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2014-12-13 8:56 AM
in reply to: Mountaindan

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Subject: Fascia
Karl - yuck... though better to know it and get healed right. Good call going to the dr.

Here's an interesting article someone posted this morning... all new to me, but makes sense.

http://breakingmuscle.com/mobility-recovery/the-top-5-ways-fascia-m...

Running another half marathon tomorrow. Part of my race to train program... hahaha.

Stu


2014-12-13 9:41 AM
in reply to: juneapple

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Subject: RE: Fascia
Stu, good luck w/ your race. I'm looking forward to reading your race report. Also very interesting article and even the side article were great too. Thanks for sharing!

karl
2014-12-13 11:49 AM
in reply to: juneapple

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Subject: RE: Back at running, finally
Well, it took me 6 months but I linked up with my running partner at 6 a.m. this morning and we did what for several years has been our standard weekend long run along the Columbia River. It was my first long run since mashing into the pavement last June.

We have an 11 mile circle that runs along the river, crosses twice to make the loop and cruises by the confluence of the Wenatchee River...it's a great run that's absolutely beautiful but I've been stalling getting back at it since long runs can be....long. Especially when your fitness level sucks.

It was fine. Slow, but fine. We plugged along at about an 8:45 pace. I'll mark it down in the training log and call it a good day.

Back at it!

Hope your weekend is going well. I'm off to climb on the roof to finish putting up Christmas lights.

Steve
2014-12-14 9:56 AM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: Fascia
Add me to the hobbled grays... here's the abbreviated race report from this morning...

Well, that didn't work out too well. Felt great for about 4 miles, everything right on pace, took it easy the first mile, very comfortable and smooth thereafter - much better than Richmond - then a twinge in my left thigh and then 10 strides later, something was clearly wrong. Stopped and tried to stretch it a bit and tried to push on for another 1/4 mile or so and it was just making it worse, so I DNF'd and walked the 4 miles back. Pulled muscle I guess. Too bad... perfect weather and fast course. Hopefully will bounce back quickly. Pretty disappointed right now... not so much about the race itself, but more b/c I was finally starting to feel motivated about next year and had a bit of a plan that started by maintaining the good running base. 1 day of grrrr allowed and then need to have a positive rally.

Ah well, I guess the last couple of intense days at work followed by a 20 hr drive and then yesterday spending all day with my poor Mom trying to get her 2013 taxes done and winding up with the worst headache I've had in a couple of years... maybe my body was just tight and ready to pop. It will be hard not to do some biking though. Hopefully won't affect that.
2014-12-14 11:31 AM
in reply to: juneapple

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Subject: RE: Fascia
Originally posted by juneapple

Add me to the hobbled grays... here's the abbreviated race report from this morning...

Well, that didn't work out too well. Felt great for about 4 miles, everything right on pace, took it easy the first mile, very comfortable and smooth thereafter - much better than Richmond - then a twinge in my left thigh and then 10 strides later, something was clearly wrong. Stopped and tried to stretch it a bit and tried to push on for another 1/4 mile or so and it was just making it worse, so I DNF'd and walked the 4 miles back. Pulled muscle I guess. Too bad... perfect weather and fast course. Hopefully will bounce back quickly. Pretty disappointed right now... not so much about the race itself, but more b/c I was finally starting to feel motivated about next year and had a bit of a plan that started by maintaining the good running base. 1 day of grrrr allowed and then need to have a positive rally.

Ah well, I guess the last couple of intense days at work followed by a 20 hr drive and then yesterday spending all day with my poor Mom trying to get her 2013 taxes done and winding up with the worst headache I've had in a couple of years... maybe my body was just tight and ready to pop. It will be hard not to do some biking though. Hopefully won't affect that.


Tough break Stu. It sounds like you've figured it out. Stress...a LOT of time in the car. Heck, I'm stiff after a three hour drive let alone 20. your headache seems like a pretty strong signal from your body that it was all taking a toll.

You'll bounce back.

Steve
2014-12-14 4:02 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: Fascia
Ouch to everyone hobbling. I am carrying a lot of extra weight but doing okay.
Joined a nice gym. I am truly a novice compared to everyone in this group but walked 3 miles yesterday and today, did supper body weights, stretched got on a spin bike yesterday and today... I went to the pool for my first time ever! Practiced the breathing, walked lengths and did slow single lengths freestyle. I had a five lap pool all to myself!

I am plugging away. This tri stuff is all new to me.
Daniel



2014-12-14 4:11 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion

Originally posted by lutzman

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

 Thanks Scott & Steve.Great information!

On the build weeks, do you build volume (or intensity) for all three sports simultaneously? Or, do you focus on one or two sports at a time while holding the volume (or intensity) of the others steady?

I ask this because of my recent experience. I joined a masters swim team which lead to a big jump in both volume and intensity of my swim. For the first month or so I was struggling just to maintain the volume of my run when I really should have been growing it. For the last week and a half I've been on vacation in Hawaii (less swim volume) and the miles and minutes just seem to flow by on the run. All of the BT plans seem to grow all sports at the same gradual rate but, is there any benefit to surging forward in one sport and then the next? Just curious.

Thanks! Scott I.

Hey Scott:

I can't speak for swimming, but for running, I had always felt that I needed a very strong base before getting into intense workouts. I think that's probably because the "intense" track sessions really were intense, with a strong chance of injury. So, I would usually want to have a solid 8 weeks of planned training (on top of a base period of 6-8 weeks) under my belt before I then begin to stop increasing the volume and began pretty intense sessions building in speed.

At least that's how I was doing it which is probably wrong.

I've revised my thinking now to build in small amounts of intensity on a weekly basis. The key is to keep the increments of intensity relatively small but to always have some build to try to enhance speed on a weekly basis, focusing on small but steady improvement over a longer period of time. That was really the approach recommended in the book Run Less Run Faster, which worked remarkably well in getting me to a 3:12 marathon in Chicago a few year back (age 55) on a very, very hot day. I was targeting 3:10 which was easily within reach but I just got gassed by the heat.

I guess the point is, the authors of that system (runners turned triathletes) recommend a slow build over time comprised of weekly volume goals which are then divided between one long, easy-pace endurance run, one race pace run but obviously not at race distance, and one speed workout with intensities slowly building over time to condition the aerobic system to clearing lactic acid at faster paces.

As Scott correctly wrote, in the end, it remains an individual balancing act as no two runner are the same and gray guys certainly can't recover like 20-somethings.

It's similar on the bike. I'm starting to do longer modest work out steady rides on the weekends when I can get in 90-120 minutes of riding. Mid-week I'm hitting interval work, spin sprints and race pace tempo work...usually in one hour increments 2-3X per week.

Steve

Scott,

There are a couple things here I would like to comment on.

You said, "I ask this because of my recent experience. I joined a masters swim team which lead to a big jump in both volume and intensity of my swim. For the first month or so I was struggling just to maintain the volume of my run when I really should have been growing it."  The experience you describe in that statement is why we do base training followed by a proper build into peak training.  Let me try and explain by using your swim experience as an example.

The goal of base training is to develop an athlete's aerobic potential to its maximum before adding anaerobic training.  When you jumped in with the Master's team, as you said, you increased both volume and intensity.  The volume increase was likely to much too soon, but the main problem was you went from aerobic training to anaerobic training literally overnight - with no or insufficient aerobic base to support it.

Anaerobic training is a valuable tool, however used incorrectly or introducing it too soon can do more harm than good. Excessive intensity and abrupt changes in training volume can increase the risk of injury. Overtraining also becomes an issue. Overtraining is a slippery slope leading to chronic fatigue and poor exercise performance. Sound familiar?  Obviously low intensity aerobic training can bring the same risks; however on the whole, it puts less stress on the body and promotes recovery. You slowly adapt, preparing for the higher intensity work ahead.

By dramatically increasing both volume and intensity when you joined the masters team, you essentially set yourself up for the classic overtraining scenario.  It took a month to get "caught-up" in the pool, and during that time you effectively sabotaged any cycling and run training, at best you were only maintaining fitness on the bike and the run.  I submit you may have actually lost bike and run fitness over that span of time.  Brought on by a dramatic increase in both volume and intensity in a single sport.  I recall that we had a discussion about this when you joined the masters team and this is why sometimes you have to look at triathlon training from the 35,000 foot perspective to see how everything interacts with everything else.

Now, on to your question of, "Do you build volume (or intensity) for all three sports simultaneously? Or, do you focus on one or two sports at a time while holding the volume (or intensity) of the others steady?

In the perfect world, it would be, "Yes, build all three simultaneously."  In reality, the answer to your question is, "It depends."  I know, not the answer you were looking for.  It depends upon what your race schedule looks like and what your race goals are.  I will use myself to try and explain what I mean.  My "A" race this coming season is Ironman Louisville, October 2015.  Along the way, I have a number of Sprint and Olympic triathlons that I classify as "C" races.  I am not going to make any changes in my training leading up to those races.  Here is where my alterations come in.  I am not a good runner.  I hear people like Steve say I plugged along at 8:45 and I cringe.  If I ran at an 8:45 pace I would likely retire thinking it would never get better.  In an attempt to make the run my friend I am running several stand-alone running events this coming season leading up to the Ironman.  I have a marathon in May that I classify as a "B" race.  My problem is that I don't have until October to be ready for a marathon, I only have until May.  However, I am training for three sports simultaneously and have a "cap" on how much I can build week over week.  So in my case, I am focused on the run while also building the other two.  Week to week, my run volume will increase more than the other two and if need be, my run volume will always build (except recovery weeks) and one of the other may stay the same.  All of that while maintaining the "cap" imposed in the formula I talked about in an earlier post.  A couple of weeks out from the marathon I plan to do some running speed work.  During those weeks my run volume will drop significantly while swim and cycling volume will continue to build.  After the stand-alone marathon leading up to the Ironman, my run volume will fluctuate up and down as will my intensity as I spend more time working to build speed.  That is what I mean by "it depends."  Your race schedule and goals are going to directly impact your training plan.

As to the intensity.  I ALWAYS include some intensity in each and every workout - long run, short swim, long bike, short run, tempo run, long or medium swim, it doesn't matter - I always have some intensity.   Now, don't take intensity to necessarily mean all-out intervals and early in the base or build phase, intensity may not even mean anaerobic - it merely means a bit harder effort.  On a long run I will include some fartleks.  During a swim I will raise the pace of a 25 every other or every third repetition.  On the bike I will do a "bike fartlek" every now and again.  I don't do intervals but I do want to get my legs turning over faster, or my arms moving faster or raise my cycling cadence.  That is EVERY workout.  As I get near the end of the base phase I will introduce actual interval training or in the case of swimming increase pace.  The point is that I don't add significant intensity until I have the aerobic base to support it.  Once I have built that aerobic base, my body is better able to adapt to the small to moderate increases in both volume and intensity.

Now, for raising the intensity of an entire workout.  You should understand the "textbook" version of how training works.  Base phase (6-12 weeks), build phase (12-20 weeks), peak phase (4-8 weeks), taper (1-2 weeks).  During the base phase you are doing primarily endurance work.  Long and slow.  During the build you are long and slow but begin to introduce intensity into sets in the last 4-6 weeks.  The peak phase is all about intensity and speed.  The taper is planned rest for a race.  The idea is that when you are approaching the end of your build phase, you are nearing your maximum volume so the intensity builds would theoretically not interfere with volume builds.  At the start of my build phase my plan might look something like this, 90% endurance work, 10% intensity.  By the end of the build phase those numbers would have changed to something like 75% intensity, 25% endurance.

One final thing to remember about the build phase - you should have some short hard days, and you should have some long easy days.  The mix of your hard and easy days goes towards the volume/intensity build.  A mistake people often make is they go too hard on their easy days, and too easy on their hard days.  They end up training all season in the ‘grey zone’ of zero improvement. They are not training easy enough to get the benefits of aerobic training, but not hard enough to induce significant anaerobic adaptations.  In doing so, they negate the whole point of having long easy days and short hard days.

Hopefully all of that didn't confuse things more and raise more questions than it answered.

2014-12-14 5:24 PM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: I'd Like Your Opinion

Originally posted by KWDreamun

The MRI came back, no more running until I see the dr again on Jan 7. I have a stress fracture. I get to wear the very attractive boot during the day...lol and to match it I get to wear the PF boot on the other foot at night...lol of course I asked, since it has been 6 weeks and I thought the pain was getting less if it would be OK not to wear the boot. They said If I did that they would probably see me soon to put a pin in. The MRI is still showing the fracture so it is not well yet

I do remember it stinging really bad, I'm guessing that is when it happened?? My wife asked if I ran the marathon on a broken foot, she said I was a badA$$. Well, Aleve works wonders, if you take enough.

I do have permission to spin on the bike, nothing hard. My weakness is the high rpm's so I can work on that and I can swim if I can find a place. Ya'll train hard and safe.

karl

Hey Karl,

That sucks.  But it would have sucked a LOT more had you continued to run on it and done more damage.  Glad you went to the doctor.  January 7th isn't that far away.  A few spin classes and a couple laps in the pool and you won't lose too much fitness.  You'll get through this!

2014-12-14 5:46 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: Back at running, finally

Originally posted by lutzman

It was fine. Slow, but fine. We plugged along at about an 8:45 pace. I'll mark it down in the training log and call it a good day.

Steve

Steve, really?  8:45 is slow?  Not in my book my friend.  My goal is 9:00 by October.  I would give my left arm for 8:45.

Showoff!

2014-12-14 5:50 PM
in reply to: juneapple

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Subject: RE: Fascia

Originally posted by juneapple

Add me to the hobbled grays... here's the abbreviated race report from this morning...

Well, that didn't work out too well. Felt great for about 4 miles, everything right on pace, took it easy the first mile, very comfortable and smooth thereafter - much better than Richmond - then a twinge in my left thigh and then 10 strides later, something was clearly wrong. Stopped and tried to stretch it a bit and tried to push on for another 1/4 mile or so and it was just making it worse, so I DNF'd and walked the 4 miles back. Pulled muscle I guess. Too bad... perfect weather and fast course. Hopefully will bounce back quickly. Pretty disappointed right now... not so much about the race itself, but more b/c I was finally starting to feel motivated about next year and had a bit of a plan that started by maintaining the good running base. 1 day of grrrr allowed and then need to have a positive rally.

Ah well, I guess the last couple of intense days at work followed by a 20 hr drive and then yesterday spending all day with my poor Mom trying to get her 2013 taxes done and winding up with the worst headache I've had in a couple of years... maybe my body was just tight and ready to pop. It will be hard not to do some biking though. Hopefully won't affect that.

Stu,

Sorry to hear.  Sounds to me like the watch spring was wound a little to tight and finally snapped.

Sounds like it may not be too serious since you were able to walk back.

You know the drill.  Let it heal, don't come back to quick.  Amazing what a couple days of complete rest can do.

2014-12-14 5:54 PM
in reply to: longrun26

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Subject: RE: Fascia

Originally posted by longrun26

Ouch to everyone hobbling. I am carrying a lot of extra weight but doing okay.

Joined a nice gym. I am truly a novice compared to everyone in this group but walked 3 miles yesterday and today, did supper body weights, stretched got on a spin bike yesterday and today... I went to the pool for my first time ever! Practiced the breathing, walked lengths and did slow single lengths freestyle. I had a five lap pool all to myself!

I am plugging away. This tri stuff is all new to me. Daniel

Daniel,

The longest swim begins with a single stroke!  Great to hear you are in the pool!



2014-12-14 7:43 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Fascia
Hey all,

Steve, great to read that you're back on the run in a big way.

Stu, that's a real bummer about the muscle pull during the race. Know the feeling. Glad to hear that despite the setback, you're getting back into the swing of training.

Karl, speedy recovery my friend. Jan 7th is around the corner.


My "off season" ended a bit early this year, since I'm one week into a 90 day challenge.

During our last monthly planning session, my trainer threw down the gauntlet by offering me 90 days of daily training sessions at no increase in cost. This offer was made to prompt a breakthrough for me in the weight loss department. In return, I committed to weigh, measure and log every bite of food I take, or the deal is off. (I use MFP to track food)

I'm hoping this will be the kick in the pants that I so desperately need, since I've gotten fairly lazy about making good food choices recently. My goal is to drop 18 lbs during the 90 days.

Hope everyone has a great training week.

Dave

2014-12-14 10:11 PM
in reply to: DJP_19

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Subject: A Sad Day

I know this has little to do with Triathlon training but this is a sad day.  The Belmont Plaza Olympic Pool in Long Beach, CA has been closed for a couple years due to age, deterioration and seismic concerns.  They have begun demolishing the facility.  The pool was used for an Olympic Trials, a couple of National Championships, and countless other swim meets of all levels.

On a personal note, I can't begin to recall the millions of meters I swam in that pool.  I won the Moore League 100-yard Breaststroke Championship in that pool way back in high school.  I was on two American record setting relays in that pool.  From age-group swimming, through high-school and then onto National competition, whenever I had a meet there, I always seemed to have multiple PR's.  I was fortunate to have won more hardware at that pool than any other pool anywhere in the world.  There was just something about the place.  It's like a little piece of my swimming career has been suddenly grayed out.

They say they are building a new complex that will be the modern day equal of Belmont Shores.  My hope is that indeed, the legend that is Belmont Shores continues on and provides as much inspiration for the next generation of swimmers as it did for me.

 





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2014-12-15 7:10 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: A Sad Day
Steve, I'm sorry about the pool. I know it is tough, great memories were made there and you had a lot of fun and hard work. I know you will miss it and hopefully you will have as much fun in the new pool!

Stu, how is your thigh today? I sure hope you have a speedy recovery! Take care of it.

Dave, congrats on the 90 day challenge. 18 lbs will be a challenge but very doable. The rewards will be worth it many times over. It sounds like you have an excellent trainer.

Steve, 8:45, that is excellent, especially for the your 1st run in a long time!!!!!

We have a very active running club in town and yesterday we had a question answer session for lower leg issues. On the panel was a physical therapist, the actual orthopedic dr I'm seeing, the running shoe specialist and a running trainer. It lasted 2 hours.

Very quick recap
The running coach said we as Americans want instant gratification. It takes time, lots of time, especially running to get to the long distances and mileage injury free.
Every one agreed that the older we get, the more stretching we need. They are big on massage too but rollers are for every day use. They equated rollers with dental floss. You need to do it every day and go to the dentist every so often for a cleaning. Roll every day and get a massage every so often.
Shoes were a big topic like: The more efficient you become as a runner will change the need of shoes. Shoes that fit in the store, may not fit in an ultra race where your feet swell.
If you are losing toenails from running, try lacing up the very top hole to keep your foot from sliding against the end. Blisters could also be a lacing issue or sock that don't fit tight enough. Lubrication helps too.
Almost everyone will develop PF. Stretch, roll and ice.
When I go see the DR he is going to give me specifics for PF, when I get it, I'll let you know.

Have a GREAT day
karl
2014-12-15 7:19 PM
in reply to: DJP_19

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Subject: It's all about the base, 'bout the base...
This song runs through my head on long runs: It's all about the base ,'bout the base... If you're around teens or preteens, you'll know the tune, although the meaning and spelling are of course different.
Sorry to hear of all the injuries, & happy for Steve's well-earned recovery. Congrats to Daniel for taking the first steps.
I just wrapped up my cross-country season with the USATF Club Nationals. (Report here:
http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...
It was my best x-c race ever, a substantial PR of 34:06 for 6k, and 3rd in my 65-69 AG. I was really inspired not only by the 6 in my AG, but the 7 women 70-75 and the 6 women 75-80. Five of those older women beat me! Now I know I can do this for a long while yet...as long as I can manage and prevent injuries.
All the advice here is good. I also recommend extremely highly strengthrunning.com for injury prevention.
BTW there were so many guys in their 60's and 70's I couldn't count them all. Two men in their 80's. Never a need to give up.
Deb
2014-12-15 8:51 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: A Sad Day
Originally posted by k9car363

I know this has little to do with Triathlon training but this is a sad day.  The Belmont Plaza Olympic Pool in Long Beach, CA has been closed for a couple years due to age, deterioration and seismic concerns.  They have begun demolishing the facility.  The pool was used for an Olympic Trials, a couple of National Championships, and countless other swim meets of all levels.

On a personal note, I can't begin to recall the millions of meters I swam in that pool.  I won the Moore League 100-yard Breaststroke Championship in that pool way back in high school.  I was on two American record setting relays in that pool.  From age-group swimming, through high-school and then onto National competition, whenever I had a meet there, I always seemed to have multiple PR's.  I was fortunate to have won more hardware at that pool than any other pool anywhere in the world.  There was just something about the place.  It's like a little piece of my swimming career has been suddenly grayed out.

They say they are building a new complex that will be the modern day equal of Belmont Shores.  My hope is that indeed, the legend that is Belmont Shores continues on and provides as much inspiration for the next generation of swimmers as it did for me.

 




Sorry to hear it Scott...but judging by the state of the sign in the photo, they either had to do major repair or just start over. Hopefully what emerges from the ashes is a fabulous facility that swimmers of the next generation will be talking about for another 50 years.

But it does suck. I was pissed when they knocked down my elementary school. I didn't have nearly the connection with that place that you did with the aquatic center.

Steve


2014-12-15 8:54 PM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: A Sad Day
Originally posted by KWDreamun


Very quick recap

Shoes were a big topic like: The more efficient you become as a runner will change the need of shoes. Shoes that fit in the store, may not fit in an ultra race where your feet swell.

Have a GREAT day
karl


Sounds right to me Karl. The stronger and more efficient I am in running, the more forward I move in my stride, shifting the impact up the heel to the ball of my foot. I need better cushioned shoes when I'm heel striking, neutral shoes with low clearance for fast running.

Steve
2014-12-17 6:41 AM
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Subject: RE: A Sad Day
Scott, neat story about the Belmont pool. Just because they're replacing buildings that we grew up using, it doesn't mean we're getting old, right? Hopefully, there will be a new, fast pool in its place with many records soon to be broken.

Great race, Deb - congrats - Nationals - impressive!

8:45 Steve - hmmm, that was my target pace for my half marathon... there's a reason you're our fearless leader - glad you're back on track!

Karl - some good insights on the running / training. I don't use that roller enough (like only when I think I need it after the fact)... and wouldn't know a massage if it smacked me in my thigh :-)

Good news for me - thigh seems to be healing up. Glad I stopped when I did - though will readily admit, it was much easier to make the smart call since I had done one last month. I've been lightly biking the last two days with my daughter (some things come first, you know) with no ill effects. I can tell it is still there, but the biking doesn't seem to be causing any problems. I may look into some yoga classes when I get back - need to focus more on stretching and flexibility. That's been getting short shrift this year when time was limited.

Cheers,
Stu

Edited by juneapple 2014-12-17 6:42 AM
2014-12-18 10:38 PM
in reply to: juneapple

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Subject: RE: A New Mentor Page coming
Hi Gang:

The new mentor pages for 2015 are being set up now. Hopefully you'll all stay with us as we make the shift to the new site. Stay tuned and stick with us. As soon as we go live, I'll post here. I'm guessing we'll make the shift in the next week.

Scott and I are looking forward to hosting a great group!

Best,

Steve
2014-12-23 6:54 AM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: A New Mentor Page coming
I hope all the Gray's have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
2014-12-23 9:31 PM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: A New Mentor Page coming
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidaze, and Happy New Year to all the Grays. See you in 2015!!

Stu


2014-12-23 11:16 PM
in reply to: KWDreamun

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Subject: RE: A New Mentor Page coming
Originally posted by KWDreamun

I hope all the Gray's have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!


And you as well Karl!
2014-12-23 11:16 PM
in reply to: juneapple

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Subject: RE: A New Mentor Page coming
Originally posted by juneapple

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidaze, and Happy New Year to all the Grays. See you in 2015!!

Stu


Merry Christmas to you as well Stu!
2014-12-24 9:58 AM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: A New Mentor Page coming

Merry Christmas everyone!  Hoping you all have a happy 2015.

2014-12-24 7:43 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: Happy Holidays!!

Happy Holidays to all you gray guys and gals!!  Enjoy the time with your families and take a little time out every now and then to log a kilometer or two running, cycling or swimming.

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