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2014-08-10 6:38 PM

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Subject: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
Perhaps the COJ law and/or racing experts can chime in and educamate folks like me who know nothing about the law or racing:

http://deadspin.com/reports-tony-stewart-ran-over-opposing-driver-d...

Race car driver Tony Stewart literally killed a 20-year old driver who got out of his vehicle after Stewart wrecked him on a dirt track in upstate NY.
Tragic stuff.



2014-08-10 8:46 PM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
I dunno. I see a tragic, but avoidable death. Getting out of the car and walking into oncoming traffic on a sprint car track is why this guy died. I see a complete breakdown of self-control and judgement on the part of the young man who died, not an inexcusable or intentional act by Stewart. Of course viewed from another angle, it might look intentional. I've only seen the one video. I'm sure other video will show up in the coming days.
2014-08-10 9:11 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

I don't know anything about sprint car racing, but what I've read on the 'net, and it's just what I read, is that some people think that Stewart gunned the engine to teach this guy a lesson, but when you do that in those cars you tends to swing the rear out, which looks like what hit him.  Certainly merits some investigation as that could easily be seen as reckless



Edited by ChrisM 2014-08-10 9:12 PM
2014-08-11 6:54 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
Originally posted by ChrisM

I don't know anything about sprint car racing, but what I've read on the 'net, and it's just what I read, is that some people think that Stewart gunned the engine to teach this guy a lesson, but when you do that in those cars you tends to swing the rear out, which looks like what hit him.  Certainly merits some investigation as that could easily be seen as reckless




That was my first thought. It seems to me the most likely case is that of course the guy who got out of his car gesturing was reeeeeally stupid, BUT, it's not like that type of behavior is unheard of in the racing world after a wreck. In fact, hasn't Stewart himself done hot-headed stuff like throw his helmet at another car or get into a physical confrontation with other drivers? I thought I remembered seeing that on SportsCenter.
To me, he likely wanted to put a little scare into the kid, and it went horribly wrong. Seems to me that's the type of thing that gets "regular joes" prison time.
2014-08-11 8:39 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
Wow that is crazy. They guy who got hit should have stayed in his car to be safe until race officials could help him get his car off the track but I couldn't tell if Tony Steward gunned the engine and did it intentional from that angle. Knowing Tony Stewarts reputation for a fast temper will the DA file charges against him.
2014-08-11 8:42 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

As much as I like Tony Stewart as a racer, I really expect him to be charged with something for this. One every report I have heard says that he gunned it while the guy was approaching him and as an experienced driver like Stewart, I would think he would know better. I have also followed NASCAR long enough to think that Stewart most likely did not like a 20 yr old rookie calling him out on the track and did gun it to show him who was the veteran on the track.

Either way it is tragic and hopefully there will be some strict rules about drivers confronting drivers at tracks and leaving their cars, but I hate to admit, that is one of the draws of NASCAR, it's when the tempers flare that excites the crowds!



2014-08-11 9:44 AM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
I would have to have a lot more information, but it could be negligent homicide, if he took an unjustified risk or engaged in conduct that grossly deviated from the ordinary care under the circumstances. Depending on the State (I didn't look), they might call negligent homicide--involuntary manslaughter. Certainly the deceased driver's conduct is relevant, but it is the last act of Stewart (if he reacted and swerved toward him or gun his engine, etc) that will be telling. Stewart is a hot head to say the least and that might come back to bite him in the butt. If he walks away from this without any criminal charges, then he needs to take a long look at himself in the mirror and consider his behavior going forward.

Very sad that a mother and father will have to bury their son. I have had to do that and it is the worst thing you can ever endure.
2014-08-11 2:23 PM
in reply to: topolina

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

There will be no criminal charges.

2014-08-11 5:55 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

 

Going to be very hard to prove intent or to prove the "revving the engine" theory.  

Terrible circumstances for sure, but pretty dang dumb to be running around outside your vehicle on an active race course. 

2014-08-11 6:52 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Going to be very hard to prove intent or to prove the "revving the engine" theory.  

Terrible circumstances for sure, but pretty dang dumb to be running around outside your vehicle on an active race course. 

Yeah, I doubt they'd ever recommend charges or a DA would take it.  Guy not only running around a poorly lit dirt track dressed in black, at night, with cars with limited visibility, but he practically ran at Stewart's car

2014-08-11 9:00 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Going to be very hard to prove intent or to prove the "revving the engine" theory.  

Terrible circumstances for sure, but pretty dang dumb to be running around outside your vehicle on an active race course. 

Yeah, I doubt they'd ever recommend charges or a DA would take it.  Guy not only running around a poorly lit dirt track dressed in black, at night, with cars with limited visibility, but he practically ran at Stewart's car

x3

What I saw was Ward putting himself in danger to the point where the car previous to Stewart almost hit him had Ward not stepped back.  If Ward was struck and killed by the driver of the previous car, would we be having this discussion?



2014-08-11 9:16 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Going to be very hard to prove intent or to prove the "revving the engine" theory.  

Terrible circumstances for sure, but pretty dang dumb to be running around outside your vehicle on an active race course. 

Yeah, I doubt they'd ever recommend charges or a DA would take it.  Guy not only running around a poorly lit dirt track dressed in black, at night, with cars with limited visibility, but he practically ran at Stewart's car

x3

What I saw was Ward putting himself in danger to the point where the car previous to Stewart almost hit him had Ward not stepped back.  If Ward was struck and killed by the driver of the previous car, would we be having this discussion?

Yeah, this is not what manslaughter looks like, but it IS what stupid looks like.

2014-08-12 5:56 AM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Going to be very hard to prove intent or to prove the "revving the engine" theory.  

Terrible circumstances for sure, but pretty dang dumb to be running around outside your vehicle on an active race course. 




Just to be clear, there is no criminal "intent" necessary with negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter, but I agree that there probably won't be any criminal charges here.
2014-08-12 8:00 AM
in reply to: #5037807

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
topolina - not entirely accurate. Depends on the charge, right? This happened in NY? I didn't check but I know the track was close to Watkins Glenn. In NY for 1st degree manslaughter you need to prove intent to cause serious injury or intent to kill + extreme emotional disturbance. For lesser charges you wouldn't.

This comment is limited to the nitpicky legal point above, and expresses no opinion on the judgment or intent of the departed or others involved, the liklihood of charges being filed, or the entertainment value of watching cars turn left for several hours.
2014-08-12 8:07 AM
in reply to: topolina

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
There is a lot of other things that play a part here. If you have ever been in one of these cars the visibility on the right side is very limited, plus the track was not very well lit and to turn these car you gun the engine to help turn them but kicking the back end out. On top of the young man was wearing all black making him hard to see at night to begin with. We also do not know how much dirt and mud was blocking Stewart's view that gets all over these cars as they are racing. It is very tragic indeed and I am not a Stewart fan but I do not believe he did anything intentional. The young man should not have gotten out of the car and onto the middle of the track.
2014-08-12 12:59 PM
in reply to: navbtcret

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

We all "know" (and we REALLY don't), is that he probably tried to spit rocks at him or do some other move of intimidation (like spraying water on people on the dock if water skiing or spray someone with snow if snow skiing) and it went REALLY bad...   But short of a confession, there is no evidence of it.  The EVIDENCE shows some kid acting irrationally and running onto a active race track in dark clothing... 

He is going to have to live with himself for killing a kid...  BUT, people his type (and I guess I don't know his "type" but only his sketchy history of hot headed behavior) is that he will convince himself that he didn't do anything wrong and it was ALL the kids fault.

 



2014-08-13 10:18 AM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by Kido

We all "know" (and we REALLY don't), is that he probably tried to spit rocks at him or do some other move of intimidation (like spraying water on people on the dock if water skiing or spray someone with snow if snow skiing) and it went REALLY bad...   But short of a confession, there is no evidence of it.  The EVIDENCE shows some kid acting irrationally and running onto a active race track in dark clothing... 

He is going to have to live with himself for killing a kid...  BUT, people his type (and I guess I don't know his "type" but only his sketchy history of hot headed behavior) is that he will convince himself that he didn't do anything wrong and it was ALL the kids fault.

 

 

I was thinking along the same lines at first, tried to buzz him and got too close. But after some reading about how these cars are set up, I am not so sure he had any ill intent at all.

Apparently these cars don't have transmissions, it is either in gear or out of gear (which is why they have to be push started). Also the right rear tire is much wider than the rear left tire to help it turn to the left. Also the brakes are screwy, there is only one front brake, on the front left tire, then the rear axle has equal brakes.

So there is a lot of steering of the car done with the gas and brake pedal. I am no expert, but it seems to me that given the set up of these cars they are really only designed to turn left. Hitting the gas kicks the rear toward the right and makes the car drift, hitting the brakes would also make the car turn left kicking the back end to the right as the front brakes are uneven. 

So if you don't see the idiot running around the race track until the last second, you either chose to brake or hit the gas to attempt to go left and avoid him, both options kick the back end toward the right and the right rear tire clips the guy. 

Another few things I read about the cars is that they are designed to be run full out and they make close to or over 1,000hp. So when they are under caution and have to slow down the car becomes very difficult to handle, described as an unruly pig in the dirt. Also this race allowed for a wing on top of the car as well as on the front of the car which cuts down on visibility on the right side of the car. 

Looks to me like a tragic accident caused by the stupidity of the driver who didn't stay in his wrecked car like he should have. If it was Jeff Gordon that had run the kid over it would likely be viewed as such, but as it was Tony Stewart and he has a rep for being a jerk, there is wide speculation. I don't see the fact that he is a jerk overriding all the facts about the situation, the conditions and the car's handling characteristics. So yeah he will get crucified in the court of public opinion, but I doubt anything else comes from it unless he settles a wrongful death suit just to stop the bad publicity. 

2014-08-13 2:03 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by Aarondb4

Originally posted by Kido

We all "know" (and we REALLY don't), is that he probably tried to spit rocks at him or do some other move of intimidation (like spraying water on people on the dock if water skiing or spray someone with snow if snow skiing) and it went REALLY bad...   But short of a confession, there is no evidence of it.  The EVIDENCE shows some kid acting irrationally and running onto a active race track in dark clothing... 

He is going to have to live with himself for killing a kid...  BUT, people his type (and I guess I don't know his "type" but only his sketchy history of hot headed behavior) is that he will convince himself that he didn't do anything wrong and it was ALL the kids fault.

 

 

I was thinking along the same lines at first, tried to buzz him and got too close. But after some reading about how these cars are set up, I am not so sure he had any ill intent at all.

Apparently these cars don't have transmissions, it is either in gear or out of gear (which is why they have to be push started). Also the right rear tire is much wider than the rear left tire to help it turn to the left. Also the brakes are screwy, there is only one front brake, on the front left tire, then the rear axle has equal brakes.

So there is a lot of steering of the car done with the gas and brake pedal. I am no expert, but it seems to me that given the set up of these cars they are really only designed to turn left. Hitting the gas kicks the rear toward the right and makes the car drift, hitting the brakes would also make the car turn left kicking the back end to the right as the front brakes are uneven. 

So if you don't see the idiot running around the race track until the last second, you either chose to brake or hit the gas to attempt to go left and avoid him, both options kick the back end toward the right and the right rear tire clips the guy. 

Another few things I read about the cars is that they are designed to be run full out and they make close to or over 1,000hp. So when they are under caution and have to slow down the car becomes very difficult to handle, described as an unruly pig in the dirt. Also this race allowed for a wing on top of the car as well as on the front of the car which cuts down on visibility on the right side of the car. 

Looks to me like a tragic accident caused by the stupidity of the driver who didn't stay in his wrecked car like he should have. If it was Jeff Gordon that had run the kid over it would likely be viewed as such, but as it was Tony Stewart and he has a rep for being a jerk, there is wide speculation. I don't see the fact that he is a jerk overriding all the facts about the situation, the conditions and the car's handling characteristics. So yeah he will get crucified in the court of public opinion, but I doubt anything else comes from it unless he settles a wrongful death suit just to stop the bad publicity. 

What I saw on the video was a guy getting out of his car, and purposely putting himself in harms way.  I saw absolutely nothing else.  Honestly...what would Stewart have to had done in order for people not to think he had zero intent to hurt, scare, or throw mud at him?  Maybe if Stewart's car have looked similar to the car that was in front of him...you know...the one that didn't hit him...that was going roughly the same speed, on the same line that Stewart was?  The only difference is that Ward stepped out of the way of the car in front.  Also keep in mind that Stewart's view was also being blocked by the car in front of him, as they were coming out of a turn.  I wouldn't have expected Stewart to see Ward coming at him from 300 yards away.  If Stewart said he didn't see Ward until he was within 10 yards of him, I would have no reason not to believe him.

2014-08-13 2:22 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Question:

Do these races have spotters at them and are thet in communication with the drivers like NASCAR?

2014-08-13 3:06 PM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by jford2309

Question:

Do these races have spotters at them and are thet in communication with the drivers like NASCAR?

 

Nope

2014-08-13 3:07 PM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by jford2309

Question:

Do these races have spotters at them and are thet in communication with the drivers like NASCAR?

And if they did...what difference would it make.  Ward put himself in harms way.  From everything I see in the video, all the drivers, including Stewart took an appropriate line to avoid Ward's wrecked car.  It was Ward who was the one deviating from a predictable line (staying in or near his car) and made his way into the middle of traffic.  I fully believe that if Stewart and the car in front of him knew Ward was out on the track, and decided to drive 10 feet farther inside to avoid him, Ward simply would have chased him another 10 feet farther down the track.



2014-08-13 3:21 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by jford2309

Question:

Do these races have spotters at them and are thet in communication with the drivers like NASCAR?

And if they did...what difference would it make.  Ward put himself in harms way.  From everything I see in the video, all the drivers, including Stewart took an appropriate line to avoid Ward's wrecked car.  It was Ward who was the one deviating from a predictable line (staying in or near his car) and made his way into the middle of traffic.  I fully believe that if Stewart and the car in front of him knew Ward was out on the track, and decided to drive 10 feet farther inside to avoid him, Ward simply would have chased him another 10 feet farther down the track.

It COULD have made a lot of difference. If Stewart knew the guy was out of his car and someone had told him, then yeah, it COULD have made a big difference.

I like Tony Stewart as a driver, but I can totally see where Stewart would not like some kid yelling and pointing at him in the race and maybe trying to buzz him. I do not think he would ever purposefully try to hit someone, but I can see based on his past where he let his emotions get the best of him. Whether or not that is ever provable is another case but i can totally see it happeneing.

2014-08-13 6:37 PM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by jford2309

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by jford2309

Question:

Do these races have spotters at them and are thet in communication with the drivers like NASCAR?

And if they did...what difference would it make.  Ward put himself in harms way.  From everything I see in the video, all the drivers, including Stewart took an appropriate line to avoid Ward's wrecked car.  It was Ward who was the one deviating from a predictable line (staying in or near his car) and made his way into the middle of traffic.  I fully believe that if Stewart and the car in front of him knew Ward was out on the track, and decided to drive 10 feet farther inside to avoid him, Ward simply would have chased him another 10 feet farther down the track.

It COULD have made a lot of difference. If Stewart knew the guy was out of his car and someone had told him, then yeah, it COULD have made a big difference.

I like Tony Stewart as a driver, but I can totally see where Stewart would not like some kid yelling and pointing at him in the race and maybe trying to buzz him. I do not think he would ever purposefully try to hit someone, but I can see based on his past where he let his emotions get the best of him. Whether or not that is ever provable is another case but i can totally see it happeneing.

Or you could look at it from the other perspective.

If Ward didn't run down the track towards Stewart's car, do you think that COULD have made a difference?

Can you see how it's possible that Ward let his emotions get the best of him?

 

2014-08-14 5:45 AM
in reply to: braciole

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
Originally posted by braciole

topolina - not entirely accurate. Depends on the charge, right? This happened in NY? I didn't check but I know the track was close to Watkins Glenn. In NY for 1st degree manslaughter you need to prove intent to cause serious injury or intent to kill + extreme emotional disturbance. For lesser charges you wouldn't.

This comment is limited to the nitpicky legal point above, and expresses no opinion on the judgment or intent of the departed or others involved, the liklihood of charges being filed, or the entertainment value of watching cars turn left for several hours.


Not a point I really want to argue about, but 1st degree manslaughter is not what I mentioned. I mentioned involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide--very different charges. But, in any event, he will probably not be charged. Most DA's don't want to take a case unless they know they can get a conviction on. There are some exceptions, but those are rare.
2014-08-14 9:04 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Perhaps the COJ law and/or racing experts can chime in and educamate folks like me who know nothing about the law or racing:

http://deadspin.com/reports-tony-stewart-ran-over-opposing-driver-d...

Race car driver Tony Stewart literally killed a 20-year old driver who got out of his vehicle after Stewart wrecked him on a dirt track in upstate NY.
Tragic stuff.




No but you might want to go looking for "Death by Misadventure"

No charges.

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