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2014-12-03 2:23 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by Jackemy1

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Jackemy1
Originally posted by ChemNerd23
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
Originally posted by powerman I understand the point, and agree that one religion should not hold sway "legally". But the fact is there is a dominate religion in this country. And while there might not be a movement to get rid of belief, there absolutely is a movement to erase all acknowledgement legally. Christmas is the observation of Christ's birthday. If you don't believe in Christian, then fine. But why go out of your way to neuter the holiday for everyone else? Changing the name does not change what it is. So it goes both ways. And each side tries to use the Federal government to impose it's will. And both sides blame the other for doing it.
"Christmas is the observation of Christ's birthday." With all due respect, not in my house...and many other houses out there. Christmas to me is about the kids. Santa, gifts, love of family, helping others...fun stuff. That said, I have no problem with manger scenes on public grounds, or Christmas trees, etc. But, I'm not down with signs proclaiming "Jesus is the reason for the season" on public property. That goes for ANY faith. Just because you have a majority doesn't make it right. and btw, who's trying to "neuter" Christmas? I didn't even know Christmas had Jingle Ballz. Enjoy Christmas as religiously as you want...just keep it out of federal and state-funded property. Just my 2 cents.

I tend to agree with you CD.  Similar to the Supreme Court opinion i cited earlier Christmas is really more about what you described in the public space than it is about Christs birth.  Sure, there are many people who want it to be all about Jesus, but the reality is that it's more of a secular holiday than a religious one.

Even as a Christian I don't feel it's appropriate to have a "Jesus is the reason for the season" type stuff on public property.  I think where it gets tricky is with traditional Christmas things, which are religious in nature,  that are getting forced out of the public space.  For example kids have always had Christmas programs at school where they're singing songs like Silent Night.  There has been a direct assault on many schools to ban various songs due to them having religious content of any kind in them.  For me personally, I think that as a society that seeks tolerance and diversity should welcome religious songs from all cultures.

So there is a funny quote out there about religion in our culture: Religion is like a "gun" (insert what you will lol). It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it. But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around. And PLEASE don't try to shove it down our throats.
If religion is a gun, I think question is whose finger on the trigger do you want? Mankind just so happens to be a creature of faith. We are also social creatures and as a result we interject our belief systems and core morale principles into the societies we create. Therefore societies will always have religion and there will always be religion in the public square. Whether that religion is based in god, dear leader, or change in average temperature...oh the blasphemy..... , it will be there. So we can try to suppress and expunge our current dominate religions in the public square because it is offensive, or it is not inclusive, or in the name of diversity or whatever harmed ideal that you think justifies your cause. But in the end we are just creating a vacuum that will be filled by some other dominate religion. And I think if history serves right, the alternatives aren't very pleasant.

mankind just so happens to be a curious creature. a creature that needs explanations for how things work. So religions were created to explain what we could not, or to exert control over others. I don't see anywhere in the constitution that it says we all have to listen to made up stories for months on end, or allow someone else made up stories to be dominant over anything.  Go celebrate your holidays with your family however you choose, but stop fighting over forcing it upon everyone else. its getting old.

 

happy holidays.




As I said, every society has a dominant religion which guides their beliefs, principles and culture. The Western world is Judeo-Christian and North Korea's is Dear Leader. I am sorry to ruin your day but as Jmk-Brooklyn so beautifully illustrated with his photo of Rockefeller plaza, Judeo-Christian values are already forced down your throat and will be for the foreseeable future.

My point is that there are those that say you can remove religion from the public square. I argue that it will never happen even in your ideal world.


I guess I don't really see it as having it forced down my throat. Having to pass a Christmas tree on the way to the subway isn't compelling me to worship Jesus. What I think it silly, though is the idea that there's a war on organized religion.


It was another poster that commented on the throat thing and I just took off from that in my comment.

If I were to identify with any religion, it is Buddhism and would I agree that the displays of Christianity or actually the bastardization of Christianity during this season does not compel me to stop in to my local church either.

I do believe that there is a culture war and religion is just one piece of that societal conflict.


2014-12-16 8:43 AM
in reply to: Jackemy1

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...
My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies".

It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

2014-12-16 8:57 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies". It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

That made me lol for real.  

2014-12-16 9:19 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies". It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

That made me lol for real.  




I do not get that. I can see if it was originally called Mohammad friend or Jesus pal.
2014-12-16 9:24 AM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies". It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

That made me lol for real.  

I do not get that. I can see if it was originally called Mohammad friend or Jesus pal.

I have one kid that would refer to it as "secret santa" until she was suspended from school. LOL  My wife and I are not political at all but this kid will flat out refuse to do anything she thinks somehow is against her rights.   I'm saving bail money.

2014-12-16 10:53 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies". It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

That made me lol for real.  

I do not get that. I can see if it was originally called Mohammad friend or Jesus pal.

I have one kid that would refer to it as "secret santa" until she was suspended from school. LOL  My wife and I are not political at all but this kid will flat out refuse to do anything she thinks somehow is against her rights.   I'm saving bail money.

lol, I have two of those kids.  



2014-12-16 12:56 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies". It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

That made me lol for real.  

I do not get that. I can see if it was originally called Mohammad friend or Jesus pal.

I have one kid that would refer to it as "secret santa" until she was suspended from school. LOL  My wife and I are not political at all but this kid will flat out refuse to do anything she thinks somehow is against her rights.   I'm saving bail money.

lol, I have two of those kids.  




In Australia we still say Merry Christmas though yesterday saw my first TV Ad for Happy Holidays by Apple.

Santa was in fact a real person (saint Nicklaus) or some such.

I will continue to say Merry Christmas to anyone if they don't like it then don't say it back. The world has gone mad.
2014-12-17 8:24 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies". It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

That made me lol for real.  

I do not get that. I can see if it was originally called Mohammad friend or Jesus pal.

I have one kid that would refer to it as "secret santa" until she was suspended from school. LOL  My wife and I are not political at all but this kid will flat out refuse to do anything she thinks somehow is against her rights.   I'm saving bail money.




Yeah, to the tremendous credit of all the 5th graders, my son said that pretty much everyone still calls it "Secret Santa", and, to the credit of the teachers, no one seems to be too concerned with correcting them.
2014-12-17 9:57 AM
in reply to: jobaxas

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...
Originally posted by jobaxas

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies". It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

That made me lol for real.  

I do not get that. I can see if it was originally called Mohammad friend or Jesus pal.

I have one kid that would refer to it as "secret santa" until she was suspended from school. LOL  My wife and I are not political at all but this kid will flat out refuse to do anything she thinks somehow is against her rights.   I'm saving bail money.

lol, I have two of those kids.  




In Australia we still say Merry Christmas though yesterday saw my first TV Ad for Happy Holidays by Apple.

Santa was in fact a real person (saint Nicklaus) or some such.

I will continue to say Merry Christmas to anyone if they don't like it then don't say it back. The world has gone mad.


You say "Merry Christmas" and not "Happy Christmas"?
2014-12-21 12:51 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jobaxas
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies". It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

That made me lol for real.  

I do not get that. I can see if it was originally called Mohammad friend or Jesus pal.

I have one kid that would refer to it as "secret santa" until she was suspended from school. LOL  My wife and I are not political at all but this kid will flat out refuse to do anything she thinks somehow is against her rights.   I'm saving bail money.

lol, I have two of those kids.  

In Australia we still say Merry Christmas though yesterday saw my first TV Ad for Happy Holidays by Apple. Santa was in fact a real person (saint Nicklaus) or some such. I will continue to say Merry Christmas to anyone if they don't like it then don't say it back. The world has gone mad.
You say "Merry Christmas" and not "Happy Christmas"?

Merry Christmas in England too.  And a Happy New Year.

 

2014-12-22 8:40 AM
in reply to: Dan-L

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...

Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by jobaxas
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My son has a "Secret Santa" with the rest of his 5th grade class. But, of course, they can't call it a "Secret Santa", no, no, perish the thought. So they've come up with "Holiday Homies". It makes me simulataneously laugh and shake my head.

That made me lol for real.  

I do not get that. I can see if it was originally called Mohammad friend or Jesus pal.

I have one kid that would refer to it as "secret santa" until she was suspended from school. LOL  My wife and I are not political at all but this kid will flat out refuse to do anything she thinks somehow is against her rights.   I'm saving bail money.

lol, I have two of those kids.  

In Australia we still say Merry Christmas though yesterday saw my first TV Ad for Happy Holidays by Apple. Santa was in fact a real person (saint Nicklaus) or some such. I will continue to say Merry Christmas to anyone if they don't like it then don't say it back. The world has gone mad.
You say "Merry Christmas" and not "Happy Christmas"?

Merry Christmas in England too.  And a Happy New Year.

 

Merry New Year! ~ Nenge Mboko



2014-12-22 11:54 AM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...
Merry Christmas! And Happy Winter Solstice (a day late). I sent out my list of grievances to be letterpressed, to make Festivus a more formal celebration this year and so that I can hand them out as mementoes. The letterpress artist makes the most mundane and trivial seem so special.

LIBERAL

I consider myself liberal, always have. It seems to me that 'liberal' is often conflated with the Democratic party, and I don't subscribe to conflating liberalism with a party. I have no party affiliation and have had none for over 30 years; I've known since I was 7 that people will often disconnect their words or ideals from their deeds.

There is a spectrum of authority rights vs individual rights. Because I believe the rights of the individual are greater than the rights of the state (authority), I identify as liberal. The opposite end of the spectrum is, of course, that the rights of the state are greater than the rights of the individual. Where you lie on the spectrum is where we get into using words like moderate and extreme. Being a pragmatist who enjoys living in a more or less stable society, I approve of the rule of law that holds these two perspectives in a healthy, necessary tension. At the end of the day, I lean towards the rights of the individual, unless the state makes a sound and compelling case for trumping those rights. That's what being a liberal means to me.

HOLY DAYS

I no longer celebrate Christmas, but back when I did (before I found Buddhism), I always found the commercial (and now political) fetishization of Christmas to be distasteful and irrelevant to my Catholic faith. My favorite Christmas tradition was attending midnight mass on Christmas. It made me feel more connected to and warmth for my fellow man. Every year, like dreadful clockwork, I hear and read comments about the war on Christmas. Speaking as someone who once observed the holy day, but felt a great emptiness around what I considered to be the growing, orgiastic materialism of Christmas, I think more damage is done to the holy day by this hyper-consumerism and idolatry (Santa et al), and by the fetishization of Christmas, rather than by those who simply don't want religious figures displayed on government spaces or those who say Happy Holiday. And, while I agree with the overarching sentiment that Jesus is the Reason for the Season, it's not a season. It's a holy day, 2 days at best, and not the most important holy day on the liturgical calendar - that would be Easter which is actually a Holy Week, with a Lenten season. I think the Christian community in the US lost something special when the holy day became a holiday as excuse for a 7 week long spending-spree. I do not wish to harsh anyone's Christmas glow; I'm just sharing how I experienced Christmas and my sense of disconnect to how it was/is pervasively celebrated. I held these beliefs when I called myself a Christian, and I still see it that way, though it no longer makes me as sad for what is no longer my faith. Given this war on Christmas mentality every year, I feel the need to insist that I am not attacking anyone's beliefs. Practice as you wish. Really.

As for how to extend or receive warm wishes, I am no more offended by hearing Merry Christmas than I am by hearing Happy Holidays, Happy Chanukah, Happy Winter Solstice, or Happy Festivus. I tend to say Happy Holiday when the faith identity of my audience is ambiguous. If I know their faith identity, then I'll make my good wishes faith specific. How it is received is up to the receiver, not me. Please believe me when I write I am not warring upon you when I extend good wishes, albeit in a manner you might find insufficient to your faith.

However you celebrate, whatever you celebrate, whatever gets you through the night, it's all right.

(And Jonah, chag Chanukah sameach!)










2014-12-26 10:17 AM
in reply to: Renee

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...

Nice to see you back Renee, wishing you and yours the best in the new year.

 

Oh, excellent post btw. 

2014-12-29 10:14 AM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Are you a Liberal...
Originally posted by powerman

Sweet baby Jesus in the manger... What you made Christmas for you is not what Christmas is. You did not pick December 25th on the calendar to go out and buy stuff for. Thanksgiving is a good secular let's all get together holiday. And it's American. Christmas has been celebrated long before America was around. It is what it is. Just because you don't believe in Christian, doesn't change that. How you choose to spend your paid day off is up to you. My paid day off has nothing to do with Christ. But I don't demand that nothing about Christ is on public property. How ridiculous.

I just read a story about a group of parents flipping out at a PTA meeting about the field trip to see the "Nutcracker". They were disturbed about the "questionable content". They were p1ssed there was a Christmas tree on stage. Nobody should have to work so hard to be offended.

You know, you could always celebrate Festivus with the rest of us.


I'm late to this party, but I always get a kick out of the whole "war on Christmas" mindset. Most people forget that the Puritans banned Christmas. And that Christmas was not an "official" holiday in the US until after the Civil War.

http://www.thehistoryofchristmas.com/ch/in_america.htm

In our house, we celebrate holidays of several traditions - at least the ones that involve eating and gifts. We celebrate in a purely secular fashion. And we are fine with that. So this time of year, we have a big tree AND a menorah. And now that the kids are grown, we have our ham dinner for christmas eve and our latkes on christmas day.
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