flip turns or open turns?? (Page 4)

I guess it's too much to ask in a debate about flip turns that we at least all agree to use proper contractions: it's, you're, they're. 

using proper contractions doesn't make you a better writer. I can right just fine without them. Learning contractions seems like a waste of time and effort when I could just write without them.

I can win without apostrophes.

maybe, but only at a local level.

I like the trailing ellipses...

Flips turns just look cool.  Isn't that why we are all in triathlon anyway?  That and the cool/expensive toys...

I find this statement a bit puzzling.

Out of curiosity I ran some scenarios through the Best Bike Split website on the Ironman Mont Tremblant course.  In order to go from a 5:40 split down to a 5:20 split, you would have to increase power from 172 watts up to 197 watts, a difference of 25 watts.  Assuming that's done at 70% FTP then you have to increase your FTP by 35 watts to achieve that same 20 minute savings.  That's potentially a HUGE undertaking and definitely falls under the category of "hours upon hours".

I get that you just don't like to swim and I'm totally fine with that as it's you that has to enjoy what you do, I just find that dismissing a 20 minute gain in the water because it would take a lot of time and effort is odd.

No, I'm not.  ;-)  A good fast open turn (think competitive fly or breast), where you stay low in the water, drop your shoulder as you roll away from the wall, and push off hard in a tight streamline, doesn't provide any rest.  It just causes you to fall behind your lane mates, and gives you less rest before the next sendoff.  ;-)

Of course, I know you're not talking about real open turns.  I'm just making the point that open turns don't automatically mean more rest or not working hard.  :-D

 eta:  Even though I'm a proponent of pretty much everyone learning and using flip turns, I also want my athletes to know that turns aren't for resting, and I want them to execute their best turn (open or flip), and push off with some enthusiasm in a tight streamline.

Sorry, don't think it's a very good analogy.

ETA: You could probably just skip swimming altogether with that logic.

I don't/can't do flip turns.  I've tried at various times over the years, but get very disoriented when I flip, come out facing backwards, upside down, etc.  Basically it's a mess and I'm not going to spend the time trying to learn them for now.  That said, there is value to spending more time in the pool.  I have not really gotten faster over the past few years, however when I've upped my time/consistency in the pool I've built up my endurance and stamina, which has in turn led to better race results because I have the ability to race stronger on the bike and run.  Folks sometimes forget how much the swim can take out of them if they are undertrained in the water - so your 1:20 for IM could in fact be a bit faster, but you will come out a lot fresher for the next 10-15 hours.  Swim/run bricks can sometimes be a good guage of how much the swim is actually impacting the rest of your race.

You forgot - it's all about the bike split.  That worth the hours...

That's fair, personally I consider running a necessary evil of triathlon.  

Flip turns didn't "make them win," but training properly did. Flip turns are part of training properly. 

Running drills didn't "make me win" a 5k, but doing them was sure part of it.

This is where a really high percentage of AG triathletes miss the boat! (Dan, I am not picking on you and this is not directed at you personally.  It is intended in a broad, general sense).

I hear it all the time, "The swim is only 10% of my race so I am not going to spend more than 10% of my time training for that little bit of my race day," or something very similar - basically discounting the importance of the swim.  What those triathletes are missing however is that the swim isn't necessarily about the time.  It is about setting yourself up for the rest of the day.  Whether a triathlete is trying to go from 2:00 -> 1:45 per 100 or 1:30 -> 1:15 per 100 is really not that important.  What matters is being able to swim aerobically and efficiently.  You simply are not going to be able to do that swimming a couple of 30-minute workouts per week (or some other ridiculously low volume mandated by 10% of your training time).  Sorry, isn't going to happen.

Along the same lines, the successful, competitive triathletes ALL are doing flip-turns in the pool.  EVERY one of them.  Sorry, you may not like to hear that, but there it is.  Competitive triathletes can SWIM.  They don't beat the water into submission, they are smooth, efficient, and graceful in the water, not to mention fast by triathlon standards (a few are even fast by swimming standards).  Flip-turns just happen to be a part of smooth, efficient and graceful swimming.  Sorry, that is just the way it is.  Look at those that don't do flip-turns.  What trait do almost all of them share?  It isn't smooth, efficient, and graceful swimming, rather they tend to have sub-standard technique and struggle with the swim.

It comes down to this:  Do you want to complete a triathlon or do you want to compete in a triathlon.  The Jeep Cherokee analogy is a wonderful analogy in that the Jeep can definitely complete a triathlon, but it will never compete in a triathlon.

So, continue to train with insufficient volume and continue to discount the value of flip-turns.  You will continue to be anaerobic during your swim and come out of the water baked and often forfeit the opportunity to have a good race day - but, yeah, you may complete your triathlon.  OR, increase the importance of swim training, do what swimmers do to improve (uh oh, the means learning to flip-turn), stay aerobic in the water on race day and compete in your triathlon.

The choice is yours.

Amen.