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2015-03-27 3:07 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by dmiller5

so splits for the 2 hour Olympic.

assume 2 min for transitions

21 min swim

58 min bike

39 min run

Assume the same 2hr Oly athlete does a HIM As per your splits The 21min Oly is 1:24/100m. Add 2sec (at most) over 1900m and it gives a 27 15 min HIM swim To get 58min bike, assume 290 watts with a CRR of .004 and a cda of .3 will give you 58 minutes. Those assume very little wind and flat for a 70kg male. This requires a FTP of about 305watts if you do it at 95% of FTP. This is a solid 4.35 w/kg, which makes sense This means you could do the HIM at 244 watts and at the same cda/crr would give 2h19. (assuming you do it at 80% of FTP) For the run, to do 39min, let’s assume 38min open 10k. That’s a 55 VDOT and HIM run of about 1h30 Add them up 27m15 swim + 2h19 bike + 1h30 run = 4h16ish HIM without transitions Maybe a slightly longer transition, but a 2h Oly is probably close to a 4h20 HIM. A 2hr Oly gets you top 3 at Worlds in the 40-44AG. A 10h IM doesn't even get you a KQ same AG.

well look at 25-29 and you don't sniff podium

Top 3 in 25-29 went under 2h. 4th went just above 2h 3rd went 1h59.14.....not that far

Take a look at US nationals in milwuakee's times, Edmonton was a very hilly and slow course.

Yep.....top 18 were 2 hours or under at USA nationals in 25-29 AG.  There is no comparison to that course and the course in Edmonton. 




People doing both seem 3-4min slower at Edmonton. Fact remains a 2hOly is much harder than a 4h30 HIM and 10h IM


2015-03-27 3:14 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by dmiller5

so splits for the 2 hour Olympic.

assume 2 min for transitions

21 min swim

58 min bike

39 min run

Assume the same 2hr Oly athlete does a HIM As per your splits The 21min Oly is 1:24/100m. Add 2sec (at most) over 1900m and it gives a 27 15 min HIM swim To get 58min bike, assume 290 watts with a CRR of .004 and a cda of .3 will give you 58 minutes. Those assume very little wind and flat for a 70kg male. This requires a FTP of about 305watts if you do it at 95% of FTP. This is a solid 4.35 w/kg, which makes sense This means you could do the HIM at 244 watts and at the same cda/crr would give 2h19. (assuming you do it at 80% of FTP) For the run, to do 39min, let’s assume 38min open 10k. That’s a 55 VDOT and HIM run of about 1h30 Add them up 27m15 swim + 2h19 bike + 1h30 run = 4h16ish HIM without transitions Maybe a slightly longer transition, but a 2h Oly is probably close to a 4h20 HIM. A 2hr Oly gets you top 3 at Worlds in the 40-44AG. A 10h IM doesn't even get you a KQ same AG.

well look at 25-29 and you don't sniff podium

Top 3 in 25-29 went under 2h. 4th went just above 2h 3rd went 1h59.14.....not that far

Take a look at US nationals in milwuakee's times, Edmonton was a very hilly and slow course.

Yep.....top 18 were 2 hours or under at USA nationals in 25-29 AG.  There is no comparison to that course and the course in Edmonton. 

People doing both seem 3-4min slower at Edmonton. Fact remains a 2hOly is much harder than a 4h30 HIM and 10h IM

That could be......but more likely you have to be more genetically gifted for the Oly distance.  For sure you do for the 55-56 minute sprint.   

2015-03-27 3:34 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
Originally posted by dmiller5

Just for fun, which of these do you think is the most difficult.

2:00 Olympic

4:30 Half

sub 10:00 Ironman

 




I think the 2hr Oly is the most difficult for all the reasons listed. For an AG athlete w/o a swimming background, even if having the engine on the bike & run if you don't have the swim, then it won't happen.
2015-03-27 6:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
As a woman, I'm actually thinking the Oly would be most difficult (as in least likely to hit). Of course I'm not thinking about my current 45 year-old self, but if I had gotten into tri back in my swim-run prime, and developed some decent proficiency on the bike, I could see a 10 hour IM being within the realm of reason back then. Some of the pro women go under 9 at Kona, after all; sub-10 in easier conditions would be a good age-grouper or lower-level pro, maybe. But I can't visualize a 2-hour Oly, for me personally. Just never had the speed for it. I'm adding my PB's for (pool) 1500m swim and 10 km run, two minutes total for transitions (okay, maybe if I was a pro they''d be faster) and that leaves 1:02 for the bike. Is the Oly in question draft-legal? Not that it would probably matter in my case!

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-03-27 6:11 PM
2015-03-29 9:29 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by GMAN 19030 None of those would ever be easy but a sub-2:00 Olympic is, IMO, the way more unattainable time. That's just raw speed that's genetically out of reach for most no matter the hard work and dedication.

Agree on the raw speed and genetics.  You could throw in a 54-56 minute sprint for that matter.......there is a HUGE segment of the triathlon population (almost everybody) who could never attain that no matter how much they worked.  Your point about what is actually attainable, no matter the difficulty, is valid.

Jumping back into this conversation...

I'm 45 now so my days of hitting a 9:59 IM or 4:29 HIM have probably passed but, hypothetically speaking, let's say I was now retired and had all the time I wanted to train, rest, and recover, and given the right course and conditions... a sub-10 IM or 4:30 HIM could be theoretically possible.  I have done 1:05 IM swim on less than optimal training and effort so I assume I could get to 1:00 if I really wanted to.  Let's assume an "easier" IM course like IMFL or IMAZ with proper conditions.  I could see me going 4:50 without too much trouble (did 5:00 at IMFL before).  10 minutes of transition time puts me at 6:00.  That leaves 3:59 for the IM marathon.  I have yet to break 4:00 on the IM marathon but did a 4:10 before on, once again, less than optimal training and effort.  So a 9:59 IM would be the easiest of the three to crack.

I might not have the swim and run in me to break 4:30 in a HIM.  Let's say I could get my HIM swim time down to 28-29 minutes.  :29 swim, 2:20 bike, :06 transitions, would leave a sub-1:35 run.

I definitely do not have the swim or run in me to go sub-2:00 in an Oly.

2015-03-29 11:40 AM
in reply to: #5103993

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
2hr oly for sure. Say you split it 21 / 58 / 38 with 3 min for transitions. Those splits are much more daunting than a 4:30 half or 10 full, imo.


2015-03-29 11:55 AM
in reply to: 5stones

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

Originally posted by 5stones
I think the 2hr Oly is the most difficult for all the reasons listed. For an AG athlete w/o a swimming background, even if having the engine on the bike & run if you don't have the swim, then it won't happen.

Totally agree. Strong swim, excellent transitions, and near perfect race execution are needed for 2hr Oly. There is just no time to recover from any issues.

2015-03-29 1:30 PM
in reply to: Snaaijer

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

Originally posted by Snaaijer 2hr oly for sure. Say you split it 21 / 58 / 38 with 3 min for transitions. Those splits are much more daunting than a 4:30 half or 10 full, imo.

Triathlon is such a funny sport.  The kids I'm around look at a 2 hour Oly, which they haven't really reached out for yet (because their couches would have a fit), as something not that hard to do.  They all have sub 17 swims for 1500 in a pool, 58 minutes on the bike is pretty avg., and they have open 10K's of 32-35 minutes.  They run sprints in 55-58 minutes and have reached an age where they can't wait to get turned loose on an Oly race on a fast course.  Then you ask them about a 4:15 - 4:30 HIM or a sub 10 IM and almost to a person they all go, "oh man, I don't know."  LOL  

All of those times are smoking fast in my book.....and each would seem to require not only a different set of training and skill but, and this is no small thing, a different mind set as well.  My hat's off to anyone who can hit any of those benchmarks.

2015-03-29 1:30 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
Pretty proud to have a course PB of 2.10 for Edmonton. Longish run to T1, Hills on the bike and the old run course on the not so shady pavement plus mid July race date and a 10 am start.
2015-03-29 4:43 PM
in reply to: Snaaijer

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
So, could we switch this around to say what would be equivalents? Say, using a 10 hr IM as the standard for comparison? With my 10 months of experience (that's like three dog years) I'd go with:

IM: 10:00
HIM: 4:50
Oly: 2:20
Sprint: 1:10
2015-03-29 4:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
Originally posted by 3mar

So, could we switch this around to say what would be equivalents? Say, using a 10 hr IM as the standard for comparison? With my 10 months of experience (that's like three dog years) I'd go with:

IM: 10:00
HIM: 4:50
Oly: 2:20
Sprint: 1:10


The rule of thumb for HIM to IM is 2x HIM + 1h, therefore 4h30HIM = 10h IM.

A 4h30 HIM is much faster than a 2:20 Oly.

These comparisons don't work well because a weak swimmer, great biker will do much better on a HIM
A good swimmer/runner ,weak biker can do better on an Oly.


FYI, for a balanced athlete, a 2h Oly is about a 4h20 HIM. example Helle Frederikson

Edited by marcag 2015-03-29 4:54 PM


2015-03-29 5:16 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

So marc....you're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to triathlon and it looks to me that you are on the money, or very close, most of the time.  I saw over on the other board a discussion about the 9 minute mark for a total between a 500 yard swim and a mile run.  There was a poster or two who said that the 9 minute mark was a pretty good benchmark for Olympic potential.  Do you agree?   I thought that there was quite a bit of leeway on either end that could derail being competitive on the very top end.  For example, someone who could go 4:30 in the swim but only hit 4:30 in the run, compared to someone who could hit 5:00 in the swim and 4 minutes for a mile.  Your thoughts?  Which of those two would you give the nod to for future potential?

2015-03-29 6:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
Originally posted by Left Brain

So marc....you're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to triathlon and it looks to me that you are on the money, or very close, most of the time.  I saw over on the other board a discussion about the 9 minute mark for a total between a 500 yard swim and a mile run.  There was a poster or two who said that the 9 minute mark was a pretty good benchmark for Olympic potential.  Do you agree?   I thought that there was quite a bit of leeway on either end that could derail being competitive on the very top end.  For example, someone who could go 4:30 in the swim but only hit 4:30 in the run, compared to someone who could hit 5:00 in the swim and 4 minutes for a mile.  Your thoughts?  Which of those two would you give the nod to for future potential?





I bet that if you took all the athletes that "just qualify", maybe the sum of the two is close 9min.
But I don't believe that having a 9min total means you will be successful

The guy with the 4:15 swim and 4:45 run will be first out of the water, waiting for everyone and dropped on the run.

The guy with the 5:00 swim and 4:00 run will be biking by himself, maybe even lapped out :-)

Sounds like a pretty even split is required, maybe a few seconds towards the run

Gomez must be a 4:22 swim and a 4:03 mile ? I would be curious to see Mola's split.




Edited by marcag 2015-03-29 6:37 PM
2015-03-29 6:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

So marc....you're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to triathlon and it looks to me that you are on the money, or very close, most of the time.  I saw over on the other board a discussion about the 9 minute mark for a total between a 500 yard swim and a mile run.  There was a poster or two who said that the 9 minute mark was a pretty good benchmark for Olympic potential.  Do you agree?   I thought that there was quite a bit of leeway on either end that could derail being competitive on the very top end.  For example, someone who could go 4:30 in the swim but only hit 4:30 in the run, compared to someone who could hit 5:00 in the swim and 4 minutes for a mile.  Your thoughts?  Which of those two would you give the nod to for future potential?

I bet that if you took all the athletes that "just qualify", maybe the sum of the two is close 9min. But I don't believe that having a 9min total means you will be successful The guy with the 4:15 swim and 4:45 run will be first out of the water, waiting for everyone and dropped on the run. The guy with the 5:00 swim and 4:00 run will be biking by himself, maybe even lapped out :-) Sounds like a pretty even split is required, maybe a few seconds towards the run Gomez must be a 4:22 swim and a 4:07 mile ? I would be curious to see Mola's split.

Yeah, maybe the idea was solely for "potential", because I think 9:00 is too generous as well.  I would also like to see the mile and 500 times from some top athletes.  I would also bend toward the run.

2015-03-29 6:45 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

So marc....you're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to triathlon and it looks to me that you are on the money, or very close, most of the time.  I saw over on the other board a discussion about the 9 minute mark for a total between a 500 yard swim and a mile run.  There was a poster or two who said that the 9 minute mark was a pretty good benchmark for Olympic potential.  Do you agree?   I thought that there was quite a bit of leeway on either end that could derail being competitive on the very top end.  For example, someone who could go 4:30 in the swim but only hit 4:30 in the run, compared to someone who could hit 5:00 in the swim and 4 minutes for a mile.  Your thoughts?  Which of those two would you give the nod to for future potential?

I bet that if you took all the athletes that "just qualify", maybe the sum of the two is close 9min. But I don't believe that having a 9min total means you will be successful The guy with the 4:15 swim and 4:45 run will be first out of the water, waiting for everyone and dropped on the run. The guy with the 5:00 swim and 4:00 run will be biking by himself, maybe even lapped out :-) Sounds like a pretty even split is required, maybe a few seconds towards the run Gomez must be a 4:22 swim and a 4:07 mile ? I would be curious to see Mola's split.

Yeah, maybe the idea was solely for "potential", because I think 9:00 is too generous as well.  I would also like to see the mile and 500 times from some top athletes.  I would also bend toward the run.




I corrected my Gomez time to 4:02 for the run, based on Alistair and Johnny's 10k and 5k open times, and Gomez is close to their run
During the Auckland race they said he swam a 15:20 1500m (I think) so taking some of the NCAA times, that's how I came to 4:22 500m

2015-03-29 6:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

So marc....you're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to triathlon and it looks to me that you are on the money, or very close, most of the time.  I saw over on the other board a discussion about the 9 minute mark for a total between a 500 yard swim and a mile run.  There was a poster or two who said that the 9 minute mark was a pretty good benchmark for Olympic potential.  Do you agree?   I thought that there was quite a bit of leeway on either end that could derail being competitive on the very top end.  For example, someone who could go 4:30 in the swim but only hit 4:30 in the run, compared to someone who could hit 5:00 in the swim and 4 minutes for a mile.  Your thoughts?  Which of those two would you give the nod to for future potential?

I bet that if you took all the athletes that "just qualify", maybe the sum of the two is close 9min. But I don't believe that having a 9min total means you will be successful The guy with the 4:15 swim and 4:45 run will be first out of the water, waiting for everyone and dropped on the run. The guy with the 5:00 swim and 4:00 run will be biking by himself, maybe even lapped out :-) Sounds like a pretty even split is required, maybe a few seconds towards the run Gomez must be a 4:22 swim and a 4:07 mile ? I would be curious to see Mola's split.

Yeah, maybe the idea was solely for "potential", because I think 9:00 is too generous as well.  I would also like to see the mile and 500 times from some top athletes.  I would also bend toward the run.

I corrected my Gomez time to 4:02 for the run, based on Alistair and Johnny's 10k and 5k open times, and Gomez is close to their run During the Auckland race they said he swam a 15:20 1500m (I think) so taking some of the NCAA times, that's how I came to 4:22 500m

He can run a 4:02 mile?  How'd you get that?  (not that I don't believe it, just wondering)  You think Brownlee's can hit 4:02?  Or have they?

 



2015-03-29 6:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

So marc....you're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to triathlon and it looks to me that you are on the money, or very close, most of the time.  I saw over on the other board a discussion about the 9 minute mark for a total between a 500 yard swim and a mile run.  There was a poster or two who said that the 9 minute mark was a pretty good benchmark for Olympic potential.  Do you agree?   I thought that there was quite a bit of leeway on either end that could derail being competitive on the very top end.  For example, someone who could go 4:30 in the swim but only hit 4:30 in the run, compared to someone who could hit 5:00 in the swim and 4 minutes for a mile.  Your thoughts?  Which of those two would you give the nod to for future potential?

I bet that if you took all the athletes that "just qualify", maybe the sum of the two is close 9min. But I don't believe that having a 9min total means you will be successful The guy with the 4:15 swim and 4:45 run will be first out of the water, waiting for everyone and dropped on the run. The guy with the 5:00 swim and 4:00 run will be biking by himself, maybe even lapped out :-) Sounds like a pretty even split is required, maybe a few seconds towards the run Gomez must be a 4:22 swim and a 4:07 mile ? I would be curious to see Mola's split.

Yeah, maybe the idea was solely for "potential", because I think 9:00 is too generous as well.  I would also like to see the mile and 500 times from some top athletes.  I would also bend toward the run.

I corrected my Gomez time to 4:02 for the run, based on Alistair and Johnny's 10k and 5k open times, and Gomez is close to their run During the Auckland race they said he swam a 15:20 1500m (I think) so taking some of the NCAA times, that's how I came to 4:22 500m

He can run a 4:02 mile?  How'd you get that?  (not that I don't believe it, just wondering)  You think Brownlee's can hit 4:02?  Or have they?

 




Alistair has run a 28:32 10km which would be equivalent to a 3:58 mile by VDOT
Jonathan ran a 14:00 5km which would be equivalent to a 4:03

Edited by marcag 2015-03-29 7:02 PM
2015-03-29 7:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

So marc....you're obviously a number cruncher when it comes to triathlon and it looks to me that you are on the money, or very close, most of the time.  I saw over on the other board a discussion about the 9 minute mark for a total between a 500 yard swim and a mile run.  There was a poster or two who said that the 9 minute mark was a pretty good benchmark for Olympic potential.  Do you agree?   I thought that there was quite a bit of leeway on either end that could derail being competitive on the very top end.  For example, someone who could go 4:30 in the swim but only hit 4:30 in the run, compared to someone who could hit 5:00 in the swim and 4 minutes for a mile.  Your thoughts?  Which of those two would you give the nod to for future potential?

I bet that if you took all the athletes that "just qualify", maybe the sum of the two is close 9min. But I don't believe that having a 9min total means you will be successful The guy with the 4:15 swim and 4:45 run will be first out of the water, waiting for everyone and dropped on the run. The guy with the 5:00 swim and 4:00 run will be biking by himself, maybe even lapped out :-) Sounds like a pretty even split is required, maybe a few seconds towards the run Gomez must be a 4:22 swim and a 4:07 mile ? I would be curious to see Mola's split.

Yeah, maybe the idea was solely for "potential", because I think 9:00 is too generous as well.  I would also like to see the mile and 500 times from some top athletes.  I would also bend toward the run.

I corrected my Gomez time to 4:02 for the run, based on Alistair and Johnny's 10k and 5k open times, and Gomez is close to their run During the Auckland race they said he swam a 15:20 1500m (I think) so taking some of the NCAA times, that's how I came to 4:22 500m

He can run a 4:02 mile?  How'd you get that?  (not that I don't believe it, just wondering)  You think Brownlee's can hit 4:02?  Or have they?

 

Alistair has run a 28:32 10km which would be equivalent to a 3:58 mile by VDOT Jonathan ran a 14:00 5km which would be equivalent to a 4:03

Wow!!

2015-03-29 7:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

So, a thought I just had....does VDOT, or something like Mcmillan, work backward? 

I know people who run a 14:XX 5K that can't run a 4:20 mile.  It seems weird to me, but it's actual times.

2015-03-29 7:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
Originally posted by Left Brain

So, a thought I just had....does VDOT, or something like Mcmillan, work backward? 

I know people who run a 14:XX 5K that can't run a 4:20 mile.  It seems weird to me, but it's actual times.




There are a few parameters that make up the VDOT tables. If your numbers don't line up, it's a sign that a specific parameter needs work.

You can also calculate a theoritical VO2max required to run 4min/mile and there is little doubt Alister or Javier have it.






Edited by marcag 2015-03-29 7:39 PM
2015-03-29 7:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
VDOT doesn't necessarily go all the way backward. I've looked at the tables and my PB's. While the times for 5 km thru marathon are all pretty consistent, things fall off slightly at 3K and from there are way off (much faster) at 800, 1500, and mile. It's probably both a reflection of different fast/slow twitch requirements for the shorter distances, training-specific adaptations, and race experience. (Those tables assume you can burn all your matches effectively at each distance; one could most likely do a more optimal performance at a distance one was familiar with.) There's also the matter of VO2 max vs. % you can hold for a period of time. Some elites have fairly unremarkable VO2 max (well, compared to other elites) but can hold a high % of max for a long time. Probably a combo of their physiology and training, and probably more likely with long-distance specialists. Would be really curious to see what Rinny, for example, can do for an open marathon, 10 km, and mile.

I said 10 hr. would have been easier for me because when I add PB's for marathon and the swim (had to extrapolate for that), plus transitions, it leaves me over six hours on the bike, which is pretty common for strong AG women. Not that I could actually do all those PB's within an IM, but imagining I was a pro and had more time to train, maybe closer as my PB's would be faster? Still thinking if you looked at times and places in ITU/IM, for women, sub-2 is more elite than sub-10.

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-03-29 8:02 PM


2015-03-29 7:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Left Brain

So, a thought I just had....does VDOT, or something like Mcmillan, work backward? 

I know people who run a 14:XX 5K that can't run a 4:20 mile.  It seems weird to me, but it's actual times.

There are a few parameters that make up the VDOT tables. If your numbers don't line up, it's a sign that a specific parameter needs work. You can also calculate a theoritical VO2max required to run 4min/mile and there is little doubt Alister or Javier have it.

What are the parameters?  Now I'm curious.

2015-03-29 8:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

Originally posted by Hot Runner VDOT doesn't necessarily go all the way backward. I've looked at the tables and my PB's. While the times for 5 km thru marathon are all pretty consistent, things fall off slightly at 3K and from there are way off (much faster) at 800, 1500, and mile. It's probably both a reflection of different fast/slow twitch requirements for the shorter distances, training-specific adaptations, and race experience. (Those tables assume you can burn all your matches effectively at each distance; one could most likely do a more optimal performance at a distance one was familiar with.) There's also the matter of VO2 max vs. % you can hold for a period of time. Some elites have fairly unremarkable VO2 max (well, compared to other elites) but can hold a high % of max for a long time. Probably a combo of their physiology and training, and probably more likely with long-distance specialists. Would be really curious to see what Rinny, for example, can do for an open marathon, 10 km, and mile.

That's what I was wondering........at some point fast twitch/slow twitch have to come into play, and surely training adaptations do.  I get to be around some really fast athletes in the 800 through 5K....and even at those distances there is some sort of disconnect there. 

2015-03-29 8:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult

HAHAHAHAHA!!  I was just looking at a thread on Let's Run where they were discussing what they thought Rudisha (800M world record holder) could run a 5K in.  Someone had him at 12:56.......someone else had him at just under 17:00.  There were no shortage of opinions in between.  Crazy.  I went there for help on the subject.

2015-03-30 4:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Most Difficult
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Hot Runner VDOT doesn't necessarily go all the way backward. I've looked at the tables and my PB's. While the times for 5 km thru marathon are all pretty consistent, things fall off slightly at 3K and from there are way off (much faster) at 800, 1500, and mile. It's probably both a reflection of different fast/slow twitch requirements for the shorter distances, training-specific adaptations, and race experience. (Those tables assume you can burn all your matches effectively at each distance; one could most likely do a more optimal performance at a distance one was familiar with.) There's also the matter of VO2 max vs. % you can hold for a period of time. Some elites have fairly unremarkable VO2 max (well, compared to other elites) but can hold a high % of max for a long time. Probably a combo of their physiology and training, and probably more likely with long-distance specialists. Would be really curious to see what Rinny, for example, can do for an open marathon, 10 km, and mile.

That's what I was wondering........at some point fast twitch/slow twitch have to come into play, and surely training adaptations do.  I get to be around some really fast athletes in the 800 through 5K....and even at those distances there is some sort of disconnect there. 




Plug Gwen Jorgensen and Alan Webb's numbers in an you will see they line up pretty well from the mile to 5k and 10k
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