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2015-09-12 1:19 PM
in reply to: jckcrlln

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Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
Originally posted by jckcrlln



And to answer your question earlier. too few strokes will make you lose momentum. It cost energy to overcome inertia to regain speed.


So, if I read you correctly, you'd increase efficiency by increasing stroke rate......right?


2015-09-12 1:33 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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22

Ann Arbor, Michigan
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
You are still going to find me resistant to the blanket statement, "if you increase stroke rate you will increase efficiency" because it depends on where you are losing your efficiency. if you are taking 15 strokes per length and over-gliding to do it, then YES. but if you are not over gliding then NO. As long as you maintain steady power through your cycle then increasing stroke rate increases speed and not efficiency.
2015-09-12 1:35 PM
in reply to: 0

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Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
I'm not trying to make anyone make any blanket statement.

If you read the original post, it's about ME. I'm asking specifically about ME. I'm, asking if it's possible.

Edited by nc452010 2015-09-12 1:35 PM
2015-09-12 2:19 PM
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22

Ann Arbor, Michigan
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
"Is it possible it will set me back to experiment with increasing my stroke rate? "

Im sorry. I have not seen your stroke therefore I cannot give a more specific statement. If you are over gliding and losing speed between strokes then increasing your stroke rate will be beneficial. I have been resistant because typically novice swimmers need to extend their stroke and lengthen their pull. which will have the effect of slowing their stroke rate but increase their efficiency and speed. I just don't want you to chop at the water hoping it will help.

Edited by jckcrlln 2015-09-12 2:28 PM
2015-09-12 3:42 PM
in reply to: jckcrlln

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Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
I appreciate that. I'm hoping it will not be choppy....lol.

I had a great swim today. I'm finding that I'm beginning to find out what feels better, the more I swim. Tomorrow will be 6X this week. My last few intervals have me anxious to go back tomorrow.

I appreciate everyone's insights, sincerely.
2015-09-12 4:03 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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1502
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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
I didn't read through the whole string, so I apologize if this was covered, but I noticed the other day on my garmin data that the faster I swim, the less strokes per length I use. So that would mean that at the higher turnover rates, I'm actually more efficient since it takes less strokes to go the same distance. I thought that was weird, because I always assumed it was the opposite; that at higher rates, I would be using more, less efficient strokes. Looking at a workout from last week, here is what I saw:

500 yd warm up @ ave 1:30/100 = 18-20 strokes per length
100 yd repeats @ ave 1:15/100 = 16-18 strokes per length
50 yd repeats @ ave 1:04/100 = 14-18 strokes per length
25 yd repeats @ ave 1:00/100 = 12-14 strokes per length

This is precisely the opposite of what I would think. I could see it for running, because at a faster rate, you are increasing your stride, but that's not the case with swimming.


2015-09-12 4:47 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
2015-09-12 6:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
Originally posted by jckcrlln

I have been a swimmer for 19 years. I swam at national level events in scy and lcm. Maybe I can add some insight.

Increasing stroke rate is not path towards efficiency, however, it is a way increase energy output to improve speed. You wouldn't say that a propeller is more efficient because the RPMs increase, in fact, efficiency in this case would be defined as the amount of work done by the propeller on the water in a single 360 degree rotation. That's where my analogy ends.

I'm not a coach or a skilled swimmer but..

I don't think that energy per stroke (or per propeller revolution) is a useful way to define efficiency. it's more useful to think of the amount of energy required to maintain a given speed. For a swimmer at speed x there must be a stroke rate (or range of stroke rates) that is most efficient. It seems pretty obvious that some swimmers will be stroking too fast while others will be stroking too slowly. (And some are in their Goldilocks zone.) The optimal change to stroke rate (speed up, slow down or maintain current rate) must vary from one person to the next.

Edit - just noticed the swimsmooth link in the post above. I think the graph on that page says it all.
Don

Edited by donw 2015-09-12 6:05 PM
2015-09-13 9:01 AM
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Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
Originally posted by nc452010

More fodder for reading........

http://www.swimsmooth.com/strokerate.html




This is the site I used to get things straight about what I was trying to do. Using the wetronome in my swim cap in pool training helped me expose my "dead spot", excess glide whatever. Counting strokes per length IN CONJUNCTION with this helped me pinpoint a sweet spot for the fitness level and swim technique I was at. Swimming is so technical, so when trying to improve, I worked on certain things at a time, otherwise I'd be swimming all willy nilly just trying to be faster. The beep cadence tuned me in to a rate I planned on working on. Finding your current sweet spot of spm/spl where you put up your fastest time is key, or it was for me, because it gave me a marker I could rely on to work forward from. Not just "my best 100 yard" time, because how would I know if it was my best? maybe my form dropped off as I simply tried to swim faster and sparred with the water.

jck mentioned really finishing one's pull, sooooo correct, for me, i tend to muscle everything and therefore can get choppy when trying to swim faster, i self-correct/self-check by deliberately grazing my hip before recovery to make sure I'm not getting to short of a pull. Good thorough pulls really helpful to maintain forward momentum open water (least how I have felt drilling ows this year)

Edited by TJHammer 2015-09-13 9:02 AM
2015-09-13 9:03 AM
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538
50025
Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
Originally posted by 3mar

I didn't read through the whole string, so I apologize if this was covered, but I noticed the other day on my garmin data that the faster I swim, the less strokes per length I use. So that would mean that at the higher turnover rates, I'm actually more efficient since it takes less strokes to go the same distance. I thought that was weird, because I always assumed it was the opposite; that at higher rates, I would be using more, less efficient strokes. Looking at a workout from last week, here is what I saw:

500 yd warm up @ ave 1:30/100 = 18-20 strokes per length
100 yd repeats @ ave 1:15/100 = 16-18 strokes per length
50 yd repeats @ ave 1:04/100 = 14-18 strokes per length
25 yd repeats @ ave 1:00/100 = 12-14 strokes per length

This is precisely the opposite of what I would think. I could see it for running, because at a faster rate, you are increasing your stride, but that's not the case with swimming.



So mad I didn't get to go down there to swim with ya this year. Hopefully next! I'll be drilling pool sessions this winter to prep

Edited by TJHammer 2015-09-13 9:04 AM
2015-09-13 11:01 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
Originally posted by TJHammer

Originally posted by 3mar

I didn't read through the whole string, so I apologize if this was covered, but I noticed the other day on my garmin data that the faster I swim, the less strokes per length I use. So that would mean that at the higher turnover rates, I'm actually more efficient since it takes less strokes to go the same distance. I thought that was weird, because I always assumed it was the opposite; that at higher rates, I would be using more, less efficient strokes. Looking at a workout from last week, here is what I saw:

500 yd warm up @ ave 1:30/100 = 18-20 strokes per length
100 yd repeats @ ave 1:15/100 = 16-18 strokes per length
50 yd repeats @ ave 1:04/100 = 14-18 strokes per length
25 yd repeats @ ave 1:00/100 = 12-14 strokes per length

This is precisely the opposite of what I would think. I could see it for running, because at a faster rate, you are increasing your stride, but that's not the case with swimming.



So mad I didn't get to go down there to swim with ya this year. Hopefully next! I'll be drilling pool sessions this winter to prep


No kidding. That would have been cool. Especially since I can never find people to OWS with me here


2015-09-14 12:12 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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216
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Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?
Originally posted by 3mar

Looking at a workout from last week, here is what I saw:

500 yd warm up @ ave 1:30/100 = 18-20 strokes per length
100 yd repeats @ ave 1:15/100 = 16-18 strokes per length
50 yd repeats @ ave 1:04/100 = 14-18 strokes per length
25 yd repeats @ ave 1:00/100 = 12-14 strokes per length

This is precisely the opposite of what I would think.


And completely backwards from my personal experience

Warmup @ ~1:20/100 =13-15 SPL
50 or 75 repeats on 20 seconds rest, 1:06/100 pace = 16-19 SPL (19 usually only on the last 25 of a 75 late in the set)
25 repeats on 20 seconds rest, 0:56/100 pace =18-20 SPL
25 sprints at max speed (under 13 seconds) with long rest = 20-22 SPL
2015-09-15 1:19 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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The Woodlands, TX
Subject: RE: Increasing stroke rate to become MORE efficient?

Originally posted by 3mar I didn't read through the whole string, so I apologize if this was covered, but I noticed the other day on my garmin data that the faster I swim, the less strokes per length I use. So that would mean that at the higher turnover rates, I'm actually more efficient since it takes less strokes to go the same distance. I thought that was weird, because I always assumed it was the opposite; that at higher rates, I would be using more, less efficient strokes. Looking at a workout from last week, here is what I saw: 500 yd warm up @ ave 1:30/100 = 18-20 strokes per length 100 yd repeats @ ave 1:15/100 = 16-18 strokes per length 50 yd repeats @ ave 1:04/100 = 14-18 strokes per length 25 yd repeats @ ave 1:00/100 = 12-14 strokes per length This is precisely the opposite of what I would think. I could see it for running, because at a faster rate, you are increasing your stride, but that's not the case with swimming.

 

Sorry to jump into this late, but this is sort of apples and oranges. Shorter distances change a number of things that would effect strokerate. My fastest 25 has a strokerate of zero if I do it right. The comparison should be the same distance but different speeds. So for instance, a set of 200's at an increasingly faster pace would show you how rate and speed are connected.

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