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2014-10-03 10:03 AM

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Subject: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
I'm re-posting this from the survey thread so the conversation can be separate:

Talking about training data analysis, the stuff that comes off your garmin, Timex, trainerroad, etc. A lot of you have said it's important. Let's figure out what that means.

I'm admittedly trying to kick the hornet nest here and stir up a genuinely provocative discussion, but what does the analysis it tell you from a training perspective? I'm talking about TSS here (and its predecessors and derivatives, so TRIMPS, GOVSS, etc), so if you're looking at it for cadence/stroke or power/pace consistency, that's a different concept, and let's leave that aside for now, because that's a simple thing to observe and a simple thing to understand. I'll call it TSS for arguments sake, because everyone generally knows the term. Doesn't mean they understand it per se, but they know it.

But talking about TSS, If I look at my TSS for a bike workout, I find I nod my head and say, "aha, that was a big effort", or if I look at cumulative TSS for a week I might say "Gee, that was a light week for TSS", but I don't think that influences my training in a prescriptive way. It does *somewhat* influence my planning, however - meaning I won't plan a 'heavy' day following a 'heavy' day, unless it's followed by a 'light' day or 'recovery' day the next. But the number itself is pretty close to useless.

I'm not saying TSS is completely useless of course - if I've planned two workouts on Friday and another on Saturday for a cumulative load of (arbitrary number alert!) 100+50+75 =225 and the actual results were 101+51+ 40, that maybe tells me I was more tired on Saturday than I expected to be, so let's think about planning differently, but for me that's it. All it does is tell me to back down, and honestly, I don't need a number to tell me that, I can tell half way through Saturday's workout that I've overdone it. The numbers won't tell me if I didn't get enough sleep, have an injury I've been nursing, haven't been eating well, have some personal stress to deal with...etc. It just says WHOAH, maybe you should pull on the reins here. But TSS tells me there is a difference between 200 and 201 TSS. Sorry, I can't even remotely feel that difference.

Catch where I'm going with this? We've been conditioned to look at TSS because that's the number that spits out everywhere, but...does it make a difference to you whether your TSS was 90 or 100? It might make aa difference to you in bigger ranges when comparing say a 60 to 100, but that's just it - I think the number is WAY more granular than is even remotely necessary. I think you can break it down to simply:
Green: go for it, you're totally recovered. Proceed with gusto!
Yellow: you've been working hard there, buddy. You're a stud and you're going to nail it today, but don't whale on yourself. Proceed normally, but be sensitive to your recovery.
Red: You know what, you're a little tired. You might be doing this on purpose and trying to break through to a new level, or you might just be doing too much. You figure it out, but the data gnomes are worried about you.

There's too much weight put on these numbers I think. It somehow makes it cool to look at all of it, this big dashboard of STUFF that makes us feel like a machine, but let's discuss. I'm really starting to think that simple signalling is more valuable that pretending we're all scientists.


2014-10-03 10:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

The TSS number itself is a number that doesn't do a lot for you (most of us know a hard or easy ride when we finish), but if you have a tool that can calculate stress and fatigue, you can see a much bigger picture.  I use the Fitness/Fatigue tool on Strava, and for the most part my body can feel what's going on.  When the tool says my form is down due to fatigue, then I feel fatigued and vice versa, but one thing I noticed was that it can let me know when my stimulus needs to change.  What will happen is after a ride my Fitness (the bold line) wouldn't go up due to the fact that my rides were either not hard enough or not long enough.  After bumping up the distance on my rides, I would get past that plateau. 

I've ran into moments where my bike seemed to stagnate, and yes it's common sense that biking more will make you a more fit cyclist, but is neat for someone to see it actually being demonstrated via their workout data. 

 



Edited by msteiner 2014-10-03 10:20 AM
2014-10-03 10:35 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

TSS isn't supposed to be an all-encompassing data point. All it does is say the physiological cost. In other words, the size of the workout as it factors in both time and intensity. Some of the points seem a bit silly. Noticing a 1 point difference is really trying to look much to close at what is going on. This tool is meant to help look at the overall scene. Look at the forest more than the leaves on the trees. Where it becomes more useful is in managing training loads. Several programs are able to figure out acute and chronic loads from this data. This can help manage your fatigue and workloads over bigger periods of time. So far everything listed has been zoomed in much too close. Even with the 3 workouts to 225 TSS in a week, that's still a smaller scale. This can go out over weeks and months, showing effects on that level.

2014-10-03 10:37 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

"Data" (whatever measurement--power, HR, pace, etc) can be used to help people calibrate their Greem/Yellow/Red system.  But it's not required.  You can go by feel, as well.  Most people tend to learn faster if given some kind of data, though (e.g., they might be able to convince themselevs that their pace is 'conversational' when it's really not, but they can't deny that their HR has gone over x bpm).  That said, you can get too wrapped up in the details of the numbers and forget their value.

It's funny you chose to post this, because I was just poerusing another thread where Stephen Seiler chimed in with this gem:

I also am still of the opinion that 3 zones works quite well for most people: Green zone (talking intensity, starts feeling like you are working after an hour, feel like eating as soon as you are finished, Yellow Zone (threshold, typical zone for those 45-60 minute workouts you hustle to squeeze in after work, pretty tough workout, but you did not have to go near your personal cellar of mental fortitude to finish), Red zone (requires mental mobilization, clear increasing perception of effort with every interval bout, no appetite for about an hour after training). And of course the most common training mistake is that a green zone session becomes yellow because of half wheeling, and the next day's planned red zone session fades to uhhhh....pink. Show me a champion and I will show you a person with intensity discipline who plans the work and works the plan, even on days when someone rides past them that they know they could reel in :-

Basically the same as your scale.  And I agree with him 100%.  However, that doesn't preclude the use of data to help 'calibrate' your G/Y/R and/or to help you figure out how much time you can spend in those zones on an ongoing basis to achieve the adaptations you are looking for (to go further/faster for most of us here).  It's not an either/or proposition.  But many people, regardless of whether they use data analysis or not, have a hard time seeing the 'big picture' and understanding the basics about how to think about planning and altering their training to meet their goals (partly because many goals tend to be short-term, where endurance sports are always about the long-term).

Just my $0.02.  And free for you! 

2014-10-03 11:03 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
Originally posted by msteiner
The TSS number itself is a number that doesn't do a lot for you (most of us know a hard or easy ride when we finish), but if you have a tool that can calculate stress and fatigue, you can see a much bigger picture.  I use the Fitness/Fatigue tool on Strava, and for the most part my body can feel what's going on.  When the tool says my form is down due to fatigue, then I feel fatigued and vice versa, but one thing I noticed was that it can let me know when my stimulus needs to change.  What will happen is after a ride my Fitness (the bold line) wouldn't go up due to the fact that my rides were either not hard enough or not long enough.  After bumping up the distance on my rides, I would get past that plateau. 

I've ran into moments where my bike seemed to stagnate, and yes it's common sense that biking more will make you a more fit cyclist, but is neat for someone to see it actually being demonstrated via their workout data. 



the distance isn't what's requiring the change necessarily - if you were to re-test your baseline, you would likely find your FTP had risen, meaning the same workout produces less TSS than it used to. If you're endlessly pushing your TSS up and up, you're doing something wrong. The scale is supposed to be normalized. A 50 mile ride at 60% is supposed to be roughly the same TSS (I realize it's not linear, but at close terms it's enough so for argument) as a 40 mile ride at 75%.
2014-10-03 11:09 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
Originally posted by brigby1

TSS isn't supposed to be an all-encompassing data point. All it does is say the physiological cost. In other words, the size of the workout as it factors in both time and intensity. Some of the points seem a bit silly. Noticing a 1 point difference is really trying to look much to close at what is going on. This tool is meant to help look at the overall scene. Look at the forest more than the leaves on the trees. Where it becomes more useful is in managing training loads. Several programs are able to figure out acute and chronic loads from this data. This can help manage your fatigue and workloads over bigger periods of time. So far everything listed has been zoomed in much too close. Even with the 3 workouts to 225 TSS in a week, that's still a smaller scale. This can go out over weeks and months, showing effects on that level.




Of course, but think it out. Acute training load is just another estimation - it's based on a 7 day decay. The Chronic load is based on a 42 day decay (which by the way decays to zero over time...um). I'm not saying something to manage your fatigue and workloads aren't important - I'm saying the opposite in fact - what I am saying is seeing a number that says your acute load is 97 and your chronic load is 92 and your TSB/form is therefore 5 doesn't mean anything different in practical terms to a real, breathing athlete than saying, "continue training at this load or higher". I'm asking why we, as triathletes, with our ridiculous reputation for wanting data - actually care about the 97, 92 and 5. You're looking for the same tool as I am, I'm suggesting it's a lot more blunt than you think.


2014-10-03 11:09 AM
in reply to: fisherman76


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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
TSS is very important for managing training load. Like you eluded to, TSS (or other stress derivatives) is just a mathematical formula. I agree with you that very small changes over the SHORT TERM like 201 TSS or 200 TSS for a workout is simply unable to be felt by an athlete.

I think that if you are able to tell the difference in your performance from workout to workout like you say, then you are in a vast minority. I also have a very good sense of RPE, pace, power, etc. but most of the athletes that I am around can't really tell you exactly what their workout was like from day to day. TSS and a coach using a PMC will be able to objectively quantify and keep the athlete on track. The data from an individual workout using TSS is not the important part, or even a week's worth. It is the season, the years or accumulation of data (just like consistent training!) that TSS really shines. If you go back from a previous workout that used to blitz you and now it can be done with relative ease, you can look back on that workout from a previous year, week, month and see your improvements in fitness based on the weeks before it and after it.

To finally answer the thread topic. YES TSS IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE. One workout, no, 10 TSS points? NO. 40-50 workouts with a consistently higher load? ABSOLUTELY.
2014-10-03 11:15 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

I turned 60 last year and have experienced a noticable increase in my recovery needs.  I've adjusted my  periodization ratio from 3:1 to 2:1, but still have been bouncing around on adjusting my intensity, particularly on my recovery weeks.  I've started to track TSS as another data point, but still getting comfortable with it. 

Quite frankly, I used to be more data-driven, but in the last few years have relied more on RPE based on my general training objectives.   

Mark

2014-10-03 11:17 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
Originally posted by JohnnyKay
Basically the same as your scale.  And I agree with him 100%.  However, that doesn't preclude the use of data to help 'calibrate' your G/Y/R and/or to help you figure out how much time you can spend in those zones on an ongoing basis to achieve the adaptations you are looking for (to go further/faster for most of us here).  It's not an either/or proposition.  But many people, regardless of whether they use data analysis or not, have a hard time seeing the 'big picture' and understanding the basics about how to think about planning and altering their training to meet their goals (partly because many goals tend to be short-term, where endurance sports are always about the long-term).

Just my $0.02.  And free for you! 




Precisely, you get where I'm coming from. Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater, let the equations guide the instrumentation, but let's simplify the instrumentation so we can focus on the training and not try to mine data that serves little purpose besides warning us to slow down. I'll also contest that TSS is NOT predictive in our sport because it lacks the integration of cumulative load. If you run a course that produces a TSS of 100 and then bike a course that should produce a TSS of 100, your cumulative actual TSS is definitely not 200. It's obviously higher, as anyone who has done a triathlon will tell you. But you can't see that from TSS alone, because the baselines of each discipline are unique. It's not *completely* unpredictive of course - if you work on your run you'll get better on the run - but if you accept that it's not accurate as a race-predictive device in triathlon it begs the question of why it's relied on as such. TSS tells you in a broad stroke that you're 1) well trained and 2) in good 'form', which *should* equate to a good race, but it doesn't of course. Never trained on hills and you're going to Placid? Good luck. FTP can't help you there.
2014-10-03 11:24 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
Originally posted by msteiner

The TSS number itself is a number that doesn't do a lot for you (most of us know a hard or easy ride when we finish), but if you have a tool that can calculate stress and fatigue, you can see a much bigger picture.  I use the Fitness/Fatigue tool on Strava, and for the most part my body can feel what's going on.  When the tool says my form is down due to fatigue, then I feel fatigued and vice versa, but one thing I noticed was that it can let me know when my stimulus needs to change.  What will happen is after a ride my Fitness (the bold line) wouldn't go up due to the fact that my rides were either not hard enough or not long enough.  After bumping up the distance on my rides, I would get past that plateau. 

I've ran into moments where my bike seemed to stagnate, and yes it's common sense that biking more will make you a more fit cyclist, but is neat for someone to see it actually being demonstrated via their workout data. 

 




Agreed on the TSS, its simply just a measuring point and too many people chase TSS points. I always stress to people that TSS covers about 10-20 hours of your week (training hours). However, there are 168 hours in a week and many people fail to measure the other 85% of their week. This is where HRV could possibly be used as a good tool to measure your body's stress levels and if you are truly adapting to the training loads.

A lot of triathletes thought are Type-A personalities, very analytical and love new gizmos and gadgets. Thus data analysis is big for them. Is it important, yes it can be. But you need to know and understand how and what you are analyzing then just looking to get the biggest numbers possible.

It seems that we have more data then ever, and more data is continually coming into the market. While a lot of benefits do come from this, I think it sometimes takes away from the purity of the sport. Example. if your season is done, now is a great time to toss the gizmos aside and train just to train and tune into your body and RPE, get back on the data as the off-seaon comes into form.
2014-10-03 11:25 AM
in reply to: calebsmidt1

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
Originally posted by calebsmidt1

TSS is very important for managing training load. Like you eluded to, TSS (or other stress derivatives) is just a mathematical formula. I agree with you that very small changes over the SHORT TERM like 201 TSS or 200 TSS for a workout is simply unable to be felt by an athlete.

I think that if you are able to tell the difference in your performance from workout to workout like you say, then you are in a vast minority. I also have a very good sense of RPE, pace, power, etc. but most of the athletes that I am around can't really tell you exactly what their workout was like from day to day. TSS and a coach using a PMC will be able to objectively quantify and keep the athlete on track. The data from an individual workout using TSS is not the important part, or even a week's worth. It is the season, the years or accumulation of data (just like consistent training!) that TSS really shines. If you go back from a previous workout that used to blitz you and now it can be done with relative ease, you can look back on that workout from a previous year, week, month and see your improvements in fitness based on the weeks before it and after it.

To finally answer the thread topic. YES TSS IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE. One workout, no, 10 TSS points? NO. 40-50 workouts with a consistently higher load? ABSOLUTELY.


You're making my point wonderfully. A year's worth of accumulated data smooths the granularity over completely, and you see the curves rather than the jagged edges. The curves represent your peaks changing, not your TSS. Your peaks are your T pace, your FTP level...those are the key metrics, not the daily garbage. When you go back on a large amount of data and see peaks you look at the work\recovery balance leading up to it, you look at the consistent workouts on a duration\% basis (like - hey, I was running 30 miles per week on average but only at 70% of my 5K pace, not hey, I was averaging 70 run TSS for most run workouts...that's stupid), see what I mean? It's absolutely important to collect the data, yes. It's absolutely important to look back on the data and lay your training plan and performances atop it. But when you do that, is TSS giving you anything? I think its only value is as a short term leading indicator, and nothing else.


2014-10-03 11:26 AM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

No. I have a plan and stick to it, so analyzing the data afterward isn't important to me. Maybe analyzing the data afterward would get me further, but I don't care enough I guess. For me, most of the joy is just riding and sticking to my plan gets me far enough.

I do upload my data to strava though because I think the leaderboards are fun and I like looking at the maps. Especially when I ride off road or in a different country.

2014-10-03 11:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

Originally posted by fisherman76
Originally posted by brigby1

TSS isn't supposed to be an all-encompassing data point. All it does is say the physiological cost. In other words, the size of the workout as it factors in both time and intensity. Some of the points seem a bit silly. Noticing a 1 point difference is really trying to look much to close at what is going on. This tool is meant to help look at the overall scene. Look at the forest more than the leaves on the trees. Where it becomes more useful is in managing training loads. Several programs are able to figure out acute and chronic loads from this data. This can help manage your fatigue and workloads over bigger periods of time. So far everything listed has been zoomed in much too close. Even with the 3 workouts to 225 TSS in a week, that's still a smaller scale. This can go out over weeks and months, showing effects on that level.

Of course, but think it out. Acute training load is just another estimation - it's based on a 7 day decay. The Chronic load is based on a 42 day decay (which by the way decays to zero over time...um). I'm not saying something to manage your fatigue and workloads aren't important - I'm saying the opposite in fact - what I am saying is seeing a number that says your acute load is 97 and your chronic load is 92 and your TSB/form is therefore 5 doesn't mean anything different in practical terms to a real, breathing athlete than saying, "continue training at this load or higher". I'm asking why we, as triathletes, with our ridiculous reputation for wanting data - actually care about the 97, 92 and 5. You're looking for the same tool as I am, I'm suggesting it's a lot more blunt than you think.
Perhaps you should just say it then as there are a number of sidetracks and misuses that I seem to be having trouble sorting through.



Edited by brigby1 2014-10-03 11:51 AM
2014-10-03 12:55 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
I like My Data, especially in the early days of training, now not so much so, now I know by feel if a runs going well or if its going to be a struggle, or if my HR is to high on the bike and I need to ease up a bit, do I still collect my data , yea almost every training session I almost feel naked going out without my Garmin LOL, but do I fondle over the data now No not really any more , IF it is a good ride or run I can usually tell within a few seconds or Mph how I was doing I just like to look at it to confirm If I was negative splitting or what else was going on so I can decide if I can maybe work a bit harder or not.
2014-10-03 1:29 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

Originally posted by fisherman76
Originally posted by msteiner The TSS number itself is a number that doesn't do a lot for you (most of us know a hard or easy ride when we finish), but if you have a tool that can calculate stress and fatigue, you can see a much bigger picture.  I use the Fitness/Fatigue tool on Strava, and for the most part my body can feel what's going on.  When the tool says my form is down due to fatigue, then I feel fatigued and vice versa, but one thing I noticed was that it can let me know when my stimulus needs to change.  What will happen is after a ride my Fitness (the bold line) wouldn't go up due to the fact that my rides were either not hard enough or not long enough.  After bumping up the distance on my rides, I would get past that plateau. 

I've ran into moments where my bike seemed to stagnate, and yes it's common sense that biking more will make you a more fit cyclist, but is neat for someone to see it actually being demonstrated via their workout data. 

the distance isn't what's requiring the change necessarily - if you were to re-test your baseline, you would likely find your FTP had risen, meaning the same workout produces less TSS than it used to. If you're endlessly pushing your TSS up and up, you're doing something wrong. The scale is supposed to be normalized. A 50 mile ride at 60% is supposed to be roughly the same TSS (I realize it's not linear, but at close terms it's enough so for argument) as a 40 mile ride at 75%.

Sure, and adjusting my FTP was a part of the process of increasing the intensity of intervals.  As for upping your TSS the fact is hardly any of us are in the "rides too much during the week" category, so adding more miles to your cycling will help just as much as running more or swimming more will help their respective sports.

You talked around my point which was basically brigby's in that TSS is only a piece of the puzzle.

2014-10-03 1:50 PM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
I didn't mean to talk over or around anyone, sorry. Of course I'm trying to steer it to a common lexicon, that's my goal - if we are all speaking the same language and can remove the assumptions, what's left? Intellectual discussion folks.


2014-10-03 2:01 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

Originally posted by fisherman76 I didn't mean to talk over or around anyone, sorry. Of course I'm trying to steer it to a common lexicon, that's my goal - if we are all speaking the same language and can remove the assumptions, what's left? Intellectual discussion folks.

The problem is that there's such a thing as simplifying data too much to where it's not really giving information.  If you don't think the current way tools today model stress and fatigue from TSS, then what would you recommend?

2014-10-03 2:32 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

Originally posted by fisherman76
Originally posted by JohnnyKay Basically the same as your scale.  And I agree with him 100%.  However, that doesn't preclude the use of data to help 'calibrate' your G/Y/R and/or to help you figure out how much time you can spend in those zones on an ongoing basis to achieve the adaptations you are looking for (to go further/faster for most of us here).  It's not an either/or proposition.  But many people, regardless of whether they use data analysis or not, have a hard time seeing the 'big picture' and understanding the basics about how to think about planning and altering their training to meet their goals (partly because many goals tend to be short-term, where endurance sports are always about the long-term).

Just my $0.02.  And free for you! 

Precisely, you get where I'm coming from. Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater, let the equations guide the instrumentation, but let's simplify the instrumentation so we can focus on the training and not try to mine data that serves little purpose besides warning us to slow down. I'll also contest that TSS is NOT predictive in our sport because it lacks the integration of cumulative load. If you run a course that produces a TSS of 100 and then bike a course that should produce a TSS of 100, your cumulative actual TSS is definitely not 200. It's obviously higher, as anyone who has done a triathlon will tell you. But you can't see that from TSS alone, because the baselines of each discipline are unique. It's not *completely* unpredictive of course - if you work on your run you'll get better on the run - but if you accept that it's not accurate as a race-predictive device in triathlon it begs the question of why it's relied on as such. TSS tells you in a broad stroke that you're 1) well trained and 2) in good 'form', which *should* equate to a good race, but it doesn't of course. Never trained on hills and you're going to Placid? Good luck. FTP can't help you there.

Some people may do better with simplified instrumentation.  Some people may do well with the ability to incorporate a lot of 'dials' in order to make tweaks to their flight path that get them to their destination more efficiently.  Of course, if all your dials leave out the fact that at your altitude you will slam into the mountian in front of you, well then, I sure hope you look out the window too!  (I actually have no idea if I that metaphor has logic, but I'm going with it.)

All I'm trying to say is that data is not good or bad.  It's just data.  How one uses it may be useful or not.  People do tend to ascribe value to things that can be 'measured'.  Sometimes too much value.  With that, I think I agree with you.  However, for those who 'get' the big picture, then data can help fill in some of the details that make the picture stand out better.  (I'm on a metaphorical roll today.)

2014-10-03 2:42 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by fisherman76
Originally posted by JohnnyKay Basically the same as your scale.  And I agree with him 100%.  However, that doesn't preclude the use of data to help 'calibrate' your G/Y/R and/or to help you figure out how much time you can spend in those zones on an ongoing basis to achieve the adaptations you are looking for (to go further/faster for most of us here).  It's not an either/or proposition.  But many people, regardless of whether they use data analysis or not, have a hard time seeing the 'big picture' and understanding the basics about how to think about planning and altering their training to meet their goals (partly because many goals tend to be short-term, where endurance sports are always about the long-term).

Just my $0.02.  And free for you! 

Precisely, you get where I'm coming from. Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater, let the equations guide the instrumentation, but let's simplify the instrumentation so we can focus on the training and not try to mine data that serves little purpose besides warning us to slow down. I'll also contest that TSS is NOT predictive in our sport because it lacks the integration of cumulative load. If you run a course that produces a TSS of 100 and then bike a course that should produce a TSS of 100, your cumulative actual TSS is definitely not 200. It's obviously higher, as anyone who has done a triathlon will tell you. But you can't see that from TSS alone, because the baselines of each discipline are unique. It's not *completely* unpredictive of course - if you work on your run you'll get better on the run - but if you accept that it's not accurate as a race-predictive device in triathlon it begs the question of why it's relied on as such. TSS tells you in a broad stroke that you're 1) well trained and 2) in good 'form', which *should* equate to a good race, but it doesn't of course. Never trained on hills and you're going to Placid? Good luck. FTP can't help you there.

Some people may do better with simplified instrumentation.  Some people may do well with the ability to incorporate a lot of 'dials' in order to make tweaks to their flight path that get them to their destination more efficiently.  Of course, if all your dials leave out the fact that at your altitude you will slam into the mountian in front of you, well then, I sure hope you look out the window too!  (I actually have no idea if I that metaphor has logic, but I'm going with it.)

All I'm trying to say is that data is not good or bad.  It's just data.  How one uses it may be useful or not.  People do tend to ascribe value to things that can be 'measured'.  Sometimes too much value.  With that, I think I agree with you.  However, for those who 'get' the big picture, then data can help fill in some of the details that make the picture stand out better.  (I'm on a metaphorical roll today.)

There are also those who do both, depending on what they are training, and your second point is a good one.  I enjoy the data that comes back from power meters, HR monitors, GPS, etc.  My kid, on the other hand, will rarely even record something as simple as speed on a bike workout.....he does two different interval workouts and two different hill workouts per week when he's hitting it good.  The workouts last about an hour and he will tell you that he just goes hard enough to feel like he is going to puke after each interval/hill....he has said, "sometimes I can't even feel my legs".....but doesn't get ANY data other than his RPE.    BUT.....for his run work he wants it all.  HR, precise intervals, exact measurements...he's a data freak with running.  Swimming is in between for him.....be ready to go on the intervals but don't worry about what you hit the wall at....he can recall every interval but can't tell you a single split after a workout.

2014-10-03 3:04 PM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
Much like what was suggested above, a simple color system, with an indicator that it's time to re-test a threshold. Organize workouts into "1=Recovery", "2=Easy", "3=Moderate", "4=Hard", and "5=Intense", and say the max you can do for a day to be green for the next is 4, otherwise it carries over. So for example you do 2 "Easy" workouts, that's a 4, you're good. Do a "Hard" workout and an "Easy" workout in one day and you'll carry "1" over to the next day.

Behind the scenes, the classifications of the workouts would be based on TSS, TRIMP, VO2Max - whatever. It matters significantly less if the groupings are done in this regard. Let's use TSS as an example, say 125+ TSS = Intense, 100-125 TSS = Hard, "75-100" = Moderate, 50-75=Easy, <50=Recovery. That's a suggestion, let's poke holes in it together.
2014-10-03 3:19 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

Do you care whether the difficulty comes from intensity or volume? On limited time schedule a higher TSS ride will come with a higher IF, but not for all of us. I'll may get in several rides a week that are 125+, but they're still fairly easy as the IF is only 0.7 or so. The main point is the coupling of descriptors like "Intense" or "Hard" to TSS, especially the first as things may get confused with IF. Hope the partial thought makes sense as I'm a bit limited on time to respond at the moment.



2014-10-03 3:28 PM
in reply to: fisherman76

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
Originally posted by fisherman76

Behind the scenes, the classifications of the workouts would be based on TSS, TRIMP, VO2Max - whatever. It matters significantly less if the groupings are done in this regard. Let's use TSS as an example, say 125+ TSS = Intense, 100-125 TSS = Hard, "75-100" = Moderate, 50-75=Easy, <50=Recovery. That's a suggestion, let's poke holes in it together.


The issue here is that not all TSS are created equal - I can easily put together a ride of a TSS of 150 that will be easy and one with a TSS of 60 that will have you begging for mercy.

Shane
2014-10-03 3:31 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by fisherman76 Behind the scenes, the classifications of the workouts would be based on TSS, TRIMP, VO2Max - whatever. It matters significantly less if the groupings are done in this regard. Let's use TSS as an example, say 125+ TSS = Intense, 100-125 TSS = Hard, "75-100" = Moderate, 50-75=Easy, <50=Recovery. That's a suggestion, let's poke holes in it together.
The issue here is that not all TSS are created equal - I can easily put together a ride of a TSS of 150 that will be easy and one with a TSS of 60 that will have you begging for mercy. Shane

Sure ,but you still should be able to bounce back from the 60 TSS ride quicker than the 150 TSS ride.

2014-10-03 3:32 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
Originally posted by brigby1

Do you care whether the difficulty comes from intensity or volume? On limited time schedule a higher TSS ride will come with a higher IF, but not for all of us. I'll may get in several rides a week that are 125+, but they're still fairly easy as the IF is only 0.7 or so. The main point is the coupling of descriptors like "Intense" or "Hard" to TSS, especially the first as things may get confused with IF. Hope the partial thought makes sense as I'm a bit limited on time to respond at the moment.




brigby1, yes, makes perfect sense. You're right it would have to come from both. It would work so long as the workouts have a duration unit attached to them. Meaning a Hard workout for 1 hour could contain as much TSS as a Easy workout for 2 hours, so the easy counts as 2x2 = 4, same as the Hard. Makes scheduling easier, if you know you have 1.5 hours and a goal of 4 to hit for the day, you can do an moderate half hour for 1 and a hard one hour for 3 and get to 4. Blunt, still thinking it out.
2014-10-03 3:57 PM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: Is Data Analysis REALLY important to you?
Originally posted by msteiner

Sure ,but you still should be able to bounce back from the 60 TSS ride quicker than the 150 TSS ride.




An experiment - try the following:

Workout 1 - TSS approximately 150

Ride steady at 70% of FTP for 2 hours

Workout 2 - TSS approximately 60

10 minutes at 60% FTP
5x10s all out, 50s 60% FTP
5:00 60% FTP
4x5:00 at 110% FTP, 3:00 60%FTP
10 minutes at 60% FTP

Shane
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