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2014-12-08 7:40 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by juneapple

We'll see if going into the 55s will give me a little added incentive . . .

Stu

It occurs to me, now that you have aged up, you are the "youngster in the group!  All of us older guys are easy pickens for all you younger guys! 




Hey, I'm pumped, too. I move up to 60-64 on January 1!

Steve


2014-12-08 9:29 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Hey Scott:

Here's one for you...an Aussie coach that advocates pool aids for new swimmers as much as they want. Comments?

http://trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/

Steve
2014-12-09 6:00 AM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Originally posted by lutzman

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by juneapple

We'll see if going into the 55s will give me a little added incentive . . .

Stu

It occurs to me, now that you have aged up, you are the "youngster in the group!  All of us older guys are easy pickens for all you younger guys! 




Hey, I'm pumped, too. I move up to 60-64 on January 1!

Steve


Aging up - the only benefit to birthdays! It does seem that quite a few people start dropping out mid 50s. In one of our local tri race series, the number of annual entries in 2014 (male anyway) went from 385 in the 50s to 202 in the 55s to 103 in the 60s - almost a 50% drop-off each year. Running seems kind of similar - in the Richmond half there were 302 entries for the 50-54, 226 for the 55-59 and 111 for the 60s. Not quite as steep, but very similar. Anyway, we need to stick together, folks - apparently these gray years can be a bit rocky :-)

Stu
2014-12-09 8:03 AM
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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion

Originally posted by lutzman

Hey Scott:

Here's one for you...an Aussie coach that advocates pool aids for new swimmers as much as they want. Comments?

http://trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/

Steve

Steve,

My short answer:  Yeah, not so much.

My long answer:

Let me start by saying I don't like to "argue" with other coaches.  I don't for a moment believe that my coaching philosophy is the only one or necessarily the best one.  My way works for me and has worked for the athletes I have been privileged to work with.  I try to be open to other ideas as that is where learning takes place, however, in my mind a new idea has to "make sense."  I am not sure I see where this particular idea makes sense.

While I am not a fan of pull buoys I am a fan of paddles and bands once a week or once every other week, although NOT for the reason most people advocate them.  I view paddles as a stroke technique tool rather than a strength tool.  All too often, I hear, "Use paddles to make you stronger."  You can do the same thing in a gym, far more quickly, and far more targeted so I don't agree with the premise of using paddles for strength.

In the context of the article you shared - I don't really agree with his philosophy.  Yeah, I know, he has a pretty impressive resume of athlete achievements.  The question is, did the coach make the athlete, or did the athlete make the coach?  I am not saying he isn't a good coach so please don't take it that way.  I merely relate back to my swimming days - my coach, Jim Montrella, was a phenomenal coach.  Yet, as more and more of his swimmers excelled, more and more REALLY fast swimmers came - from around the world - to train with him, leading to more of "his" swimmers excelling.  Was that the coach making the athlete or the athlete making the coach?

So, removing the luster of an impressive resume, back to the pull buoy debate.  I prefer not to use or have athletes use pull buoys because they can indeed be a crutch.  I mentioned earlier that I use paddles and pull sets specifically to work on stroke technique.  Part of technique is proper position in the water.  While using a pull buoy will get your legs in to the proper position, it does nothing towards training you to keep them there.  Can it be advantageous for a new swimmer to use a pull buoy in the beginning to develop an understanding of what proper position is?  Yes, absolutely.  Should that extend beyond one or two workouts?  I don't believe so.  I think you have to develop the core strength and "feel" so you can position your legs properly.  Then there is the inevitable question of, "What happens when the pull buoy is removed?" 

In the article it seems that Brett advocates, or at least accepts, using pull buoys all the time, even outside of pull sets.  To my way of thinking, if you want to be a good swimmer, you need to swim.  No frills, just swim.  Brett says, "Pull-buoys also mimic wetsuit swimming, which is an entirely different body position than normal non-wetsuit position."  Isn't that just replacing one crutch for another one?  If you technique is good and you are positioned properly in the water without a buoy then using a wetsuit will merely raise you higher in the water, much like a speedboat going up on plane - potentially making you several seconds per 100 faster.

Then he goes on to say, "As for the inevitable question about how athletes then cope in a non wetsuit legal race? The answer is far better than if they wasted the preceding months thrashing away like a frog in a blender, increasing their swim ability by zero."  Herein lies my biggest complaint with coaching today - Allowing toys to supplant good coaching.  If an athlete is thrashing away like a frog in a blender than that is a coaching failure.  One of a coaches primary jobs is to provide technique direction such that an athlete learns proper mechanics and does not thrash around the pool.  Toys are not going to replace that.  Now, I don't know how many people are in the water during these workouts.  I do know from my days of coaching an age-group swim team that there is a difference between coaching one person and coaching 50.  Regardless of the number of swimmers in the water however, a good coach will provide proper coaching to improve technique and using toys to replace proper coaching direction is just wrong.

Finally, the article talks about the so-called improvement of the swimmers making extensive use of a buoy.  For example, "SOME SWIMMER (16 x IM Winner) never swam outside of a race without her swim toys. Never. She went from a 1hr 07min swimmer to get to the stage where she was swimming around 53 minutes with a wetsuit in most of her later Ironman swims."  That seems to support the notion of using the toys.  But if we look closer, not so much.  She has completed at least 16 IM's since she has won that many, maybe more?  How many IM's can you reasonably do in a single season?  3?  4?  In any case, we are talking about a career that likely spans at least 4-8 years.  In the times cited, she started at around a 1:35/100 yard pace so clearly she had been swimming for some time before this.  She dropped from 1:07 to :53, an improvement of 14 minutes.  Stated another way, that is an improvement of 20 seconds per 100 yards or from +/- 1:35/100 yards to 1:15/100 yards.  Nice improvement but was that improvement because of the toys or was it because of the additional yards that were put in during training across the years in the example?  How much better might it have been if technique were correct and didn't rely upon a crutch to get into the proper body position?  Of course that leads to the question of "How fast SHOULD you go in the swim?"  That question is for another discussion on another day.

At the end of the day, I clearly have a different philosophy than Brett Sutton.  I believe a swimmer (and yes that includes Triathletes) should put on a speedo, get in the water and swim.  Learn to do it correctly, and put in the yards.  The results will come.

In answer to your question about the article, yeah, not so much.



Edited by k9car363 2014-12-09 8:14 AM
2014-12-09 9:29 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by lutzman

Hey Scott:

Here's one for you...an Aussie coach that advocates pool aids for new swimmers as much as they want. Comments?

http://trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/

Steve

Steve,

My short answer:  Yeah, not so much.

My long answer:

Let me start by saying I don't like to "argue" with other coaches.  I believe a swimmer (and yes that includes Triathletes) should put on a speedo, get in the water and swim.  Learn to do it correctly, and put in the yards.  The results will come.

In answer to your question about the article, yeah, not so much.




I thought that article might fire you up! Nice response.

Steve
2014-12-09 1:20 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Steve, funny response...lol

Ok update, after this I'll quit bothering ya'll with updates...lol I got a call from the orthopedic, my next appointment after my last one is not until Jan 7th! What a FIASCO!!!!! Shoot by then I will have lost ALL fitness. It is looking like I may not be doing my next marathon either which is Feb. 8. I have already canceled my Ultra this weekend. I just got back from trying to run, I could have kept going but I was afraid I was doing more damage, it was just a medium sting in the ankle so it is getting better, just not fast. 2 weeks ago it hurt so bad I could not put any weight on it

How do ya'll handle injuries. I was so excited getting in marathon shape, now I'm about as low as I can get. I am biking and lifting but I miss running. If I knew what it was it wouldn't be so bad, not sure if I'm doing things right or wrong but seeing others prepping for the Ultra and I'm side lined SUX!!!

W got to see a presentation last night where 2 of our running club member just ran the 100 mile Himalaya's run in October. It was a slide show and they talked about each slide. It was an amazing experience for them.


2014-12-09 3:13 PM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: aging & injuries
Karl, you seem a little discouraged with your injury; and there have been several comments about aging.
Both of these things happen. Our task is not just to swim/bike/run longer, faster races: our tasks are to know ourselves better, to gain a little wisdom & to encourage others.
Karl..hah hah! You're still a young man, relatively, and will have hundreds of opportunities to run marathons & ultras. It seems right now you're having to learn patience, which will enrich you. You also are in an opportunity to deepen your understanding of injury. It doesn't appear that anyone is going to provide you with a recovery program tailored to you, so you will need to discover it on your own. This may take time but will make you a smarter runner, taking less for granted.
These are some of the things I have discovered for myself from my injury; they will certainly be different for you:
Take running mechanics seriously. I spent months taking video of each run (I just stood my camera on a wall or stump), editing out the dead spots, and looking at them in slow-motion with some specialists in running form.'You want to know that you're not hurting yourself.
Take stretching seriously. I spend a minimum of 18 minute/day foam rolling & stretching. Religiously. That's not counting the warm-ups.
Aqua-running! If it's good for the elites, it's good for you & me!
Also swimming is just wonderful therapy for your running injuries. I couldn't run if I didn't swim.
You asked a little while ago about the StrengthRunning program I'm now following for injury prevention and in preparation for my running races. The main distinction between this program and others is that there's a lot of flexibility, core, and hip-strengthening work that comes directly before and after the prescribed running workouts. Since starting 5 weeks ago, I have not had to miss a single workout due to flare-up of my old injuries. Before that, there were about 2 per month, which really hurt my training consistency. Your injury is different from mine, but you should check out the website. Even email Jason a question about your case; he answers, gives high priority to injury-prevention, and knows a lot.
Also, if you can, find a body-worker that helps you. In my case it's an ART therapist, but it might be a PT, massage therapist, whatever works for you.
Hope this all helps.
Don't give up! This is the prize: when you're a really old old guy you'll still be fit enough to do all the fun things you want to do! Look around you at all the people who made a different choice and are living out an incapacitated old age.
Deb



2014-12-09 3:26 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Originally posted by juneapple

Aging up - the only benefit to birthdays! It does seem that quite a few people start dropping out mid 50s. In one of our local tri race series, the number of annual entries in 2014 (male anyway) went from 385 in the 50s to 202 in the 55s to 103 in the 60s - almost a 50% drop-off each year. Running seems kind of similar - in the Richmond half there were 302 entries for the 50-54, 226 for the 55-59 and 111 for the 60s. Not quite as steep, but very similar. Anyway, we need to stick together, folks - apparently these gray years can be a bit rocky :-)

Stu


Really interesting numbers Stu. I agree, the drop-off is likely caused by chronic injuries.

I am finally 100% (knock on wood) after the calf injury last spring. It was the type of injury I would have run through in my 20's, but at 55 it required weeks of no running followed by months of slowly building back the distance. I finally ran 7 miles on Saturday. Boy did that feel good!

None of the training plans on BT are specifically designed for us gray hairs. Being that it is easier to get injured and harder to heal when you are a gray hair, are there some standard modifications we should make to the plan we adopt? For example, should we automatically extend the training period (25 weeks instead of 20 weeks) and reduce the rate at which the volume is built? Other ideas?

Thanks!
Scott I.

Edited by EchoLkScott 2014-12-09 3:32 PM
2014-12-09 5:38 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion

Karl,

X2 on all the recommendations from Deb.  When I had a muscle tear somewhere in my hip area earlier this year, the doc told me I could do whatever did not hurt.  Running hurt.  I could not jog more than 15-20 strides at first.  So, I spent more time on the bike, tried out aqua-jogging (didn't really like it, but you can get a good workout that way), did 2-3 sessions per week on an elliptical (it did not hurt and I liked it more than the aqua-jogging) and kept on swimming.   I ran very little for 13 weeks and although I lost some fitness, I did not lose that much (2-3 minutes off my 10k time) and I was able to ramp up quite quickly after healing.

Finding a good massage therapist or PT or whatever, as Deb mentioned, can help a lot.  I found a really good massage therapist that literally keeps me in the game.  I have also learned the hard way that you have to listen to your body (and I still have my days where I don't listen).  If it hurts and for me this applies mostly to running, back off and ride your bike or swim.  

Hang in there!

 

 

2014-12-09 6:08 PM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion

I had a long post started and the dragon computer just ate it.

Summary in cliff notes:  go see my logs in 2010.  I started the season on a very high note with PR's at a HM and 10K and was building well towards my first attempt at a HIM.  Had a bad asthma flare  with bronchitis.  2 rounds antibiotics and a month (yes you read that correctly) of steroids.  Sick as a  proverbial DOG.  Missed a race that I really liked.....did an Oly in July that SUCKED cause it was over 100 degrees that day (river was 95 deg for the swim)....a week after the race I tore the big muscle in the calf (gastrocnemius)  Shredded it.  Took a while to get a Dr appointment so I used compression on it and did easy things......got the boot and off completely from running/ biking for a month.

My PT kept me for a total of 10 months.  He was going to release me after close to 5 months when the "good" leg went bad.  His parting shot to me on my final discharge was that I didn't have another HM in my legs --not even certain if there was a 10K in them.

So in my down time this is what I did:  swim only for the first 3 months.  Did nothing for my stroke and nothing to help me enjoy it.  Still avoid the pool.

Once allowed to cross train I did easy bike workouts.  Eased int jog-walk intervals and worked my way up to longer distances.  It was a cause to celebrate when I ran 3 miles nonstop.

Got to work with a trainer so that as I got back into shape I was doing it with correct guidance....strength training and other cross training classes at the gym.

Proved the PT wrong.  Since my discharge I have done 3 HM, a bunch of 10K, several sprint and Oly distance triathlons and one miserable marathon (not doing another)

Go to the gym and do other things.  Strength train to correct weakness and imbalances.  I find as we age we need that more.  Particularly if you have a sedentary job where you are hunched over a computer all day.  

Not saying it's going to be easy to do something other than the preferred workout....cause it isn't.  But, I now know that throwing a medicine ball at a wall feels as therapeutic as a hard run to me. (especially if you visualize when person you are most angry with on the wall as your target)

 

2014-12-09 8:25 PM
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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

 . . .None of the training plans on BT are specifically designed for us gray hairs. Being that it is easier to get injured and harder to heal when you are a gray hair, are there some standard modifications we should make to the plan we adopt? For example, should we automatically extend the training period (25 weeks instead of 20 weeks) and reduce the rate at which the volume is built? Other ideas?

Thanks!

Scott I.

Scott,

That is a good question, and one that doesn't have an easy answer so I will be looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

I think the first thing is starting with a plan that is consistent with your race plans and goals.  You obviously don't need an Ironman plan if you plan is to do a sprint triathlon.  You also need to determine your goal(s).  For example, is your goal to FINISH a sprint triathlon or is it to PODIUM FINISH a sprint triathlon?  Those divergent goals will require different training.

The next thing is to come up with the plan that is appropriate for the distance, consistent with your goals and takes into account your individual needs - i.e. want to podium finish, gray athlete, etc..  You can write your own, you can use a generic pre-written plan (such as those here on BT), you can take a generic plan and customize it to your needs, or you can hire a coach.

When I was doing my own plan, I started with a plan here on BT and then I modified it for my needs.  I use a formula that keeps my volume build in line.  I give 1 point for each 100 yards swimming, 1 point for each mile on the bike, and 1 point for each 1/4 mile running.  100 yards swimming = 1 mile cycling = 1/4 mile running.  I then total up all the points for the current week.  Next week, my training can't go beyond 110-115% of the current week points.  An example:

Say this week you run, ride, and swim three times each.

Run - 3, 5, 3 = 11 miles = 44 points

Cycling - 15, 25, 10 = 50 miles = 50 points

Swim - 1K, 1K, 1K = 3,000 yards = 30 points

Total points for the week is 124.  Next week can't go beyond 110-115% of current week, 136-143 points.

So next week might look something like:

Run - 4, 5, 3 = 12 miles = 48 points

Cycling - 18, 25, 12 = 53 miles = 55 points

Swim - 1.2K, 1.2K, 1.2K = 3,600 yards = 36 points

Total points for the week is 139 points.  Next week can't go beyond 110-115% of current week, 153-160 points.

Depending upon your volume, you may want to add a recovery week.  I generally have a recovery week every 4th week.  So you would build according to the above schedule for three consecutive weeks, then the fourth week drop the volume between 20-30% of the current week depending upon how much total volume you are doing.  The week after recovery would be slightly more volume than the week before recovery.

Something like this:

1 - workout

2 - build

3 - build

4 - recovery (week 3 minus 20-30%)

5 - equal to week 3 plus 1-3%

6- build

7 - build

8 - recovery

Using a system like that will allow you to take a professionally written plan and modify it to your needs.  If you feel you need extra work in one discipline, say your feel your cycling is weak, you could adjust the cycling volume upwards but keeping the overall points within the limits.  If you want to extend the plan, you can do so, using the formula to keep your volume in line.  Remember if you add weeks, you don't want your build to stagnate, meaning you want a healthy build each week.  You can certainly add weeks if the pre-written plan takes bigger volume builds than you are comfortable with.  If you want to stretch things out, simply lower the build each week, maybe 106-109% of current week points.

The plans here on BT are not necessarily written with a podium finish in mind so if your goal is to be highly competitive or stand atop the podium, you will likely need to increase intensity in the later weeks of the plan and maybe add a week or two focusing on intensity and speed work.  If you add intensity, you may want to consider NOT adding volume or even reducing volume marginally to prevent injury.

Finally, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!  If you body says you need a rest, then either cut back a day or skip a day entirely.  Try not to make that a regular habit, but listening to what your body is telling you will help avoid injury.

Hopefully that will help and maybe give you a starting point.



Edited by k9car363 2014-12-09 8:34 PM


2014-12-10 5:53 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Thanks everyone. I took the advice and tried the eleptical, I have never really used one before and never even thought about that machine but I tried it and it didn't hurt my ankle, maybe a 1.5 on a scale from 1 - 10 so I will use it as medical equipment..

Yes I love taking my body to the limit, my wife gets mad because I still act like I'm 20, that is good and bad but I just love taking my body to the limit. Did ya'll watch the shoe the Biggest Loser when Jillian was on there, she was my favorite trainer, because she pushed the people. When I used to fish the pro bass trail I would go all day w/o eating or drinking just to get 1 more cast in and hopefully catch 1 more fish, now that I look back, that wasn't so smart. I guess that is why I get up at 3:22 to work out..lol

Ya'll have a wonderful day.

karl
2014-12-11 6:40 PM
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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

 . . .None of the training plans on BT are specifically designed for us gray hairs. I give 1 point for each 100 yards swimming, 1 point for each mile on the bike, and 1 point for each 1/4 mile running.  100 yards swimming = 1 mile cycling = 1/4 mile running.  I then total up all the points for the current week.  Next week, my training can't go beyond 110-115% of the current week points.  An example:

Say this week you run, ride, and swim three times each.

Run - 3, 5, 3 = 11 miles = 44 points

Cycling - 15, 25, 10 = 50 miles = 50 points

Swim - 1K, 1K, 1K = 3,000 yards = 30 points

Total points for the week is 124.  Next week can't go beyond 110-115% of current week, 136-143 points.

So next week might look something like:

Run - 4, 5, 3 = 12 miles = 48 points

Cycling - 18, 25, 12 = 53 miles = 55 points

Swim - 1.2K, 1.2K, 1.2K = 3,600 yards = 36 points

Total points for the week is 139 points.  Next week can't go beyond 110-115% of current week, 153-160 points.

Depending upon your volume, you may want to add a recovery week.  I generally have a recovery week every 4th week.  So you would build according to the above schedule for three consecutive weeks, then the fourth week drop the volume between 20-30% of the current week depending upon how much total volume you are doing.  The week after recovery would be slightly more volume than the week before recovery.

Something like this:

1 - workout

2 - build

3 - build

4 - recovery (week 3 minus 20-30%)

5 - equal to week 3 plus 1-3%

6- build

7 - build

8 - recovery

Using a system like that will allow you to take a professionally written plan and modify it to your needs.  If you feel you need extra work in one discipline, say your feel your cycling is weak, you could adjust the cycling volume upwards but keeping the overall points within the limits.  If you want to extend the plan, you can do so, using the formula to keep your volume in line.  Remember if you add weeks, you don't want your build to stagnate, meaning you want a healthy build each week.  You can certainly add weeks if the pre-written plan takes bigger volume builds than you are comfortable with.  If you want to stretch things out, simply lower the build each week, maybe 106-109% of current week points.

The plans here on BT are not necessarily written with a podium finish in mind so if your goal is to be highly competitive or stand atop the podium, you will likely need to increase intensity in the later weeks of the plan and maybe add a week or two focusing on intensity and speed work.  If you add intensity, you may want to consider NOT adding volume or even reducing volume marginally to prevent injury.

Finally, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!  If you body says you need a rest, then either cut back a day or skip a day entirely.  Try not to make that a regular habit, but listening to what your body is telling you will help avoid injury.

Hopefully that will help and maybe give you a starting point.




Scott--this looks like a really nice and fairly easy way to gauge training and build volume over time. It's always tough for us gray guys to scale up the training load because we just don't have the recuperative powers of our younger under 40 competitors.

The wild card for me is intensity. I'm usually trying to balance two factors--first, what I think my own current capabilities are relative to my race pace objectives, and second, what the podium paces are for the guys in my age group. If those two align, it's all good as I've got a potential shot to get to the AG podium. I'm usually scanning the USA Triathlon ranking page to locate the competitive paces I need to hold to have a chance....or at least know what I'd like to do to be in the mix (AG top 10 or whatever).

But the challenge for me is as I really can't add much intensity in weeks where I'm adding volume. Combining those two seem to be the the trigger for stress induced injury. So, I've got to use a system like yours, but then build in weeks where the volume is constant but the intensity ramps up through track workouts or sprints on the bike. The trick is it's very tough to develop an objective measurement for "intensity"....especially when trying to figure the cumulative impact of intensity over time, say 7 weeks into a 12 week program when fatigue is becoming a factor.

Nice post.

Steve

Edited by lutzman 2014-12-11 6:45 PM
2014-12-11 6:51 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: Unexpected Christmas gift
Well, I didn't expect this email after missing nearly all of the 2014 race injury after my crash in Florida.

USA Triathlon
3:45 PM (1 hour ago)

Hi Steven,

Congratulations! You've qualified for the 2015 USA Triathlon Olympic-Distance National Championships in Milwaukee, WI. Below is your registration link to register for the event, which takes place August 8, 2015. For more information about the event, visit usatriathlon.org/AGNCOlympic. For registration questions contact [email protected]. If you prefer to register for the Sprint event, simply visit: http://www.active.com/milwaukee-wi/triathlon/races/usa-triathlon-ag...

You bet I'm signing up.

Guess I better quick making excuses.

Happy Day!

Steve
2014-12-11 7:45 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Hello everyone. Daniel here.
I enjoy reading all the posts. It has been a busy week. I joined a nice health club three minutes from the house. It has a very nice pool. I have also started to look on the calendar for a sprint tri at the end of June. I was really nervous to go to the health club for the first time tonight. I weighed myself. 262 - my highest ever! I am 6'0" and have to figure a conditioning and strength plan.

Looking forward to sharing my journey.
Daniel
2014-12-11 7:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Unexpected Christmas gift

Originally posted by lutzman

Well, I didn't expect this email after missing nearly all of the 2014 race injury after my crash in Florida.

USA Triathlon <[email protected]> 3:45 PM (1 hour ago) Hi Steven, Congratulations! You've qualified for the 2015 USA Triathlon Olympic-Distance National Championships in Milwaukee, WI. Below is your registration link to register for the event, which takes place August 8, 2015. For more information about the event, visit usatriathlon.org/AGNCOlympic. For registration questions contact [email protected]. If you prefer to register for the Sprint event, simply visit: http://www.active.com/milwaukee-wi/triathlon/races/usa-triathlon-age-group-national-championships

You bet I'm signing up.

Guess I better quick making excuses.

Happy Day!

Steve

Congratulations Steve!

Looks like it is time to get back to it!  Sorry to say, that includes the pool too!

Edited because I can't spell!



Edited by k9car363 2014-12-11 8:17 PM


2014-12-11 8:08 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion

Originally posted by lutzman

Scott--this looks like a really nice and fairly easy way to gauge training and build volume over time. It's always tough for us gray guys to scale up the training load because we just don't have the recuperative powers of our younger under 40 competitors.

The wild card for me is intensity. I'm usually trying to balance two factors--first, what I think my own current capabilities are relative to my race pace objectives, and second, what the podium paces are for the guys in my age group. If those two align, it's all good as I've got a potential shot to get to the AG podium. I'm usually scanning the USA Triathlon ranking page to locate the competitive paces I need to hold to have a chance....or at least know what I'd like to do to be in the mix (AG top 10 or whatever).

But the challenge for me is as I really can't add much intensity in weeks where I'm adding volume. Combining those two seem to be the the trigger for stress induced injury. So, I've got to use a system like yours, but then build in weeks where the volume is constant but the intensity ramps up through track workouts or sprints on the bike. The trick is it's very tough to develop an objective measurement for "intensity"....especially when trying to figure the cumulative impact of intensity over time, say 7 weeks into a 12 week program when fatigue is becoming a factor.

Nice post.

Steve

Thanks Steve.

Intensity is definitely the wild card.  I have tried for a couple years to find a way to change the formula I shared and include an intensity variable as you calculate appropriate build.  The problem is intensity is indeed a variable.  Volume is fairly easy to model in a linear fashion.  Intensity is not.  When you add the two together it becomes very difficult.  Then on top of that, your physiological response to a training stimulus is going to be different than my response to the same stimulus, which is going to be different than John Does.  Trying to capture all of that in a simple to use formula is a challenge to say the least.  I imagine that there is a PhD/MD somewhere that has years worth of empirical data that can accurately predict/model a training plan but for me, at the end of the day, I do it the old fashion way.  The weeks I am increasing intensity, I lower the volume build and visa versa.  Above all else, I listen to my body and having an objective third party in the form of a coach helps.   It's worked so far.

2014-12-12 5:55 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Steve, congrats on the qualification!!!!!

Steve, that is an excellent training plan. I never thought to cut back on volume when increasing intensity. Thanks for the tip!

I had the MRI yesterday and ya'll didn't tell me how loud it was going to be. They even furnished earplugs...no kidding...

Ya'll have a GREAT day and train hard and smart!
2014-12-12 6:46 AM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion

Originally posted by KWDreamun Steve, congrats on the qualification!!!!! Steve, that is an excellent training plan. I never thought to cut back on volume when increasing intensity. Thanks for the tip! I had the MRI yesterday and ya'll didn't tell me how loud it was going to be. They even furnished earplugs...no kidding... Ya'll have a GREAT day and train hard and smart! [/QUOTE}

 

HA!! An MRI has been equated to being in a coffin with jackhammers pounding overhead.  (by my old family doc back in PA.

2014-12-12 1:11 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Originally posted by lutzman

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

 . . .None of the training plans on BT are specifically designed for us gray hairs. I give 1 point for each 100 yards swimming, 1 point for each mile on the bike, and 1 point for each 1/4 mile running.  100 yards swimming = 1 mile cycling = 1/4 mile running.  I then total up all the points for the current week.  Next week, my training can't go beyond 110-115% of the current week points.  An example:

Say this week you run, ride, and swim three times each.

Run - 3, 5, 3 = 11 miles = 44 points

Cycling - 15, 25, 10 = 50 miles = 50 points

Swim - 1K, 1K, 1K = 3,000 yards = 30 points

Total points for the week is 124.  Next week can't go beyond 110-115% of current week, 136-143 points.

So next week might look something like:

Run - 4, 5, 3 = 12 miles = 48 points

Cycling - 18, 25, 12 = 53 miles = 55 points

Swim - 1.2K, 1.2K, 1.2K = 3,600 yards = 36 points

Total points for the week is 139 points.  Next week can't go beyond 110-115% of current week, 153-160 points.

Depending upon your volume, you may want to add a recovery week.  I generally have a recovery week every 4th week.  So you would build according to the above schedule for three consecutive weeks, then the fourth week drop the volume between 20-30% of the current week depending upon how much total volume you are doing.  The week after recovery would be slightly more volume than the week before recovery.

Something like this:

1 - workout

2 - build

3 - build

4 - recovery (week 3 minus 20-30%)

5 - equal to week 3 plus 1-3%

6- build

7 - build

8 - recovery

Using a system like that will allow you to take a professionally written plan and modify it to your needs.  If you feel you need extra work in one discipline, say your feel your cycling is weak, you could adjust the cycling volume upwards but keeping the overall points within the limits.  If you want to extend the plan, you can do so, using the formula to keep your volume in line.  Remember if you add weeks, you don't want your build to stagnate, meaning you want a healthy build each week.  You can certainly add weeks if the pre-written plan takes bigger volume builds than you are comfortable with.  If you want to stretch things out, simply lower the build each week, maybe 106-109% of current week points.

The plans here on BT are not necessarily written with a podium finish in mind so if your goal is to be highly competitive or stand atop the podium, you will likely need to increase intensity in the later weeks of the plan and maybe add a week or two focusing on intensity and speed work.  If you add intensity, you may want to consider NOT adding volume or even reducing volume marginally to prevent injury.

Finally, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!  If you body says you need a rest, then either cut back a day or skip a day entirely.  Try not to make that a regular habit, but listening to what your body is telling you will help avoid injury.

Hopefully that will help and maybe give you a starting point.




Scott--this looks like a really nice and fairly easy way to gauge training and build volume over time. It's always tough for us gray guys to scale up the training load because we just don't have the recuperative powers of our younger under 40 competitors.

The wild card for me is intensity. I'm usually trying to balance two factors--first, what I think my own current capabilities are relative to my race pace objectives, and second, what the podium paces are for the guys in my age group. If those two align, it's all good as I've got a potential shot to get to the AG podium. I'm usually scanning the USA Triathlon ranking page to locate the competitive paces I need to hold to have a chance....or at least know what I'd like to do to be in the mix (AG top 10 or whatever).

But the challenge for me is as I really can't add much intensity in weeks where I'm adding volume. Combining those two seem to be the the trigger for stress induced injury. So, I've got to use a system like yours, but then build in weeks where the volume is constant but the intensity ramps up through track workouts or sprints on the bike. The trick is it's very tough to develop an objective measurement for "intensity"....especially when trying to figure the cumulative impact of intensity over time, say 7 weeks into a 12 week program when fatigue is becoming a factor.

Nice post.

Steve


Thanks Scott & Steve. Great information!

On the build weeks, do you build volume (or intensity) for all three sports simultaneously? Or, do you focus on one or two sports at a time while holding the volume (or intensity) of the others steady?

I ask this because of my recent experience. I joined a masters swim team which lead to a big jump in both volume and intensity of my swim. For the first month or so I was struggling just to maintain the volume of my run when I really should have been growing it. For the last week and a half I've been on vacation in Hawaii (less swim volume) and the miles and minutes just seem to flow by on the run. All of the BT plans seem to grow all sports at the same gradual rate but, is there any benefit to surging forward in one sport and then the next? Just curious.

Thanks!
Scott I.
2014-12-12 1:15 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: Unexpected Christmas gift
Originally posted by lutzman

Hi Steven,

Congratulations! You've qualified for the 2015 USA Triathlon Olympic-Distance National Championships in Milwaukee, WI. Below is your registration link to register for the event, which takes place August 8, 2015. For more information about the event, visit usatriathlon.org/AGNCOlympic. For registration questions contact [email protected]. If you prefer to register for the Sprint event, simply visit: http://www.active.com/milwaukee-wi/triathlon/races/usa-triathlon-ag...

You bet I'm signing up.

Guess I better quick making excuses.

Happy Day!

Steve


Congratulations Steve!


2014-12-12 4:03 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Originally posted by EchoLkScott

Originally posted by lutzman

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

 . . .

But the challenge for me is as I really can't add much intensity in weeks where I'm adding volume. Combining those two seem to be the the trigger for stress induced injury. So, I've got to use a system like yours, but then build in weeks where the volume is constant but the intensity ramps up through track workouts or sprints on the bike. The trick is it's very tough to develop an objective measurement for "intensity"....especially when trying to figure the cumulative impact of intensity over time, say 7 weeks into a 12 week program when fatigue is becoming a factor.

Nice post.

Steve



Thanks Scott & Steve. Great information!

On the build weeks, do you build volume (or intensity) for all three sports simultaneously? Or, do you focus on one or two sports at a time while holding the volume (or intensity) of the others steady?

I ask this because of my recent experience. I joined a masters swim team which lead to a big jump in both volume and intensity of my swim. For the first month or so I was struggling just to maintain the volume of my run when I really should have been growing it. For the last week and a half I've been on vacation in Hawaii (less swim volume) and the miles and minutes just seem to flow by on the run. All of the BT plans seem to grow all sports at the same gradual rate but, is there any benefit to surging forward in one sport and then the next? Just curious.

Thanks!
Scott I.
Hey Scott:

I can't speak for swimming, but for running, I had always felt that I needed a very strong base before getting into intense workouts. I think that's probably because the "intense" track sessions really were intense, with a strong chance of injury. So, I would usually want to have a solid 8 weeks of planned training (on top of a base period of 6-8 weeks) under my belt before I then begin to stop increasing the volume and began pretty intense sessions building in speed.

At least that's how I was doing it which is probably wrong.

I've revised my thinking now to build in small amounts of intensity on a weekly basis. The key is to keep the increments of intensity relatively small but to always have some build to try to enhance speed on a weekly basis, focusing on small but steady improvement over a longer period of time. That was really the approach recommended in the book Run Less Run Faster, which worked remarkably well in getting me to a 3:12 marathon in Chicago a few year back (age 55) on a very, very hot day. I was targeting 3:10 which was easily within reach but I just got gassed by the heat.

I guess the point is, the authors of that system (runners turned triathletes) recommend a slow build over time comprised of weekly volume goals which are then divided between one long, easy-pace endurance run, one race pace run but obviously not at race distance, and one speed workout with intensities slowly building over time to condition the aerobic system to clearing lactic acid at faster paces.

As Scott correctly wrote, in the end, it remains an individual balancing act as no two runner are the same and gray guys certainly can't recover like 20-somethings.

It's similar on the bike. I'm starting to do longer modest work out steady rides on the weekends when I can get in 90-120 minutes of riding. Mid-week I'm hitting interval work, spin sprints and race pace tempo work...usually in one hour increments 2-3X per week.

Steve
2014-12-13 7:03 AM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
The MRI came back, no more running until I see the dr again on Jan 7. I have a stress fracture. I get to wear the very attractive boot during the day...lol and to match it I get to wear the PF boot on the other foot at night...lol of course I asked, since it has been 6 weeks and I thought the pain was getting less if it would be OK not to wear the boot. They said If I did that they would probably see me soon to put a pin in. The MRI is still showing the fracture so it is not well yet

I do remember it stinging really bad, I'm guessing that is when it happened?? My wife asked if I ran the marathon on a broken foot, she said I was a badA$$. Well, Aleve works wonders, if you take enough.

I do have permission to spin on the bike, nothing hard. My weakness is the high rpm's so I can work on that and I can swim if I can find a place.

Ya'll train hard and safe.

karl
2014-12-13 7:56 AM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Originally posted by KWDreamun

The MRI came back, no more running until I see the dr again on Jan 7. I have a stress fracture. I get to wear the very attractive boot during the day...lol and to match it I get to wear the PF boot on the other foot at night...lol of course I asked, since it has been 6 weeks and I thought the pain was getting less if it would be OK not to wear the boot. They said If I did that they would probably see me soon to put a pin in. The MRI is still showing the fracture so it is not well yet

I do remember it stinging really bad, I'm guessing that is when it happened?? My wife asked if I ran the marathon on a broken foot, she said I was a badA$$. Well, Aleve works wonders, if you take enough.

I do have permission to spin on the bike, nothing hard. My weakness is the high rpm's so I can work on that and I can swim if I can find a place.

Ya'll train hard and safe.

karl


Bad news, Karl. But smart move getting the MRI. Sorry to hear it though.

At least you can bike and swim, right? If you can at least get in a little work to keep the cardio rolling that will certainly help.

Hang in there. This too shall pass.

Steve
2014-12-13 7:56 AM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion
Sorry to hear that Karl! Injuries suck, but take it easy, do what you can and live to fight another day.
And yea you are a bad A$$, pain is just weakness leaving your body!
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