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2014-12-25 5:52 AM

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Subject: Not getting enough sleep
I just joined a masters swim program. They swim M-F at 6:00am. Because of where they are I have to get up at 4:45am to grab something to eat and make the drive. Getting up that early is not the problem. It's sleeping until 4:45. I wake up at 1:00 or 2:00 and can't get back to sleep. BTW - It's 3:34am and I am wide awake. I've been awake since 1:00am.

If I go with only 4 hours sleep the swim is bad and my day sucks. I have tried getting up and doing something but my options are limited with three other people and two dogs sleeping in he house. I have tried just staying in bed but the longer I lay there the more awake I become out of sheer frustration.

I watch what I eat and how late I have anything to drink. I don't take any caffeine (no coffee or soda).

So any tips on retraining the body to the new routine? Tips on getting a better nights sleep. This routine right now is killing me.


2014-12-25 7:21 AM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Sorry to hear about your sleep troubles. I have had problems with my sleep for my entire life.
What wakes you up at night? Do you worry a lot or it is more physiological issue? Sleep hygiene helps a lot.
I used to suffer from insomnia I was getting 3-4 hours of sleep at night. It was a nightmare, I was totally exhausted all the time.
I went for therapy and now I get 6 hours of sleep a night. It is not ideal, I still feel tired but not exhausted.
Therapy is great for sleep problems related to psychological issues, stress etc. 90% of sleep problems is caused by stress etc.




2014-12-25 3:04 PM
in reply to: #5076871

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
How was your sleep before you joined the masters class?
Do you have to go every day?
2014-12-25 7:10 PM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Ugh, that sounds terrible.
I had something similar happen to me a few months ago- I was trying to go to be earlier and wake up at the same time every day, but I'd wake up around 1 or 2 and just be wide awake, it would take me 3-4 hours to fall back asleep, although I don't have to be up until 6:30 most days.
3 things that helped:
making sure I didn't have to pee in the middle of the night (this involved drinking less in the evening)
having white noise on all night- I think it might have been a small noise that woke me up
when I did wake up, telling myself right away, "No, go back to sleep". I think maybe part of the problem was that I'd half wake up and think it was almost time to wake up. Part of the problem is that the sun rises so late, it's impossible to tell if it's 3 am or 7 am without a clock.
And maybe part of it was just having a few weeks for my body to get used to it. :/ Hope your body clock adjusts sooner rather than later!
2014-12-26 12:15 PM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

I have the same thing several mornings per week.  I've been telling myself for 15 years that it's excitement to work out...

Whether it's swim, bike or run workouts (I do all swimming and running before work, some riding) if I wake up during the night I can't fall back asleep easily...

I have a few sleep issues too however I don't typically have the wake up and can't fall back asleep problem on the days I'm not working out in the morning...Weird but I've accepted it.

The longer you do your routine the better it should become but it may never be perfect...

Plenty of time to catch up on sleep when we're dead....

2014-12-26 4:46 PM
in reply to: Nick B


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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
ambien...


2014-12-27 9:58 AM
in reply to: ttuna

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Originally posted by ttunaambien...
I take ambien and still struggle...I should add that I use a CPAP too..
2014-12-27 12:20 PM
in reply to: TriMike


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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
I'm the third to add that I take Ambien...but it does some weird things to me sometimes, so I try to be careful and use it as a "last resort". I talked to my Dr and he said it was OK to split 10 mg tabs in 1/2 if I wanted to. So I try taking 5 mg first and if I can't sleep, I'll take the full tab.

As was already stated, "sleep hygiene" is very important. If you're not familiar, I'd recommend to google it.

Also, evaluate stress in your life like was already stated.

I've had some limited success with benedryl ((diphenhydramine). It's normally taken for allergies, but is also the active ingredient in most sleeping pills. 2 x25 mg tabs has helped stay asleep. My biggest issue most of the time is not falling asleep, but it's jerking awake in the middle of the night and then being up for 2 hrs. This has helped me sleep through the night. If it works, buy in bulk allergy pills (4 bucks for a 400 count at Sams Club instead of buying 24 sleeping tabs with the same dosage and ingredient for 10 bucks)

The doctor also suggested Melatonin. I'm a huge skeptic of non-FDA approved meds (no essential oils, herbal remedies, or natural colon "cleanse" products for me. It was 11 bucks at Sam's Club for a big bottle, so I tried it. Maybe it's the placebo effect, but it seems to help as well.

I don't combine all these at once...Right now I do 5 mg of Melatonin...if I can't sleep after 20 minutes, I'll take 1/2 an Ambien.

One more word of caution on Ambien...DO NOT drink any alcohol and take it. One time I drank a single beer at about 8 pm, then took an Ambien around 10:30. I didn't think it would be a big deal. It resulted in the most cracked out dreams and sleep walking I've ever experienced!!!

2014-12-27 9:02 PM
in reply to: Jdheidenreich

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Thanks for all the feedback. Let me see if I can quickly answer the questions posed.

This is somewhat new. It is common for me to wake up and have trouble getting back to sleep but t is generally in the 4:00-5:00am time range. 1:00 -2:00am is the new wrinkle. If it was 4:00 I could live with it.

Certainly don’t have to go to swim every day but I do want to.

Will Ambien help me stay asleep or just get to sleep? Falling asleep is never the problem. I had someone else suggest Melatonin. Seems like a cheap and easy thing to try before going to a prescription Rx.

I have tried Benadryl when my allergies act up but it does not do good things for me. Scratch that idea for me.

No issues about alcohol. In a normal year you can count on one hand the times I drink any.

I guess where I am at is I will try Melatonin first and see what that does. Hopefully that will work until I can get my body into the rhythm.
2014-12-27 9:37 PM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
I am an advocate of the 5mg (1/2 pill) ambien as well.
I have sucked at sleeping for a while. Some of it can be stress related, physical, mental or emotional. Typically, when in some sort of training regiment, you are stressing your body to some extent. I have found a magnesium supplement called Natural Calm that I use with some regularity. I am not a fan of the holistic medicine, herbal, granola (hippie drugs for lack of a better term) but have found that the Natural Calm helps me, placebo effect or not. Just mix it with water, or something else (I use gatorade). Worst case, you are out a few bucks.
2014-12-28 7:33 AM
in reply to: Stuartap


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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Will Ambien help me stay asleep or just get to sleep? Falling asleep is never the problem. I had someone else suggest Melatonin. Seems like a cheap and easy thing to try before going to a prescription Rx.

--I find it does both for me, although the research says that it is most effective in helping individuals fall asleep, not stay asleep. My biggest issue was falling asleep at 10 pm, then waking up at 12:30 or 1 and then being up for hours. The Ambien seems to help with the frequent wake ups I would have. Again, just my experience...

The 1/2 life of the drug is about 2+ hours, so it breaks down in your system fairly quickly. I believe there is a CR tablet as well (controlled release) that might be effective in helping you stay asleep--I'd talk with your Dr about that if you do move in this direction.

I'd certainly recommend what you listed--trying the melatonin first before moving to an Rx. Good luck!!!



2014-12-28 8:56 AM
in reply to: Jdheidenreich

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
--I find it does both for me, although the research says that it is most effective in helping individuals fall asleep, not stay asleep. My biggest issue was falling asleep at 10 pm, then waking up at 12:30 or 1 and then being up for hours. The Ambien seems to help with the frequent wake ups I would have. Again, just my experience...

It is crucial to figure out what wakes you up. It could be something physical like acid, sleep apnea, indigestion. or psychological, nightmares, anxiety, stress. Do you worry a lot?
2014-12-29 12:03 AM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
I might be of assistance on this! I am stationed overseas currently and with my 2 a days training along with my hours of work changing every day, I often find it hard to sleep. It sucks!!!! The things that help me the most are Melatonin and Zinc Magnesium Aspartate. Both aid "naturally" in sleep!!! I take 1 5mg tablet of Melatonin around 30 mins before bed. Keeps me asleep most nights, but if not I tend to get up and put in another workout. The Marines in the house think I'm insane for training so damn much hahaha! ZMA gets you to your REM sleep faster, you will have vivid dreams if taken. This is normal. ZMA tends to work more for me, as it aids in sleep and an increase in growth hormones therefore recovering faster.

I hope this helps!

-Smitty
2014-12-29 9:23 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
FWIW, I would stay away from Ambien or any sleeping drug for that matter.. I have seen first hand with family members some of the side effects it has, and how easily someone can become dependent on it.

You don't say what time you typically go to bed ... as others have mentioned, "sleep hygiene" is very important. I think I would work on that first, then maybe if that doesn't work, try some natural supplements. But I would definitely not recommend resorting to Ambien or any other pharmaceutical for that matter..

Edited by rventuri 2014-12-29 9:37 AM
2014-12-29 10:00 AM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

I use melatonin...just 3mg at night to help me fall into that relaxed state of mind...you have to be careful with it - start with a small dose as it can create really crazy dreams.   I think it helps you fall asleep but I am not sure about going back to sleep.  It is really important to keep all electronics out of the bedroom...the only exception I would give to this is I have some relaxation recordings on my phone and will put in headphones and listen to those before going to sleep...you could try them in the middle of the night  Here is the link to some free downloads:  http://www.dartmouth.edu/~healthed/relax/downloads.html

They really help set your mind for sleep and maybe can help clear your head so you can stay asleep.  Good luck  My BF has sleep issues stemming from a Traumatic Brain Injury and his sleep (lack of) really affects my sleep....he won't leave the electronics out of the room and as a result spends hours upon hours on the computer in the  middle of the night.  *sigh*.  

 

 

 

2014-12-29 10:18 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

I drink Tart Cherry concentrate nightly.  I have been using it for years and it naturally increases your body's production of melatonin.  As an added bonus, it also is an antioxidant and antinflammatory, so it can help us athletes in other ways as well.  Here is a link, and if you google it, there is a lot of info out there about it.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/tart-cherry-juice-found-cut-levels-uric-acid-and-inflammation-biomarker-blood-306112



Edited by emferg 2014-12-29 10:20 AM


2014-12-29 11:05 AM
in reply to: rventuri

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

Originally posted by rventuri FWIW, I would stay away from Ambien or any sleeping drug for that matter.. I have seen first hand with family members some of the side effects it has, and how easily someone can become dependent on it. You don't say what time you typically go to bed ... as others have mentioned, "sleep hygiene" is very important. I think I would work on that first, then maybe if that doesn't work, try some natural supplements. But I would definitely not recommend resorting to Ambien or any other pharmaceutical for that matter..

What side affects do they have?

I specifically asked my Dr.'s (primary care Dr. and my Pulmonologist) about side affects and any long term "issues", whether it be dependence or heart implications and both said there is no evidence to suggest any long term issues whatsoever.

I bring that up not to dispute you, but to explain what I was told.

I hate taking prescriptions for sleep however it has helped me improve somewhat...

Melatonin did nothing for me....10mg of Ambien and I still need well over an hour to fall asleep... Then I wake up anywhere between 3:00-4:00am, going to bed lights out between 9:30-10:00pm.... Was 9:30 forever however I thought maybe I was waking up because I was going to bed too early so I adjusted it back a half hour.  3x weekly I'm up at 5:00am to swim, the other two days it's 6:00am.  Weekends I'll wake up and just stay in bed going back to sleep on and off until anywhere from 7:00-8:00am.  I try to not take naps either as I know it can contribute to sleep problems... No caffeine after noon, little or no exercise before bed (except for pizza occasionally)...

Thanks

2014-12-30 6:58 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Originally posted by TriMikeWhat side affects do they have?


Mainly behavioral ... Ambien driving (two instances), binge eating 15-30 minutes after taking Ambien resulting in substantial weight gain. Probably the most serious was deciding to put a snack in the toaster oven after taking Ambien, then falling asleep on the couch, and the items in the oven basically catching on fire ... thankfully the smoke alarm went off. Instances like these didn't happen prior to regularly taking Ambien.

I think these type of behaviors while in an "Ambien Stupor" are pretty well documented.

As for any long term physical side effects other than the weight gain, it is hard to say. although I am sure putting a chemical in your body that wasn't intended to be there over a long period of time is bound to have some negative implications.

Basically, this is someone who has taken it long term (even though it is no longer effective and they still have sleep issues) and they continue to taken it regularly. Most of the literature I have seen says it is for "short term and intermittent use only", although I doubt most who take it adhere to that and it becomes a part of their "sleep hygiene" more or less.

As for what your doctors said ... my personal experience is that doctors tend to gloss over or minimize side effects of medication for whatever reason ... I think it is imperative to do your own research.





Edited by rventuri 2014-12-30 7:06 AM
2014-12-30 8:39 AM
in reply to: Stuartap

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Every time I increase in training load I get insomnia. It's like clockwork; I'll sleep until 1-2:00am then be wide awake for one to two hours before falling back to sleep, then feeling like crap when the alarm goes off. Once my body gets used to the change I'll be fine again and sleep through the night. For me, it's important to just roll with it. If I get myself too riled up, it just keeps me up longer. I like to read, and don't get time to during the day, so I use that as something to look forward too. Like, I wake up and instead of thinking...ugh...this crap again, I'm like, alright, I get to read that next chapter. If you want any good book recommendations, just let me know .

I take melatonin as well, but it really just helps me fall asleep. By the time I wake up in the middle of the night, it's long since worn off.
2014-12-30 8:56 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

I've struggled to fall asleep for years... Then when I started wearing a CPAP it went downhill from there which is why I was prescribed ambien.  

Ambien however hasn't helped me fall asleep any quicker, although if I wasn't wearing a CPAP maybe I would... I was also prescribed xanax to help with the CPAP anxiety however that hasn't helped so I stopped taking it.

I'm afraid if I picked up a book to read at 3:00am I'd be up the rest of the night/morning.... May have to try it though because you're right, the more I think about not sleeping the more agitated I get...

I can't stop using my CPAP either as my snoring is unacceptable to my wife, not to mention I have severe sleep apnea...

2014-12-30 9:44 AM
in reply to: #5076871

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
A word of caution on the Ambien. Some people (myself included) are prone to crazy hallucinations on Ambien. I don't know how common it is, but I've come across it various places online so I can't be the only one.

Melatonin helps me, but I have problems getting to sleep, not waking up. I have a sleeping pill to help with that but for the life of me I can't think of the name. I like it b/c it's out of your system in 3-4 hours and doesn't leave you with that hungover feeling you can get with Ambien or Lunesta. If for some reason that's not doing the trick a shot of NyQuil after I take my pill knocks me out


2014-12-30 2:36 PM
in reply to: Toefuzz

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

I would stay away from any sleeping pill especially Ambien.  Even melatonin.

Find the underlying issue - there is one.

But that doesn't help in the mean time.  I will tell you what has worked for me.  I have had chronic sleep issues for 10+ years.  I have no troubles falling asleep but staying asleep is an issue for me here is what I do (I know that you mentioned some of these but I'm just making my list);

- No caffeine after 1400
- No television / computer / phone / tablet in the bedroom
- I wear a dental appliance for mild sleep apnea (not a CPAP)
- If I wake up and cannot fall back o sleep I get out of bed and do something quiet (such as reading) for about 10/15 minutes
- Keep it cool in the room, while it's nice to be cozy warm you sleep better in cooler temperatures
- I have a routine that I do before I go to bed that I do every night.
 
I generally have lights out at 2230 and get up at 0500
 
I still wake up, but I have noticed improvement in the quality of my sleep.
 
 

 

2014-12-31 7:33 AM
in reply to: Toefuzz

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

Originally posted by Toefuzz A word of caution on the Ambien. Some people (myself included) are prone to crazy hallucinations on Ambien. I don't know how common it is, but I've come across it various places online so I can't be the only one. Melatonin helps me, but I have problems getting to sleep, not waking up. I have a sleeping pill to help with that but for the life of me I can't think of the name. I like it b/c it's out of your system in 3-4 hours and doesn't leave you with that hungover feeling you can get with Ambien or Lunesta. If for some reason that's not doing the trick a shot of NyQuil after I take my pill knocks me out

 

Ambien is a sleeping pill so are you taking more than one?

I think I've figured out a pattern with my sleep and Ambien... It always seems to take a long time to fall asleep yet I'll wake up ~ 4 hours into my night...  Some nights I can fall asleep again, however other nights I'm wide awake... 

Last night was one of them... Awake from somewhere around 1:00am until after 2:30am.... I was Lights out at 9:30pm...

Using the CPAP definitely contributes to the dilemma, however my sleep issues pre-date the CPAP...

 

2014-12-31 2:39 PM
in reply to: smithdakotad

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Originally posted by Dakota_Smith

I might be of assistance on this! I am stationed overseas currently and with my 2 a days training along with my hours of work changing every day, I often find it hard to sleep. It sucks!!!! The things that help me the most are Melatonin and Zinc Magnesium Aspartate. Both aid "naturally" in sleep!!! I take 1 5mg tablet of Melatonin around 30 mins before bed. Keeps me asleep most nights, but if not I tend to get up and put in another workout. The Marines in the house think I'm insane for training so damn much hahaha! ZMA gets you to your REM sleep faster, you will have vivid dreams if taken. This is normal. ZMA tends to work more for me, as it aids in sleep and an increase in growth hormones therefore recovering faster.

I hope this helps!

-Smitty


Agreed, been doing ZMA for years, and in addition to 5-htp. This combo helped my brother sleep during two loud tours in Iraq as well. God Bless ya DSmith
2014-12-31 6:18 PM
in reply to: Toefuzz

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Try herbal tea. They have one called sleepy time. It is not as strong as pills but that's a good thing. It is all natural with no side effects. The only problem is if you drink to much, you have to get up to pee.
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