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2015-03-24 1:53 PM
in reply to: Moonrocket

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Moonrocket I find doing flip turns reduces the chance of a third person asking to join your lane and circle swim. That has a huge impact on my workouts.

OK, now that I can understand and appreciate.



2015-03-24 2:01 PM
in reply to: popsracer

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Well water feel, you can believe me or not, but you get better water feel when you do flip turns. You have to have good proprioception to flip, hit the wall, and push off at the correct angle and in the correct position.  What is swimming technique? a whole ton of proprioception. Its one thing to "know" the correct way to swim, and it is another to feel what you are actually doing. 

Every time you do an open turn, you're taking a little rest at the wall, and probably taking an extra breath.  When I get really tired, I will occasionally do an open turn. Why? Because its easier and it gives me a break.  The wall is a turn, not a vacation. It helps you manage your breathing and your effort correctly.

Breath control.  When I was new, I had trouble with getting the breathing down.  I could always count on the wall to be a place to catch my breath.  Have you ever been in an open water race and had a wave, or boat, or other swimmer splash water in your face when you go to breathe? Having better breathing control can really help you in an open water race.  If I miss a breath or two now, its no big deal.

 

 

 

2015-03-24 2:13 PM
in reply to: popsracer

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by ironswimming Personally, I definitely notice that I can more easily get in the zone during swims when I do flip turns. I find that laps flow together more with flip turns. The starting and stopping of open turns break up the swimming. I'm also more tempted to stop with open turns or hand on the wall for an extra breath.

I appreciate your thoughts but if I can get in the zone and not take an extra breath or pause at the wall why do so many people imply that if I don't do flip turns I'm violating a foundation training principle (like only swimming steady state)?

Well, every turn you are practicing your streamline, so you're missing out on that. Water feel, continuity in your workout, and your breakouts are all swim skills that DO matter in open water.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the points being made in defense of the flip turn.  How is it different when I push off from the wall with an open turn or a flip turn in terms of practicing my streamlining?  I do focus on water feel and streamlining as I push off from my open turn.

Every time you touch the wall and do an open turn you are resting. I'm waiting for it but, Yes, you are.  Non-swimmers don't understand how that extra second or so can even remotely be called rest.....swimmers easily get it.

2015-03-24 2:39 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by dmiller5

Well water feel, you can believe me or not, but you get better water feel when you do flip turns. You have to have good proprioception to flip, hit the wall, and push off at the correct angle and in the correct position.  What is swimming technique? a whole ton of proprioception. Its one thing to "know" the correct way to swim, and it is another to feel what you are actually doing. 

Every time you do an open turn, you're taking a little rest at the wall, and probably taking an extra breath.  When I get really tired, I will occasionally do an open turn. Why? Because its easier and it gives me a break.  The wall is a turn, not a vacation. It helps you manage your breathing and your effort correctly.

Breath control.  When I was new, I had trouble with getting the breathing down.  I could always count on the wall to be a place to catch my breath.  Have you ever been in an open water race and had a wave, or boat, or other swimmer splash water in your face when you go to breathe? Having better breathing control can really help you in an open water race.  If I miss a breath or two now, its no big deal.

  

Ok, I had to look this up so those who want a new word for today.  Proprioception (/?pro?pri.?'s?p??n/ PRO-pree-o-SEP-sh?n), from Latin proprius, meaning "one's own", "individual," and perception, is the sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement.

You do make some good points. 

2015-03-24 3:01 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Left Brain
Every time you touch the wall and do an open turn you are resting. I'm waiting for it but, Yes, you are.  Non-swimmers don't understand how that extra second or so can even remotely be called rest.....swimmers easily get it.




HAH! Keep waiting, you will not get me to say I'm not resting. I know I am.
It's not the rest I'm looking for as much as it is 'breath catching'. Although, I suppose, you can't interpret that any other way than "resting". I was recently down in Del Boca Vista Phase 2, visiting my parents in Florida. While the Gulf was swimmable, it was a tad chilly. More like Lake Michigan in the second or third week of July. I took my brand spanking new wetsuit (thanks BT and Exterra for a good deal for a hobbyist like me!) to give it a go.

My goal is to eliminate the occasional handful of strokes of breast stroking I find myself doing in longerish open water swims every couple hundred (500?) yards to do a little 'breath catching'. I don't want to be outed on here as 'that bucket sitting guy who kicked me during the swim".

I was definitely better in the Gulf having been swimming regularly this winter, but open water is still very different for me and likely will be. Then again, knowing they catch sharks where I was (probably little things, don't care...I'm not a shark fan unless it's grilled and comes with a peach salsa), I was swimming laterally and no further out than the kiddos who were out past the sandbar and are hopefully more tasty to a shark....I was able to just stand up for a few seconds instead of treading water/breast stroking. I know I did it a couple times, not sure how much. No good way to measure.

I'm still working on technique. A wise man (or wise guy, as the case may be) once told me to look for videos and articles. It's helping. Also reading discussion here. And occasionally I swim at the same time as a gal who teaches swimming and is an open water swimmer. She's given me a few pats on the back and has noticed my improvement. Once I'm more comfortable with consistency there, I will start mixing in some flip turning.
2015-03-24 3:14 PM
in reply to: DanielG

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by DanielG Who the hell cares? Do them. Don't do them. Figure out which works for you and keep on trucking.

This.

As an adult-onset swimmer, you may or may not find flipturns helpful/useful/easy.  It took me several years to learn to do them and I still don't normally do them. Its a separate skill in and of itself that is not utilized in open water.  And you can be a very strong swimmer without doing them regularly. 

I'm not trying to make this a "look at me" post, but to offer a counter balance to many other posts here.  I don't normally do flip turns.  I routinely finish in the top 10% of the swim leg of a triathlon.  And I have qualified for, and will be competing in, next month's US Masters Swimming Nationals.

And one can get plenty of proprioceptive input by doing open turns.  One gets a whole lot of input from pushing off walls in streamline and dolphining.  From doing the different strokes.  Again, a flip turn is a skill in and of itself that is not used in open water.  If you like them, great.  Keep doing them.  If you don't like them, you can still be a very strong swimmer. 

X



2015-03-24 3:21 PM
in reply to: jhaack39

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

A friend of mine was training for an open water swim and we use to discuss what kind of workouts he could do in order to build up to a 2k race in the canals of Amsterdam.  He did three sessions a week, one long endurance swim, one middle distance plus stroke work, and one with some hard sprints and 400 repeats afterwards.  He got his 100 average from about 1.55 down to 1.35 in training over 9 months - which isn't bad going.  But when he did the swim he absolutely died after less than 1k.

We analysed all the possibilities and came up with nothing.  I assumed he'd just been a bit loose with the truth on his times and the amount of sessions he'd done but then I visited Amsterdam and we went for a swim together.  He was taking a huge breath at the end of every 25m.  So we started to learn flip turns.  His times went back down to 1.50 again and he couldn't do the distances in the session he had been - it put him back (so he thought), six months.

Then he slowly built back up but always using flip turns and the next year he killed his 2k

The only thing I would say is that he found it pretty difficult to learn them and they're still pretty poor - it seems like a lot of investment into a skill that you don't need on race day - but I think the additional endurance benefit you gain from training is worth it.

2015-03-24 3:31 PM
in reply to: Ridgelake


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Ridgelake

Originally posted by DanielG Who the hell cares? Do them. Don't do them. Figure out which works for you and keep on trucking.

This.

As an adult-onset swimmer, you may or may not find flipturns helpful/useful/easy.  It took me several years to learn to do them and I still don't normally do them. Its a separate skill in and of itself that is not utilized in open water.  And you can be a very strong swimmer without doing them regularly. 

I'm not trying to make this a "look at me" post, but to offer a counter balance to many other posts here.  I don't normally do flip turns.  I routinely finish in the top 10% of the swim leg of a triathlon.  And I have qualified for, and will be competing in, next month's US Masters Swimming Nationals.

And one can get plenty of proprioceptive input by doing open turns.  One gets a whole lot of input from pushing off walls in streamline and dolphining.  From doing the different strokes.  Again, a flip turn is a skill in and of itself that is not used in open water.  If you like them, great.  Keep doing them.  If you don't like them, you can still be a very strong swimmer. 

X




But are you the exception? I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the top 10% do flip turns. Conversely I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the bottom 10% don't.
2015-03-24 3:47 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

But are you the exception? I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the top 10% do flip turns. Conversely I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the bottom 10% don't.

You're probably right that 95% of the top 10% regularly do flip turns because odds are that they swam in high school and/or college.  They are used to doing them.  But if you're an adult onset swimmer and find learning them to be a struggle, again, you can still become a good swimmer and place well in that leg. 

Flip turns are a separate and distinct skill that is not used in open water.  If you want to learn them and do them, great.  They certainly won't hurt. But again, you can be a strong swimmer without them.



Edited by Ridgelake 2015-03-24 3:53 PM
2015-03-24 4:11 PM
in reply to: Dan-L

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Dan-L it seems like a lot of investment into a skill that you don't need on race day - but I think the additional endurance benefit you gain from training is worth it.


I wouldn't say it's any investment at all. I know some people dedicate specific time in the pool to practicing flip-turns, but realistically you get the chance to practice your flip-turn every single lap, so learning them shouldn't take any time away from your regular routines. I suppose it's an investment of effort/work, but I don't see it as a time investment.
2015-03-24 4:15 PM
in reply to: Ridgelake

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

I'm not going to bother arguing either way but will agree with LB and DMiller.  FOR ME, an open turn is a rest break.  Why else when I'm gassed will I start using an open turn every other lap or so?  Because it's a fraction of a second I can gulp more air.  That half a second makes a big difference to me by starting a length with a nice lungful or starting in oxygen debt.

Does an open turn HAVE to be a rest break?  I suppose not.  I suppose I could rush them and get the same effect.

For ME, swimming is being SMOOTH.  I nice smooth flip turn sets me up for a smooth length, just like a nice smooth pre shot swing in golf.  I feel that my "smooth" is maintained with flip turns that a more awkward open turn which takes me a stroke or two to get back into it.

Look, the pros and top people do them.  So they can't be "bad" for you.  I know most of us will NEVER be at that level in terms of performance but you know what the average person CAN do is?  Practice like a pro.  We follow the pros when it comes to nutrition, equipment, training methods, etc.  Why not swimming practice?

Flip turns give ME more general water/body awareness.  A comfort in the water other than turning out freestyle lengths.  I also practice backstroke and butterfly, dolphin kicks and use training aids like buoys, paddles and kickboards - all in the attempt to be a better SWIMMER which in turn probably makes me better in the swim portion of triathlon.

I think all of this is being the best runner I can me, the best biker, and the best swimmer, assuming I can put them all together and the result would be a semi decent triathlete.

My 0.02.  Which my be even worth less than that since I'm on a bit of a "hiatus". 

 

 



2015-03-24 4:33 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
What'd I miss?

2015-03-24 5:37 PM
in reply to: Moonrocket

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Moonrocket

I find doing flip turns reduces the chance of a third person asking to join your lane and circle swim. That has a huge impact on my workouts.


Your lucky if you can always split a lane with just one other person.

Flip turns would be pretty dangerous in the pool I swim in, but regardless- I've never been able to learn to do them. A friend has tried to convince me that it will make my swim practicing and swimming better, but they have been difficult for me to learn and I just end up slowing down a lot.
2015-03-24 5:44 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Goosedog What'd I miss?

Flip turns are good.

Unless you don't want to do them.

2015-03-24 6:03 PM
in reply to: Ridgelake

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Ridgelake

But are you the exception? I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the top 10% do flip turns. Conversely I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the bottom 10% don't.

You're probably right that 95% of the top 10% regularly do flip turns because odds are that they swam in high school and/or college.  They are used to doing them.  But if you're an adult onset swimmer and find learning them to be a struggle, again, you can still become a good swimmer and place well in that leg. 

Flip turns are a separate and distinct skill that is not used in open water.  If you want to learn them and do them, great.  They certainly won't hurt. But again, you can be a strong swimmer without them.

I take it you are faster now than the 26:XX - 28:XX oly swims you posted up in 2011 / 2012?  I looked because I wanted to see how fast you were.  You';d be hard pressed to make the top 10% here in the Midwest in a 1500 Oly swim with those times.

I really don't see how there is an argument for not trying to learn to do them to become a better swimmer.  But yeah, don't do them if you don't want to.

2015-03-24 6:06 PM
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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Was going to chime in....opted out, dang post won't delete

Edited by TJHammer 2015-03-24 6:09 PM


2015-03-24 6:14 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by jennifer_runs

Originally posted by Moonrocket

I find doing flip turns reduces the chance of a third person asking to join your lane and circle swim. That has a huge impact on my workouts.


Your lucky if you can always split a lane with just one other person.

Flip turns would be pretty dangerous in the pool I swim in, but regardless- I've never been able to learn to do them. A friend has tried to convince me that it will make my swim practicing and swimming better, but they have been difficult for me to learn and I just end up slowing down a lot.


I find people get really nervous around people flip turning. I can reliably hit an 8" square spot on the wall to flip turn. People seem to think you need half of a lane free to flip turn- really you only need a space slightly larger than someone's hand to plant your feet and go. Just spot a free area to come off the wall and a small space on the wall.

Yes- I am lucky to swim in a mostly split lane situation!
2015-03-24 7:28 PM
in reply to: popsracer

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Because you don't rest every 25.
2015-03-24 7:40 PM
in reply to: Ridgelake

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
I can say I disagree 110%

If the Times LB posted are accurate I haven't swam that slow since 1987, age 10.
2015-03-24 7:58 PM
in reply to: #5102993

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
I noticed that it was a rest break. I do my very best to not take much more than a small breath while turning. I've tried a few times to learn to flip. But at the time I needed to get the yardage in.

I do feel that we leave off the beginner part of beginner triathlete quite often.

The OPs message while very spamy seems right on the money. Gives some good tips on how and why to do the flip turn but doesn't accuse those that don't as bein inferior.
2015-03-24 8:05 PM
in reply to: Moonrocket

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Moonrocket
Originally posted by jennifer_runs
Originally posted by Moonrocket I find doing flip turns reduces the chance of a third person asking to join your lane and circle swim. That has a huge impact on my workouts.
Your lucky if you can always split a lane with just one other person. Flip turns would be pretty dangerous in the pool I swim in, but regardless- I've never been able to learn to do them. A friend has tried to convince me that it will make my swim practicing and swimming better, but they have been difficult for me to learn and I just end up slowing down a lot.
I find people get really nervous around people flip turning. I can reliably hit an 8" square spot on the wall to flip turn. People seem to think you need half of a lane free to flip turn- really you only need a space slightly larger than someone's hand to plant your feet and go. Just spot a free area to come off the wall and a small space on the wall. Yes- I am lucky to swim in a mostly split lane situation!

Some guys at masters at masters will flip with 3 people lined up along the wall. I've only had the nerve to do it with two.



2015-03-24 8:20 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
If its tight ( crowded lane or very crowded meet warm up) I stack my feet vertically. Faster swimmers tend have a much smaller footprint on their lane.
2015-03-24 8:23 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Ridgelake

But are you the exception? I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the top 10% do flip turns. Conversely I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the bottom 10% don't.

You're probably right that 95% of the top 10% regularly do flip turns because odds are that they swam in high school and/or college.  They are used to doing them.  But if you're an adult onset swimmer and find learning them to be a struggle, again, you can still become a good swimmer and place well in that leg. 

Flip turns are a separate and distinct skill that is not used in open water.  If you want to learn them and do them, great.  They certainly won't hurt. But again, you can be a strong swimmer without them.

I take it you are faster now than the 26:XX - 28:XX oly swims you posted up in 2011 / 2012?  I looked because I wanted to see how fast you were.  You';d be hard pressed to make the top 10% here in the Midwest in a 1500 Oly swim with those times.

I really don't see how there is an argument for not trying to learn to do them to become a better swimmer.  But yeah, don't do them if you don't want to.

If I'm remembering the quoted poster correctly, he had a 2:03 200 as an adult onset swimmer awhile back. Also the Nationals Qualifying times for late 30's would be more appropriate than those tri times though I'm not sure which events. That 200 may have improved since.

With that up there, various numbers like those and other percentages that are being thrown around in both directions aren't necessarily that helpful either. Kind of correlation and causation logic to an extent. Definitely up for people wanting to improve their swim learning to do them. A number of said benefits with the flip turn can be had paying attention to open turns as well, but think the flip turn does them better. It's not going to totally revolutionize someone's swim stroke, but is one of a number of things that can (and probably should) be done to help swim better. Sometimes people can have some adaptations and make gains fairly quick, but to really become fast it will take a long time of doing a number of things well to build into a really solid swimmer. Not everything beneficial has an immediate return.

2015-03-24 8:35 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Ridgelake

But are you the exception? I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the top 10% do flip turns. Conversely I would bet that 95% of the people that finish in the bottom 10% don't.

You're probably right that 95% of the top 10% regularly do flip turns because odds are that they swam in high school and/or college.  They are used to doing them.  But if you're an adult onset swimmer and find learning them to be a struggle, again, you can still become a good swimmer and place well in that leg. 

Flip turns are a separate and distinct skill that is not used in open water.  If you want to learn them and do them, great.  They certainly won't hurt. But again, you can be a strong swimmer without them.

I take it you are faster now than the 26:XX - 28:XX oly swims you posted up in 2011 / 2012?  I looked because I wanted to see how fast you were.  You';d be hard pressed to make the top 10% here in the Midwest in a 1500 Oly swim with those times.

I really don't see how there is an argument for not trying to learn to do them to become a better swimmer.  But yeah, don't do them if you don't want to.

If I'm remembering the quoted poster correctly, he had a 2:03 200 as an adult onset swimmer awhile back. Also the Nationals Qualifying times for late 30's would be more appropriate than those tri times though I'm not sure which events. That 200 may have improved since.

With that up there, various numbers like those and other percentages that are being thrown around in both directions aren't necessarily that helpful either. Kind of correlation and causation logic to an extent. Definitely up for people wanting to improve their swim learning to do them. A number of said benefits with the flip turn can be had paying attention to open turns as well, but think the flip turn does them better. It's not going to totally revolutionize someone's swim stroke, but is one of a number of things that can (and probably should) be done to help swim better. Sometimes people can have some adaptations and make gains fairly quick, but to really become fast it will take a long time of doing a number of things well to build into a really solid swimmer. Not everything beneficial has an immediate return.

It's a flip turn vs. open turn thread......everybody gets bloody.

2015-03-24 8:43 PM
in reply to: schaumi

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by schaumi

After swimming for over three decades, I do flip turns without thinking about them.

Here are my tips:

1. Go back in time to when you were 7 years old

2. Join the swim team at your local pool

3. Learn to do flip turns when you're 8-10 years old

4. Know how to do them for your entire life

5. Be faster than 90% of the adult onset swimmers you'll compete against in triathlon when you're an adult


Sorry, but I don't have a website to spam you with.


3b. Develop lifelong scars on each shoulder from pushing off like your coach told you to and hitting the rough bottom of the lane until you finally figured out how to do it without getting hurt.

(adults should push off more gingerly until they "get it")
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