General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2015-07-19 11:40 AM


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
I apologize if I'm short cutting the coaching section of this site but am curious if anyone else does something similar and can share their knowledge or opinions.

This is my schedule:

lr=long run sr=HIT short run, ls=long swim, ss=HIT short swim, wnl=weights no legs, wwl=weights with legs

S M Tus Wed T Fri Sat
ls lr wnl sr/sw lr wwl Off

I'm supposed to go for a good long swim today, but my legs are sore to the touch! Unfortunately I haven't done squats in a few weeks.

In my previous thread I mentioned my shoulder giving me pain during my run shortly after I started a swimming routine. I am still scheduling to meet with a coach for tips, but I believe my body was still in conditioning because I no longer get the shoulder pain. So there might be hope for any starting off experiencing new pains! I'm hoping my legs can do the same, but past experience shows that running and squats need to be carefully planned to complement instead of interfere.

I'm just curious, if by chance my legs are still recovering 2 days after squats, which is better? swimming or running, endurance or HIT?
or perhaps I should drop the weight on my squats and perform them more as an endurance exercise while training for a race?

Thanks


2015-07-19 11:48 AM
in reply to: runtim23


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
Might notice, I don't have any biking scheduled! How critical is this for sprints and olys?
I usually do my biking recreationally 1-2 xs a month on mountain bike trails for a good 4 hours at a time.

I did check the free plans, but didn't like the minutes used for running (I go by miles) nor the lack of weight lifting exercises integrated. So this is what I've been working with.
2015-07-19 1:46 PM
in reply to: runtim23

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs

What are your goals?

What are the objectives of your strength program?

 

 

2015-07-19 6:41 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
My goal is to complete a triathlon with reasonable performance. I can pay for a sprint or olympic but am over training for a sprint in hopes of becoming ready for the olympic within a month. I been in weight training since my freshman year of high school, but this has been more of a "corrective" measure.
I naturally excel in long distance endurance activities, but like to minimize muscle loss, so use some HIT training on the weights. Of course the trainers at the gym, tell me to limit my cardio, but my passion is towards racing and this takes priority. At the same time, I guess I'm looking to add balance since I favor and excel at cardio.
2015-07-19 6:53 PM
in reply to: runtim23

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs

Define  "excel at long distance endurance events".

2015-07-19 8:41 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
I'm more slow twitch. I struggle to throw weight, but catch the sprinters after the first lap.

If you're asking if what I'm trying to achieve is feasible, I currently have a 45 min 10k, and 19 min 5k. On my long days I run 8-10 miles and try to swim a mile (but struggle). Also, note I said activities, not events. I'm no Boston qualifier!


2015-07-19 9:53 PM
in reply to: runtim23

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs

Originally posted by runtim23 I'm more slow twitch. I struggle to throw weight, but catch the sprinters after the first lap. If you're asking if what I'm trying to achieve is feasible, I currently have a 45 min 10k, and 19 min 5k. On my long days I run 8-10 miles and try to swim a mile (but struggle). Also, note I said activities, not events. I'm no Boston qualifier!

OK, but if you try to race an Oly, or a Sprint for that matter, with no bike training your runs aren't going to be anywhere near those times.  Bike fitness as a means to a fast-ish triathlon run is lost on most people who start out in triathlon.  You'd be better served to forget the weights and get on your bike more......much better served.

2015-07-19 11:44 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
It's always the same story. Gym trainers want me to cut back on my running and racers suggest I drop the weights.

I might rotate weeks, and replace a long run with a bike ride, or swap my Sun Mon around and reduce my non-leg
weight lifting day to include a 30 minute bike ride and only 30 minutes of weights.

I've been lifting long enough to know how my body responds. I need weights at least twice a week or it's wasted effort.
Especially with this much cardio.

Thanks for sharing your opinion and I'll try to work something in.
2015-07-20 12:01 AM
in reply to: runtim23

User image


282
100100252525
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs

"I'm just curious, if by chance my legs are still recovering 2 days after squats, which is better? swimming or running, endurance or HIT?" 

Road biking.

"or perhaps I should drop the weight on my squats and perform them more as an endurance exercise while training for a race?"

I say drop the weight to zero and get on your road bike instead.

"I currently have a 45 min 10k, and 19 min 5k."

A 19 minute 5k is roughly equivalent to a 39:30 10k, so Just based on those 2 PRs I'd say you are actually much better at short distance than endurance events. (also the fact that you struggle to swim a mile).  But anyways I think just about everyone will say the same thing: If your goal is to have your best triathlon result then you would be much better off biking than weight training.    ...It all depends what your personal goals are though.

2015-07-20 1:02 AM
in reply to: runtim23

User image

Extreme Veteran
1332
100010010010025
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
I wouldn't say you have to drop the weights, in fact they can help an athlete be stronger and more resilient, but having virtually zero bike training for triathlon, when you claim to have racing triathlon as a priority doesn't quite seem to follow.

As an experienced lifter, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to get in some quality bike training in while lifting 2 days a week, and recovering from training is a great way to get in some of the long slow stuff, but I am also a big fan of getting in some really good threshold efforts.

There is a weekly 10 mile time trial I love to do here, throw in some intervals, some longer stuff, and you have a great start for a biking program.

Look into Alex Viada, I'm a fan of his approach to combining strength training and endurance training.

His programming seems to consist of doing the really heavy weights and high intensity intervals earlier in the week, and then taking the slightly lower weight higher volume, and lower intensity longer endurance training later in the week, and cycles his training that way.

You might not become a world class pro triathlete, but I think he's found a balance many people would be happy with :p

https://evidencemag.com/ironman-bodybuilder
2015-07-20 5:34 AM
in reply to: runtim23

User image

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
There are many good reasons to include strength training within a program however, it should be in addition to swim/bike/run not in lieu of. A few random bikes does not equal training for a race. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to finish so it really depends on your goals.

Also, what specifically do you mean by HIT - it means many things to many people and depending on what you mean, may be completely appropriate or a recipe for disaster.

Shane


2015-07-20 8:39 AM
in reply to: 0


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
Thanks for sharing Extreme Veteran. Looks like a good podcast and will give it a listen.

I believe genetics are the ultimate rules and determine what you can and cannot do, but everyone can improve and work with what they've been given.

From my experience, and probably due to age since my early 20's didn't require quite as much, I need to run at least every 4 days or it makes the upward journey painful. I respond best to full body workouts at least 2 times a week, but am experimenting with squats to see if I can do once a week.

By HIT in the gym I mean higher weight with less reps. I have found a full body workout at 10 reps 60%,8 reps 70%,6 reps 80% of my maxes with occasional burnouts and negatives, give me the best results.

My HIT runs, could be anything between 1 - 4 miles or fartleks, but I usually lean towards 3-4 during training, and 1-2 while not. Swimming is new to me and consists of apx. 2-4 sets of 300 yards.

I'm not saying this is best for everyone, or even myself, but so far this is the recipe I have found where I can still improve in both respects with the least amount of pain.

Biking has always been recreation and I have never used it for training. Never watched my diet either. Hard training makes me crave high protein and healthy stuff anyway. Now, I'm just wondering the best way to manage this without quitting my day job or moving in with the dog.

I will even change the content of my idle readings to this stuff now to see if I happen to learn something.

Edited by runtim23 2015-07-20 8:59 AM
2015-07-20 8:45 AM
in reply to: runtim23

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs

Originally posted by runtim23 It's always the same story. Gym trainers want me to cut back on my running and racers suggest I drop the weights. I might rotate weeks, and replace a long run with a bike ride, or swap my Sun Mon around and reduce my non-leg weight lifting day to include a 30 minute bike ride and only 30 minutes of weights. I've been lifting long enough to know how my body responds. I need weights at least twice a week or it's wasted effort. Especially with this much cardio. Thanks for sharing your opinion and I'll try to work something in.

That's why I asked about your goals.  Either, or neither, can be the right answer depending on what you're trying to achieve.  Most personal trainers are completely clueless about how to train for endurance sports, and many endurance athletes don't understand the value of a well designed strength program and it's place in a triathlete's annual training plan.

Based on the info you've provided regarding your goal to "complete a triathlon with reasonable performance", you definitely need to bike a lot more.  2 times per week at a minimum to get you across the line of a sprint with a smile on your face.  3 times per week at a minimum to realize a shred of your potential.  Since every training session can have an impact on the sessions that follow in the near future, you should probably consider eliminating your traditional strength training leg days completely for the time being.  What you describe regarding days of recovery will likely have a negative impact on your ability to train for biking and running.

Shane's question about HIIT training is important too.  As he mentioned, the right type in the right doses can help running performance, and the wrong type or too large of doses can be a disaster.

Also, what do you mean when you say that you "need weights at least twice a week or it's wasted effort.  Especially with this much cardio"?  It's true that it takes about 3-4 sessions per week to improve fitness at a decent rate, so that's not what I'm asking.  I'm asking what it is that you're trying to achieve?  If it's that you're afraid you'll waste muscle away from too much cardio and not enough strength training, that may be more of a nutrition issue rather than training issue, though your body composition will change a bit regardless based on the objectives you're training for.  (endurance performance, strength, or aesthetics)  Form follows function.

 

2015-07-20 8:55 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs

Originally posted by runtim23 Thanks for sharing Extreme Veteran. Looks like a good podcast and will give it a listen. I believe genetics are the ultimate rules and determine what you can and cannot do, but everyone can improve and work with what they've been given. From my experience, and probably due to age since my early 20's didn't require quite as much, I need to run at least every 4 days or it makes the upward journey painful. I respond best to full body workouts at least 2 times a week, but am experimenting with squats to see if I can do once a week. By HIT in the gym I mean higher weight with less reps. I have found a full body workout at 10 reps 60%,8 reps 70%,6 reps 80% of my maxes with occasional burnouts and negatives, give me the best results. My HIT runs, could be anything between 1 - 4 miles or fartleks, but I usually lean towards 3-4 during training, and 1-2 while not. Swimming is new to me and consists of apx. 4 sets of 300 yards. I'm not saying this is best for everyone, or even myself, but so far this is the recipe I have found where I can still improve in both respects with the least amount of pain. Biking has always been recreation and I have never used it for training. Never watched my diet either. Hard training makes me crave high protein and healthy stuff anyway. Now, I'm just wondering the best way to manage this without quitting my day job or moving in with the dog. I will even change the content of my idle readings to this stuff now to see if I happen to learn something.

 

That's not HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training).  That's a program designed for strength and hypertrophy (size gains), but it will only do that if you're eating enough to build muscle.

HIIT is shorter intervals (typically anywhere from 20 seconds to as long at 60 seconds with varying rest periods depending on the objective of the session).  It frequently consists of plyometric-type exercises that can build explosive power, but it can also be low impact.  Either way, the other  primary objectives are usually to burn a lot of calories in a short period of time to aid in fat loss or improve anaerobic capacity.

ETA:  BTW, the strength training you're describing that you're doing currently won't provide significant performance improvements to endurance swimming, biking, or running.  Their limiters are primarily biochemical (how our bodies provide energy to the muscles), not biomechanical (the size and strength of those muscles).  It's like having a car with a big engine.  If you have to do a 500 mile race without refueling, doing work on the engine to make it more powerful won't help you at all.  Instead, you'd install a bigger fuel tank and make sure the fuel lines are big enough to provide enough fuel to get the full benefit of the big engine.

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2015-07-20 9:02 AM
2015-07-20 10:43 AM
in reply to: 0

User image


812
500100100100
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
Before starting triathlon (last October) I lifted weights and played basketball. I had hoped to be able to continue with the weights while S/B/R as much as I can. Through repeated attempts, I cannot yet do squats and deadlifts with any regularity while continuing to build my weekly run/bike mileage. My knees just can't handle it.


My hope is that once I've built my fitness up and have a much larger base to work with I'll be able to start lifting again. But for now it's most important that I'm able to continue to build my weekly mileage.


edit: I still do some upper body weights a couple of times a week, but that's just out of pure vanity.


Edited by Jet Black 2015-07-20 10:44 AM
2015-07-20 9:15 PM
in reply to: 0


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
Thanks for taking time on your posts TriMyBest.

I'm asking what it is that you're trying to achieve? If it's that you're afraid you'll waste muscle away from too much cardio and not enough strength training


You nailed it. When I train for races I lose significant weight even though I demolish the pantry and fridge like a cyclone.
While not training, I make some muscle gains, and don't like to throw all my hard work away. I already know the transformation has begun. Clothes are getting loose, and legs are getting disproportionately skinny again but working my back and legs with weights is important to me for back pain and keeping my upper and lower balanced.

I suspect adding in some hard cycling with hills or higher rep exercises might work.

As far as the HIT confusion, I read a book on HIT a long time ago while trying to gain muscle. Following its plan to work each muscle group once a week did not work well for me, so I applied some of its principles to my old routine. I don't recall the word plyometrics, but I think slow negative motions and explosive positive motions are tapping into some of that? Concentric and eccentric are the words? I also made sure to keep the weight higher and reps lower. No 20 reps first set etc.

I never started including the HIT term to my cardio, until someone referred to them as my high intensity training days, so tagged it on. It looks like HIIT is different. I guess this describes the occasional fartleks I use.

I can try adjusting my gym exercises to better support my triathlon and see if I'm happy with it. If my back pain acts up and I continue to whittle down I'll just accept it for what it is and go back to what has worked best acknowledging sacrifices are what make me happy.

Do you have any good resources for gym exercises? Lower weight a little, raise reps, and focus on fluid motions and muscles used? Maybe use both my bike, and gym bike once a week each?

Edited by runtim23 2015-07-20 9:16 PM


2015-07-21 11:35 AM
in reply to: runtim23

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs

Originally posted by runtim23 Thanks for taking time on your posts TriMyBest.
I'm asking what it is that you're trying to achieve? If it's that you're afraid you'll waste muscle away from too much cardio and not enough strength training
You nailed it. When I train for races I lose significant weight even though I demolish the pantry and fridge like a cyclone. While not training, I make some muscle gains, and don't like to throw all my hard work away. I already know the transformation has begun. Clothes are getting loose, and legs are getting disproportionately skinny again but working my back and legs with weights is important to me for back pain and keeping my upper and lower balanced. I suspect adding in some hard cycling with hills or higher rep exercises might work. As far as the HIT confusion, I read a book on HIT a long time ago while trying to gain muscle. Following its plan to work each muscle group once a week did not work well for me, so I applied some of its principles to my old routine. I don't recall the word plyometrics, but I think slow negative motions and explosive positive motions are tapping into some of that? Concentric and eccentric are the words? I also made sure to keep the weight higher and reps lower. No 20 reps first set etc. I never started including the HIT term to my cardio, until someone referred to them as my high intensity training days, so tagged it on. It looks like HIIT is different. I guess this describes the occasional fartleks I use. I can try adjusting my gym exercises to better support my triathlon and see if I'm happy with it. If my back pain acts up and I continue to whittle down I'll just accept it for what it is and go back to what has worked best acknowledging sacrifices are what make me happy. Do you have any good resources for gym exercises? Lower weight a little, raise reps, and focus on fluid motions and muscles used? Maybe use both my bike, and gym bike once a week each?

This is what plyometric exercises are.

I don't recommend them for everyone, because if done incorrectly, at best they won't provide the benefits they should, or at worst they can increase injury risk drastically.  Here's a little explanation why.

There are many good resources for strength exercises (but not as many as there are bad ones    ).  Other than providing some videos for technique, for some common exercises, it's not possible to provide a list of "good exercises".  What's good for you may be bad for someone else, and what is good for them may be bad for you.  It depends on many factors, including your age, gender, goals, and health and injury history, just to name a few. 

 

2015-07-21 1:27 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs

This is what plyometric exercises are.

I don't recommend them for everyone, because if done incorrectly, at best they won't provide the benefits they should, or at worst they can increase injury risk drastically.  Here's a little explanation why.

There are many good resources for strength exercises (but not as many as there are bad ones    ).  Other than providing some videos for technique, for some common exercises, it's not possible to provide a list of "good exercises".  What's good for you may be bad for someone else, and what is good for them may be bad for you.  It depends on many factors, including your age, gender, goals, and health and injury history, just to name a few. 

 




Thanks again! I agree everyone is different, but at the same time we're not talking about the genetic difference between homosapien and platypus here.

There are similarities, but true, my cigarette smoking friend who loves swimming and running but never lifts, can still out run and lift me. Must be something goofy going on with him. The mild back pain has been diagnosed as muscular in nature so a PT gave me exercise recommendations. Luckily, I have no significant injuries. Just sprained ankles and pulled muscles but who hasn't had those?

I'll finish the podcast dfquigley shared, find a coach, continue reading. I'm going to first trade some running and weights for biking before I change my remaining gym routine and tweak it from there.

Thanks!
2015-07-22 7:15 AM
in reply to: runtim23


319
100100100
Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs
Very cool guys/gals. Just saw some strength exercises in the training plans. Not sure how I overlooked this on my first browse.
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Weight Lifting and Training Around Legs Rss Feed  
RELATED POSTS

Run First then Lift weights vs Lift Weights first then run

Started by fireplug30
Views: 2629 Posts: 15

2011-09-30 8:24 AM xine2kgts

Training and leg lifting

Started by Taffle
Views: 1274 Posts: 2

2009-02-12 2:16 PM wgraves7582

Daily Weight Lifting and Triathlon Training

Started by dangerousdavez
Views: 6407 Posts: 12

2007-01-25 2:18 PM dibujob

Aerobic Base training and lifting weights???

Started by sham3253
Views: 2980 Posts: 6

2006-12-22 9:18 AM sham3253

Off-season weight lifting, periodized training

Started by SunnyS
Views: 1687 Posts: 9

2005-10-14 9:33 AM SunnyS
RELATED ARTICLES
date : June 22, 2006
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Seated Bicep Curl-Incline Bench, Dumbbell strength exercise instruction with picture and video.
 
date : June 22, 2006
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Seated Biceps Curl - Dumbbell strength exercise instruction with picture and video.
date : June 21, 2006
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Seated Crunch-Leg Pull-In strength exercise instruction with picture and video.
 
date : June 21, 2006
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Standing Calf Raises strength exercise instruction with picture and video.
date : June 21, 2006
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Standing Lunges strength exercise instruction with picture and video.
 
date : June 21, 2006
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Bicep Curl-Machine Leg Extension-Machine strength exercise instruction with picture and video.
date : June 21, 2006
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Leg Extension-Machine strength exercise instruction with picture and video.
 
date : November 28, 2004
author : Glenn
comments : 0
Most of us have hectic personal and work schedules. In fact, to fit in our training it is often a daily achievement!