coach or joined a master swim group I could get faster, but to be honest I just don't think it's all that important...I know I should care, but I just don't. So, I'll get through the swim legs of my races this year, I'm not worried about that, but I'm just not all geeked-up to put in the work to make a significant improvement. There's only so many hours in the day, and swimming takes a back seat to just about everything else.

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this (or am I?), but it is what it is.

Perhaps I'm a candidate for a Dr. Phil intervention or something...



Sadly you're not in the minority. A large proportion of triathletes are crap swimmers, they can't swim properly and can't be bothered learning. Unfortunately the way triathlons are structured, you can get away with being a crap swimmer and still do OK. The swim leg should be at least double the distance.
2014-04-14 11:32 PM
in reply to: zedzded

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....

Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by LarchmontTri Just got back from the pool and have a few rambling thoughts... I'm not a swimmer. There, I said it...and I'm ok with it. I pretty much taught myself to survive the swim leg...well, it's not that bad, but I'm certainly not 'fast' in the water (~1:50/100 on a good day). I'm much faster and more efficient now than I was when I started, and that's a victory right there. I'm happy to get through the swim leg and back onto dry land. I know I should be worried about my 100 times, improving the efficiency of stroke, decreasing drag, etc., and perhaps if I had a coach or joined a master swim group I could get faster, but to be honest I just don't think it's all that important...I know I should care, but I just don't. So, I'll get through the swim legs of my races this year, I'm not worried about that, but I'm just not all geeked-up to put in the work to make a significant improvement. There's only so many hours in the day, and swimming takes a back seat to just about everything else. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this (or am I?), but it is what it is. Perhaps I'm a candidate for a Dr. Phil intervention or something...
Sadly you're not in the minority. A large proportion of triathletes are crap swimmers, they can't swim properly and can't be bothered learning. Unfortunately the way triathlons are structured, you can get away with being a crap swimmer and still do OK. The swim leg should be at least double the distance.

Less and less is that true...........and then I guess it depends on what "OK" means to an individual.

2014-04-14 11:43 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
Yeah, I agree with LB... I got my slammed into a hole by the leaders in the swim... I've seen a progression in the last 2 years and I've watched the results of AGers and I see their times improving by minutes... it seems that those guys have maximized their bike and run times at the given age... but have attacked the swim with vigor... getting out of the water faster and more rested will only benefit the remaining legs of the race.
2014-04-15 12:16 AM
in reply to: tomspharmacy

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....

Originally posted by tomspharmacy Yeah, I agree with LB... I got my slammed into a hole by the leaders in the swim... I've seen a progression in the last 2 years and I've watched the results of AGers and I see their times improving by minutes... it seems that those guys have maximized their bike and run times at the given age... but have attacked the swim with vigor... getting out of the water faster and more rested will only benefit the remaining legs of the race.

Yeah, this is what I see more and more of even at the AG level.  Guys can ride 22-24 mph pretty regularly, and a 6:00/mile run will keep you in most races (at least at the local/regional level).....but increasingly, I see guys who can do that, and hold 1:10-1:15/100 in the swim (and many faster).  If you are swimming 1:30-1:45/100, which 10 years ago was decent for AG triathlon, you're pretty much not in the race at sprint and Oly distance. 

Go ahead and get out of the water in a sprint swim (750M) at 12 minutes and see what happens....and good luck.  Get out of the water in an Oly in 25-27 minutes (again, not too shabby a few years ago) and you will find yourself in a 5-8 minute hole pretty regularly.....have fun. 

It's not as dramatic at long course racing...........yet. 

In years to come if you can't swim you can't win.....watch and see. 

2014-04-15 12:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
Originally posted by Left Brain

Less and less is that true...........and then I guess it depends on what "OK" means to an individual.




Possibly with the pros. The AGs though, the podium finishers can often have pretty poor swim times and still podium. You've got guys putting in high 30s and even low 40min swims and still finishing top 3 or 4. 40mins for 1.9km is poor, that's over 2mins per 100m....with a wetsuit..... if the standard is getting better, it must have been pretty bad before.

I just randomly picked the Boise 70.3 and had a look at the swim times and they seemed very slow. The conditions looked perfect. Maybe I'm wrong though, I don't know anything about the race conditions.

Edited by zedzded 2014-04-15 12:32 AM


2014-04-15 12:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....

Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by Left Brain

Less and less is that true...........and then I guess it depends on what "OK" means to an individual.

Possibly with the pros. The AGs though, the podium finishers can often have pretty poor swim times and still podium. You've got guys putting in high 30s and even low 40min swims and still finishing top 3 or 4. 40mins for 1.9km is poor, that's over 2mins per 100m....with a wetsuit..... if the standard is getting better, it must have been pretty bad before.

First, on Oly is 1.5 K.....so your numbers are even more abysmal per minute.

Second, yeah, it was horrible back in the day.

Third, I don't know where you are racing that you can get on a podium with a 2:00/100 swim, but you aren't anywhere near the races we go to.

Pros?  Go look at AG National Sprint/Oly from last year......it's a race you don't even have to qualify for at the sprint level.....2:00/100?  You're not even racing, much less on a podium. (and that swim was about 80M long for the sprint)

ETA - my comments have nothing to do with long course racing......I specifically said as much. 



Edited by Left Brain 2014-04-15 12:37 AM
2014-04-15 12:46 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....

A quick look at AG Sprint nationals (no qualification) showed the first person with a 2:XX swim in 294th place......no podium there.  

If you couldn't hit 1:30 you could barely crack the top 50. 

For the Oly race a 2:XX swim didn't make the top 1000...........just saying. LOL

2014-04-15 12:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
Originally posted by Left Brain

my comments have nothing to do with long course racing......I specifically said as much. 




Ah OK. Sorry I missed that. So you're only referring to OD & Sprints?

I was getting those times from some of the USA 70.3 age -groupers who finished in the top 3, 4 with times of 38, 39, 40mins for the 1.9km. I was just randomly looking at results, but don't know the race conditions.

Edited by zedzded 2014-04-15 12:56 AM
2014-04-15 1:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....

Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by Left Brain my comments have nothing to do with long course racing......I specifically said as much. 
Ah OK. Sorry I missed that. So you're only referring to OD & Sprints? I was getting those times from some of the USA 70.3 age -groupers who finished in the top 3, 4 with times of 38, 39, 40mins for the 1.9km. I was just randomly looking at results, but don't know the race conditions.

As I said, yeah.....for now. 

Again, a few more years down the road and you won't be able to win a 70.3 without a really decent swim.....eventually it'll catch the IM distance too. 

Triathlon is finally becoming a 3 sport race in the U.S......that's a good thing.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-04-15 1:12 AM
2014-04-15 8:47 AM
in reply to: #4981747

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
The swim is my weakest area - both mentally and in technique.
I will be putting most of my time into the swim and the run until my next race!


2014-04-16 7:16 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by zedzded
Originally posted by LarchmontTri Just got back from the pool and have a few rambling thoughts... I'm not a swimmer. There, I said it...and I'm ok with it. I pretty much taught myself to survive the swim leg...well, it's not that bad, but I'm certainly not 'fast' in the water (~1:50/100 on a good day). I'm much faster and more efficient now than I was when I started, and that's a victory right there. I'm happy to get through the swim leg and back onto dry land. I know I should be worried about my 100 times, improving the efficiency of stroke, decreasing drag, etc., and perhaps if I had a coach or joined a master swim group I could get faster, but to be honest I just don't think it's all that important...I know I should care, but I just don't. So, I'll get through the swim legs of my races this year, I'm not worried about that, but I'm just not all geeked-up to put in the work to make a significant improvement. There's only so many hours in the day, and swimming takes a back seat to just about everything else. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this (or am I?), but it is what it is. Perhaps I'm a candidate for a Dr. Phil intervention or something...
Sadly you're not in the minority. A large proportion of triathletes are crap swimmers, they can't swim properly and can't be bothered learning. Unfortunately the way triathlons are structured, you can get away with being a crap swimmer and still do OK. The swim leg should be at least double the distance.

Less and less is that true...........and then I guess it depends on what "OK" means to an individual.

Good observation, you are defintely seeing this with ITU popularity and how fast you have to be to make the first pack then put that same emphasis on AG non draft short course racing swim times are coming down. More and more young people who grew up swimming are finding they have a second sport bike/run they are pretty good at and they didn't know it because all of their time was spent in the water and you are now seeing the results. Remember Macca never was able to get his swims times down to the current ITU levels when he made his attempt at the Olympics.

But for a lot of people putting in that much work on the swim just doesn't pay great dividends.

2014-04-16 7:29 AM
in reply to: tri/tbay

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
Originally posted by tri/tbay
But for a lot of people putting in that much work on the swim just doesn't pay great dividends.




Swimming is a very time consuming thing.

Commute time to pools, very specific pool schedules and other logistic factors make it hard to squeeze in for many AGers

Unfortunately, most people wanting to swim more have to do it at the expense of running or biking and are not coming out ahead.
2014-04-16 7:39 AM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....

Originally posted by LarchmontTri Just got back from the pool and have a few rambling thoughts... I'm not a swimmer. There, I said it...and I'm ok with it. I pretty much taught myself to survive the swim leg...well, it's not that bad, but I'm certainly not 'fast' in the water (~1:50/100 on a good day). I'm much faster and more efficient now than I was when I started, and that's a victory right there. I'm happy to get through the swim leg and back onto dry land. I know I should be worried about my 100 times, improving the efficiency of stroke, decreasing drag, etc., and perhaps if I had a coach or joined a master swim group I could get faster, but to be honest I just don't think it's all that important...I know I should care, but I just don't. So, I'll get through the swim legs of my races this year, I'm not worried about that, but I'm just not all geeked-up to put in the work to make a significant improvement. There's only so many hours in the day, and swimming takes a back seat to just about everything else. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this (or am I?), but it is what it is. Perhaps I'm a candidate for a Dr. Phil intervention or something...

I'm going to come at this from a different angle.  The more I've swum, the more I've enjoyed it.  Of course, that might be because I've really enjoyed my masters group, and it's great to have people to do the workouts with.  My solo swimming has also improved quite a bit.

As for races, I dunno, I derive a personal challenge in trying to do better.  If you don't, that's fine.  Pick your own goals.

2014-04-16 7:41 AM
in reply to: tri/tbay

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
I think the biggest issue with swimming is the work needed to get gains. Conditioning isn’t as important, but bad form will burn you fast, if you have poor form you fight the water using more energy to go slower. Running and cycling are not as dependent on form, you have aero and technology to cut weight and decrease drag, etc. Running you have optimal energy transfer and graceful mechanics. But swimming is another beast.

I grew up competitively swimming, and found out I can run, cycling is my weak link and I need to work hard at it, but what I know of swimming, I can minimally get into 1:20 pace with 2x a week pool sessions, and I am fine with that, it puts me FOP. I could work harder, but the gains slow for the amount of effort required, you see far more gains on the other two legs with those precious training sessions. I remember swimming backstroke and it took me majority of a season to drop for 1:00 to sub :57 in my 100 back, at the time :57 was section qualifying time. I wasn’t the fastest guy in the water but that’s the amount of effort to trim that time was months of work. With that time frame I could probably drop :30 off my mile pace (I currently run 7:30 range) but there is gains to be made there, I think if you get to 6:00 you can focus you effort on another discipline to round out your skills.

Sorry for the rant, but I think there is two key hurdles to swim skills, one being that the work required to learn and refine proper technique and form is a slow process, body position and floating is the first part, then it can get to you kicking and breathing, down to you wrist position and elbows on your pull. Sure I could refine and drill my stroke every time I enter the water, but like I said I know I am FOP in the water so I can focus my efforts elsewhere.

The second issue I see is gains, as I mentioned you don’t see the gains unless you spend a lot of time in the water, it’s about yardage, like time in the saddle, and mileage. Not many people have the time or desire to get 4x sessions of 4500-5000 yds a week. You will probably see more elites of top finishers cut times In the water, I don’t see many people getting better than the 22-25 MPH on the bike, and going sub 6:00, The last frontier is the swim, I think you could see people drop to sub 1:00 pace, not just a outlier in the field.
2014-04-16 8:05 AM
in reply to: GotBackup

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
Time to invest for improvement is a big thing. I swim mostly just to keep my yardage up, and occasionally do specific drills for form or speed, but not often. It takes a lot of time to make a dent in your swim times, and for someone who still has a lot of ground to make up on the swim or bike, that's a bigger return.


2014-04-16 8:19 AM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
The issue for me is time. I've dedicated myself to swimming a bit more this year, because I felt like last year I was actually getting slower in the pool (not enough time invested). I also need to continue improving on the bike. Given a limited amount of training time, I'm more likely to invest in bike training where I can reduce my overall time by a more significant amount compared to the swim. I'm all for getting better in all three disciplines, but like most AGers, I have a job and a finite amount of time to train.
2014-04-16 8:45 AM
in reply to: LarchmontTri

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....

Originally posted by LarchmontTri Just got back from the pool and have a few rambling thoughts... I'm not a swimmer. There, I said it...and I'm ok with it. I pretty much taught myself to survive the swim leg...well, it's not that bad, but I'm certainly not 'fast' in the water (~1:50/100 on a good day). I'm much faster and more efficient now than I was when I started, and that's a victory right there. I'm happy to get through the swim leg and back onto dry land. I know I should be worried about my 100 times, improving the efficiency of stroke, decreasing drag, etc., and perhaps if I had a coach or joined a master swim group I could get faster, but to be honest I just don't think it's all that important...I know I should care, but I just don't. So, I'll get through the swim legs of my races this year, I'm not worried about that, but I'm just not all geeked-up to put in the work to make a significant improvement. There's only so many hours in the day, and swimming takes a back seat to just about everything else. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this (or am I?), but it is what it is. Perhaps I'm a candidate for a Dr. Phil intervention or something...

This basically summarizes my current attitude towards swimming. 

As other have said above, with limited time to train, to make any decent gains in my swim would be at the sacrifice of the bike and run.

Last season I was similar to the OP at about 1:50/100 meters and I ended up on the podium (for my AG) for the majority of my Sprint races - the bike and particularly the run ended up saving me.

To be clear, these are the local Sprint tris and not AG nationals - roughly between 300 to 500 racers.

Looking back at a few races, sure there were guys in my AG swimming 1:30/100 but then they would run at 5:00/km and lose their lead.

Its possible last year was an exception and I won't be competitive this year, but for the time being there is no incentive to drastically improve my swim when I was doing well relative to my AG.

2014-04-16 9:12 AM
in reply to: ponderingfox

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Subject: RE: Waving the white flag....
Originally posted by ponderingfox

Originally posted by LarchmontTri Just got back from the pool and have a few rambling thoughts... I'm not a swimmer. There, I said it...and I'm ok with it. I pretty much taught myself to survive the swim leg...well, it's not that bad, but I'm certainly not 'fast' in the water (~1:50/100 on a good day). I'm much faster and more efficient now than I was when I started, and that's a victory right there. I'm happy to get through the swim leg and back onto dry land. I know I should be worried about my 100 times, improving the efficiency of stroke, decreasing drag, etc., and perhaps if I had a coach or joined a master swim group I could get faster, but to be honest I just don't think it's all that important...I know I should care, but I just don't. So, I'll get through the swim legs of my races this year, I'm not worried about that, but I'm just not all geeked-up to put in the work to make a significant improvement. There's only so many hours in the day, and swimming takes a back seat to just about everything else. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this (or am I?), but it is what it is. Perhaps I'm a candidate for a Dr. Phil intervention or something...

I'm going to come at this from a different angle.  The more I've swum, the more I've enjoyed it.  Of course, that might be because I've really enjoyed my masters group, and it's great to have people to do the workouts with.  My solo swimming has also improved quite a bit.

As for races, I dunno, I derive a personal challenge in trying to do better.  If you don't, that's fine.  Pick your own goals.




I'm always trying to do better, and I'm quite competitive with myself - I aim to set a PR in each race I do - so that's not the issue. I just know there's a ceiling for me given my current work/life/training balance, and the swim leg is low priority for me (ok, very low priority). I don't race tris for podium spots...I race to stay healthy and to have a good day out.

I know there's an opportunity to save time on my swim, but it's not 'low hanging fruit'. To make it happen requires alot of investment on my behalf, and that's the part that I'm not willing to commit to. I could bust my a$$ and save some time, but is it really worth it for me given my race goals? For me, the answer is no.

Perhaps I've watched Office Space and Dodgeball too many times....

http://youtu.be/g2_Yi-1Ryf4

http://youtu.be/YtaCF0A5wWw




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