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Race wheels advantage (Page 2)
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 2014-07-21 3:08 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion  9407    Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia |  Subject: RE: Race wheels advantageOriginally posted by Left Brain So, would you not agree that someone who is well trained will get more benefit (speedwise) in aero equipment than someone who is not? (unless that's what you were already saying and I didn't follow well). How about if we take someone with no cycling training and put them on a bike with no aero upgrades, then give them a bike with all the goodies......same improvement in s/km? The power to overcome aerodrag in calm air is given as: P = 1/2 * air density * CdA * v^3 So the slower rider will see a smaller reduction in power due to improved CdA since their speed term is smaller and the faster cyclist sees the opposite. The net result is that the slower rider will save more absolute time since they're on the course longer while the faster rider will save a greater percentage of time. Aero wheels are certainly not the first thing I would recommend when trying to go faster but they are going to help pretty much everyone go faster. Shane |
| 2014-07-21 3:21 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Pro 15655  | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain So, would you not agree that someone who is well trained will get more benefit (speedwise) in aero equipment than someone who is not? (unless that's what you were already saying and I didn't follow well). How about if we take someone with no cycling training and put them on a bike with no aero upgrades, then give them a bike with all the goodies......same improvement in s/km? The power to overcome aerodrag in calm air is given as: P = 1/2 * air density * CdA * v^3 So the slower rider will see a smaller reduction in power due to improved CdA since their speed term is smaller and the faster cyclist sees the opposite. The net result is that the slower rider will save more absolute time since they're on the course longer while the faster rider will save a greater percentage of time. Aero wheels are certainly not the first thing I would recommend when trying to go faster but they are going to help pretty much everyone go faster. Shane Part of the reason I asked is because I dumped aero wheels on my 14 year old's bike and she was slower.......noticibly slower, on the same 9 mile TT race. Went back to her lighter, low profile wheels, and her speed came back up. The wind was no variable to speak of and the course is dead flat. Her words, "I hate pushing those wheels". She avg. 18.5 mph with the low profile and under 17 with the heavier aero wheels. Her FTP is somewhere around 115. |
| 2014-07-21 3:22 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I think most people are better off with the lightest wheels they can find on a course like that.....but that's probably old school learning at this point. I see quite a few folks, though, who can spin up lighter wheels a lot easier and better than they can deep aero wheels. Again.....you guys probably have the "studies" to prove otherwise, I just know what I see....and I doubt deep aero wheels are the best choice for every course. On 99.9% of draft illegal triathlon courses, aero trumps weight. The right aero is the one that allows you to not get blown around How much spinning up of wheels is there is draft illegal triathlons ? No need for studies, we have physics for this one. BTW, for what Jr does, the Zipp 404 FC you bought are the best choice. But like many things, what is applicable to draft legal is different than 99.99% of people on this board. Not for long!!! And yeah, I knew what I was buying him (it wasn't speed, that's pretty static in those packs).....but they also avg. over 25 mph with more 90's and 180's then most people ride in 3 races. His observation of his wheels last weekend (first time riding them) was that he felt more stable in the 90's with them. He also said the power transfer in the jumps coming out of the turns felt better. Overall he felt like he worked a little less on the bike for the same speed he usually rides....that's why I bought them....it helps his run. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-21 3:28 PM |
| 2014-07-21 3:25 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I think most people are better off with the lightest wheels they can find on a course like that.....but that's probably old school learning at this point. I see quite a few folks, though, who can spin up lighter wheels a lot easier and better than they can deep aero wheels. Again.....you guys probably have the "studies" to prove otherwise, I just know what I see....and I doubt deep aero wheels are the best choice for every course. On 99.9% of draft illegal triathlon courses, aero trumps weight. The right aero is the one that allows you to not get blown around How much spinning up of wheels is there is draft illegal triathlons ? No need for studies, we have physics for this one. BTW, for what Jr does, the Zipp 404 FC you bought are the best choice. But like many things, what is applicable to draft legal is different than 99.99% of people on this board. Not for long!!! true, it will soon change to 98% :-) Edited by marcag 2014-07-21 3:26 PM |
| 2014-07-21 3:27 PM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain true, it will soon change to 98% :-) Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I think most people are better off with the lightest wheels they can find on a course like that.....but that's probably old school learning at this point. I see quite a few folks, though, who can spin up lighter wheels a lot easier and better than they can deep aero wheels. Again.....you guys probably have the "studies" to prove otherwise, I just know what I see....and I doubt deep aero wheels are the best choice for every course. On 99.9% of draft illegal triathlon courses, aero trumps weight. The right aero is the one that allows you to not get blown around How much spinning up of wheels is there is draft illegal triathlons ? No need for studies, we have physics for this one. BTW, for what Jr does, the Zipp 404 FC you bought are the best choice. But like many things, what is applicable to draft legal is different than 99.99% of people on this board. Not for long!!! You have no way to know that....... triathlon will change....no matter what the dinosaurs think. Every sport does. |
| 2014-07-21 3:35 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain So, would you not agree that someone who is well trained will get more benefit (speedwise) in aero equipment than someone who is not? (unless that's what you were already saying and I didn't follow well). How about if we take someone with no cycling training and put them on a bike with no aero upgrades, then give them a bike with all the goodies......same improvement in s/km? The power to overcome aerodrag in calm air is given as: P = 1/2 * air density * CdA * v^3 So the slower rider will see a smaller reduction in power due to improved CdA since their speed term is smaller and the faster cyclist sees the opposite. The net result is that the slower rider will save more absolute time since they're on the course longer while the faster rider will save a greater percentage of time. Aero wheels are certainly not the first thing I would recommend when trying to go faster but they are going to help pretty much everyone go faster. Shane Part of the reason I asked is because I dumped aero wheels on my 14 year old's bike and she was slower.......noticibly slower, on the same 9 mile TT race. Went back to her lighter, low profile wheels, and her speed came back up. The wind was no variable to speak of and the course is dead flat. Her words, "I hate pushing those wheels". She avg. 18.5 mph with the low profile and under 17 with the heavier aero wheels. Her FTP is somewhere around 115. That really just sounds like a bad day out or a mechanical issue (rubbing brakes?). Did she have the same tires/tubes as well? When your FTP is that low, a lot of tiny things can make a big difference. A little bit of wind could have made a difference too. |
| 2014-07-21 3:37 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Probably just needs to practice a bit more - like learning how to push big watts at high speeds downhill or in a pack, getting used to how aero wheels "feel" is an important element, especially for lighter riders with lower power. Shane |
| 2014-07-21 3:37 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Left Brain So, would you not agree that someone who is well trained will get more benefit (speedwise) in aero equipment than someone who is not? (unless that's what you were already saying and I didn't follow well). How about if we take someone with no cycling training and put them on a bike with no aero upgrades, then give them a bike with all the goodies......same improvement in s/km? The power to overcome aerodrag in calm air is given as: P = 1/2 * air density * CdA * v^3 So the slower rider will see a smaller reduction in power due to improved CdA since their speed term is smaller and the faster cyclist sees the opposite. The net result is that the slower rider will save more absolute time since they're on the course longer while the faster rider will save a greater percentage of time. Aero wheels are certainly not the first thing I would recommend when trying to go faster but they are going to help pretty much everyone go faster. Shane Part of the reason I asked is because I dumped aero wheels on my 14 year old's bike and she was slower.......noticibly slower, on the same 9 mile TT race. Went back to her lighter, low profile wheels, and her speed came back up. The wind was no variable to speak of and the course is dead flat. Her words, "I hate pushing those wheels". She avg. 18.5 mph with the low profile and under 17 with the heavier aero wheels. Her FTP is somewhere around 115. That really just sounds like a bad day out or a mechanical issue (rubbing brakes?). Did she have the same tires/tubes as well? When your FTP is that low, a lot of tiny things can make a big difference. A little bit of wind could have made a difference too. I don't know.....she rode the same course 5 times (it's a yearlong series)....the two times with the aero wheels she was slower than her standard profile wheels. It was maddening. |
| 2014-07-21 3:39 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by gsmacleod Probably just needs to practice a bit more - like learning how to push big watts at high speeds downhill or in a pack, getting used to how aero wheels "feel" is an important element, especially for lighter riders with lower power. Shane I'll show her this. I can't get her to even consider aero wheels now (she's a year older and a bit stronger)....and yeah, I can see how the "feel" could be an issue. |
| 2014-07-21 3:44 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Left Brain I don't know.....she rode the same course 5 times (it's a yearlong series)....the two times with the aero wheels she was slower than her standard profile wheels. It was maddening. wait a second.....you bought your 14 year old aero wheels ? but seriously...same tires ? btw deeper rim does not mean faster. My friend got super crappy 50mm wheels with his giant. Certainly slower than a zipp 101. Edited by marcag 2014-07-21 3:46 PM |
| 2014-07-21 3:48 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I don't know.....she rode the same course 5 times (it's a yearlong series)....the two times with the aero wheels she was slower than her standard profile wheels. wait a second.....you bought your 14 year old aero wheels ? but seriously...same tires ? btw deeper rim does not mean faster. My friend got super crappy 50mm wheels with his giant. Certainly slower than a zipp 101. It was maddening. LOL - I bought her a carbon bike.....I feel stupid enough when I think about what I rode as a kid. No wheels for her yet. You know.....I'm not sure about the tires, but I'm thinking we were all running Race 3's at the time. ETA - I can't believe the wheels that Giant sells with their Propels, etc......crappy doesn't quite cut it. Lots of kids turned away this year on the Youth/Jr. circuit with really nice Giant bikes and those chit wheels. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-21 3:54 PM |
| 2014-07-21 4:01 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I don't know.....she rode the same course 5 times (it's a yearlong series)....the two times with the aero wheels she was slower than her standard profile wheels. wait a second.....you bought your 14 year old aero wheels ? but seriously...same tires ? btw deeper rim does not mean faster. My friend got super crappy 50mm wheels with his giant. Certainly slower than a zipp 101. It was maddening. LOL - I bought her a carbon bike.....I feel stupid enough when I think about what I rode as a kid. No wheels for her yet. You know.....I'm not sure about the tires, but I'm thinking we were all running Race 3's at the time. ETA - I can't believe the wheels that Giant sells with their Propels, etc......crappy doesn't quite cut it. Lots of kids turned away this year on the Youth/Jr. circuit with really nice Giant bikes and those chit wheels. I am sure you read her the "work on the engine before getting a carbon bike" act :-) I also assume you bought her a computrainer |
| 2014-07-21 4:04 PM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I am sure you read her the "work on the engine before getting a carbon bike" act :-) I also assume you bought her a computrainer Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I don't know.....she rode the same course 5 times (it's a yearlong series)....the two times with the aero wheels she was slower than her standard profile wheels. wait a second.....you bought your 14 year old aero wheels ? but seriously...same tires ? btw deeper rim does not mean faster. My friend got super crappy 50mm wheels with his giant. Certainly slower than a zipp 101. It was maddening. LOL - I bought her a carbon bike.....I feel stupid enough when I think about what I rode as a kid. No wheels for her yet. You know.....I'm not sure about the tires, but I'm thinking we were all running Race 3's at the time. ETA - I can't believe the wheels that Giant sells with their Propels, etc......crappy doesn't quite cut it. Lots of kids turned away this year on the Youth/Jr. circuit with really nice Giant bikes and those chit wheels. Nah - we've got a Pedal Hard facility here.....I leave the training sessions to those guys. I didn't want to buy her a carbon bike....I just wanted freaking peace in my damn house!!! You know, "he gets it so why can't I have it". The money was a small price to pay for silence. Can we change the subject? |
| 2014-07-21 4:07 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I am sure you read her the "work on the engine before getting a carbon bike" act :-) I also assume you bought her a computrainer Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I don't know.....she rode the same course 5 times (it's a yearlong series)....the two times with the aero wheels she was slower than her standard profile wheels. wait a second.....you bought your 14 year old aero wheels ? but seriously...same tires ? btw deeper rim does not mean faster. My friend got super crappy 50mm wheels with his giant. Certainly slower than a zipp 101. It was maddening. LOL - I bought her a carbon bike.....I feel stupid enough when I think about what I rode as a kid. No wheels for her yet. You know.....I'm not sure about the tires, but I'm thinking we were all running Race 3's at the time. ETA - I can't believe the wheels that Giant sells with their Propels, etc......crappy doesn't quite cut it. Lots of kids turned away this year on the Youth/Jr. circuit with really nice Giant bikes and those chit wheels. Nah - we've got a Pedal Hard facility here.....I leave the training sessions to those guys. I didn't want to buy her a carbon bike....I just wanted freaking peace in my damn house!!! You know, "he gets it so why can't I have it". The money was a small price to pay for silence. Can we change the subject? Tell her what you tell us. No carbon bike until you do 3000m kick sets. We should have ended the thread on dmiller's call Edited by marcag 2014-07-21 4:08 PM |
| 2014-07-21 4:12 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Left Brain ETA - I can't believe the wheels that Giant sells with their Propels, etc......crappy doesn't quite cut it. Lots of kids turned away this year on the Youth/Jr. circuit with really nice Giant bikes and those chit wheels. This has always been an issue with tweener wheels - terrible training wheels since low spoke count, high spoke tension machine built wheels will often start breaking spokes after relatively few miles. Not good racing wheels as they aren't very aero (just look flashy with deeper rims and low spoke counts) and for those who are actually racing events that require approved wheels, these wheels are typically not approved. While I have a set of these (Xero something or others) my preferred training wheels are my Mavic Open Pro 32s - awesome training wheel. Shane |
| 2014-07-21 4:54 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 270 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Left Brain If you can't consistently avg. at least 20 mph I wouldn't bother (yes, I kinwo that's not the greatest measure but it means something to people without a lot of experience).....the advantage vs. cost is way out of wack....there are plenty of cheaper/better ways to make your and your bike more aero/efficient. I'm with Left Brain on this. The aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the velocity so it become far less important at lower speeds. All else being equal, the aerodynamic drag at 18.4 mph will be nearly 20% less than at 20 mph. Other factors (rolling resistance for example) don't exhibit this quadratic dependence on velocity. Scott I. |
| 2014-07-21 5:02 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain Tell her what you tell us. No carbon bike until you do 3000m kick sets. We should have ended the thread on dmiller's call Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I am sure you read her the "work on the engine before getting a carbon bike" act :-) I also assume you bought her a computrainer Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I don't know.....she rode the same course 5 times (it's a yearlong series)....the two times with the aero wheels she was slower than her standard profile wheels. wait a second.....you bought your 14 year old aero wheels ? but seriously...same tires ? btw deeper rim does not mean faster. My friend got super crappy 50mm wheels with his giant. Certainly slower than a zipp 101. It was maddening. LOL - I bought her a carbon bike.....I feel stupid enough when I think about what I rode as a kid. No wheels for her yet. You know.....I'm not sure about the tires, but I'm thinking we were all running Race 3's at the time. ETA - I can't believe the wheels that Giant sells with their Propels, etc......crappy doesn't quite cut it. Lots of kids turned away this year on the Youth/Jr. circuit with really nice Giant bikes and those chit wheels. Nah - we've got a Pedal Hard facility here.....I leave the training sessions to those guys. I didn't want to buy her a carbon bike....I just wanted freaking peace in my damn house!!! You know, "he gets it so why can't I have it". The money was a small price to pay for silence. Can we change the subject? Bro I was trying to be reasonable making her wait until she was 14.....if I had to buy her a carbon bike when she did her first 3000 kick set she would have been 12. LOL It's SWIM club.......not triathlon training. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-21 5:03 PM |
| 2014-07-21 5:05 PM in reply to: EchoLkScott |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by EchoLkScott Originally posted by Left Brain I'm with Left Brain on this. The aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the velocity so it become far less important at lower speeds. All else being equal, the aerodynamic drag at 18.4 mph will be nearly 20% less than at 20 mph. Other factors (rolling resistance for example) don't exhibit this quadratic dependence on velocity. Scott I. If you can't consistently avg. at least 20 mph I wouldn't bother (yes, I kinwo that's not the greatest measure but it means something to people without a lot of experience).....the advantage vs. cost is way out of wack....there are plenty of cheaper/better ways to make your and your bike more aero/efficient. You're hired!!! |
| 2014-07-21 5:07 PM in reply to: EchoLkScott |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by EchoLkScott I'm with Left Brain on this. The aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the velocity so it become far less important at lower speeds. All else being equal, the aerodynamic drag at 18.4 mph will be nearly 20% less than at 20 mph. Other factors (rolling resistance for example) don't exhibit this quadratic dependence on velocity. Scott I. If you run the numbers, you will see that aerodynamic improvements will still make a significant difference below 20mph. Shane |
 2014-07-21 5:21 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2014-07-21 5:22 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by EchoLkScott I'm with Left Brain on this. The aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the velocity so it become far less important at lower speeds. All else being equal, the aerodynamic drag at 18.4 mph will be nearly 20% less than at 20 mph. Other factors (rolling resistance for example) don't exhibit this quadratic dependence on velocity. Scott I. If you run the numbers, you will see that aerodynamic improvements will still make a significant difference below 20mph. Shane Yes, that and the fact the slower riders are on the course longer, so while the improvements are not as great as a % for slower riders, the absolute number of minutes saved is actually larger. You're fired!!! |
| 2014-07-21 5:22 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2014-07-21 5:33 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by Left Brain
You're hired!!! Actually, this sums up the internet for most, doesn't it? Find the opinion that you agree with and go for that one. Makes life easier, even if it involves tossing out any thoughts of science or objectivity. But those are so over-rated... Be honest, you're just mad cause you got fired. LOL |
| 2014-07-21 6:42 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by Left Brain
You're hired!!! Actually, this sums up the internet for most, doesn't it? Find the opinion that you agree with and go for that one. Makes life easier, even if it involves tossing out any thoughts of science or objectivity. But those are so over-rated... Be honest, you're just mad cause you got fired. LOL Is he French? |
| 2014-07-21 7:20 PM in reply to: Fred D |
| Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Race wheels advantage Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by EchoLkScott I'm with Left Brain on this. The aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the velocity so it become far less important at lower speeds. All else being equal, the aerodynamic drag at 18.4 mph will be nearly 20% less than at 20 mph. Other factors (rolling resistance for example) don't exhibit this quadratic dependence on velocity. Scott I. If you run the numbers, you will see that aerodynamic improvements will still make a significant difference below 20mph. Shane Yes, that and the fact the slower riders are on the course longer, so while the improvements are not as great as a % for slower riders, the absolute number of minutes saved is actually larger. I know that gets said a lot, but isn't that the equivalent of saying that slower athletes are really just getting their money's worth for the race fee? |
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