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2015-12-04 8:29 AM

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Subject: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Now that I'm full steam ahead on my bike focus for the off season, I decided I needed a plan and Marc and Shane's 13 week training program seems like an awesome way to go and is crazy full of really good information. (not sure if I'll do all 13 weeks, but will have to see how it overlaps with the build up to next season's first oly). I did a 20 minute test a little over a month ago, but in trying to figure out if I need to work on threshold or VO2 max, I needed to do a 5 minute test also. I did the 5 minute test today. My question; is this too long in between the two tests? Do I need to redo the 20 minute test? I sure hope not, because both tests ranked pretty high on my internal suck-o-meter.

The numbers don't seem righ to me. I averaged 216 for the 20 min test and 297 for the 5 minute test. This puts my ratio at 1.375 which is high into the "sprinter" catagory. I've been called many things in my life, but "spriner" is certainly not one of them.

The 5 minute test was a bit ugly this morning. I started too hot and dropped towards the end. I think I managed the 20 minute test better. Anyway, below are the graphs from each. So do I do a 20 minute test again?

Also, if anyone is interested in doing the program with me, drop me a line.



(20 minute test 10_28 .JPG)



(5 minute test 12_4.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
20 minute test 10_28 .JPG (59KB - 9 downloads)
5 minute test 12_4.JPG (54KB - 9 downloads)


2015-12-04 8:49 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Not a Coach
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Media, PA
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

If these were your first of each test, it's a good bet that you didn't perform as well as you could (e.g., looks to me like you spent way too much time below 200w for a 216w average in the 20min test).  As you get a better sense of where you think you should land, pacing yourself through the tests will get better and the results will be more 'accurate'.  You can re-test or just use the results you have to start setting your training and then adjust as you get more comfortable with what you can do over different intervals.

2015-12-04 8:58 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

Does 189w for CP sound right based on what you have seen in your training?  If you had to do 5 x 5:00 @ 190w with 1:00 RI, how difficult do you think it would be?

Personally, I would redo the 20' test.

2015-12-04 9:08 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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1502
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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by axteraa

Does 189w for CP sound right based on what you have seen in your training?  If you had to do 5 x 5:00 @ 190w with 1:00 RI, how difficult do you think it would be?

Personally, I would redo the 20' test.




Actually, part of the test protocol this morning was a 5 minute interval where I averaged around 185-188 (I didn't hit the lap button so I'm just estimating based on the chart) but for that five minutes my HR leveled off at around 128 for the duration and actually dropped a bit toward the end, which is Zone 2 for me. So 189 for 5 x 5:00 would probably make for a light day. I think I could easily be 200+ for an interval set like that.
2015-12-04 9:10 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by axteraa

Does 189w for CP sound right based on what you have seen in your training?  If you had to do 5 x 5:00 @ 190w with 1:00 RI, how difficult do you think it would be?

Personally, I would redo the 20' test.

Actually, part of the test protocol this morning was a 5 minute interval where I averaged around 185-188 (I didn't hit the lap button so I'm just estimating based on the chart) but for that five minutes my HR leveled off at around 128 for the duration and actually dropped a bit toward the end, which is Zone 2 for me. So 189 for 5 x 5:00 would probably make for a light day. I think I could easily be 200+ for an interval set like that.

Let us know how the second test goes.  

2015-12-04 9:16 AM
in reply to: 0

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by axteraa

Does 189w for CP sound right based on what you have seen in your training?  If you had to do 5 x 5:00 @ 190w with 1:00 RI, how difficult do you think it would be?

Personally, I would redo the 20' test.

Actually, part of the test protocol this morning was a 5 minute interval where I averaged around 185-188 (I didn't hit the lap button so I'm just estimating based on the chart) but for that five minutes my HR leveled off at around 128 for the duration and actually dropped a bit toward the end, which is Zone 2 for me. So 189 for 5 x 5:00 would probably make for a light day. I think I could easily be 200+ for an interval set like that.

Let us know how the second test goes.  




Dang it. Well, I guess I know what next Wednesday's trainer session will consist of.

Edited by 3mar 2015-12-04 9:16 AM


2015-12-04 9:46 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by 3mar


Dang it. Well, I guess I know what next Wednesday's trainer session will consist of.


If you puke in the 19th minute of your test, you know you did it right
2015-12-04 10:25 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by 3mar Dang it. Well, I guess I know what next Wednesday's trainer session will consist of.
If you puke in the 19th minute of your test, you know you did it right

 

if you feel start to feel that holding your power is impossible, and you want to quit already...at minute 7, then you know you're on track.  This may sound like a joke...it really isn't.  Most of a 20' test is mental...and as I alluded to before, I don't think you quit know what it is really like to suffer on the bike.  The good news is that a power meter is the best way to test your limits.  Just that it may take a few tries before you actually ride till complete failure. 

2015-12-04 10:50 AM
in reply to: 0

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Master
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Overland Park, KS
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Stick with the program, retest in 7 weeks or so. I was in their mentor group a couple years ago and I learned a lot and have had good improvements on the bike because of it. Go with the CP you have now, you may see a change when you retest, it will definitely go up if you stick with the plan.

Edited by reecealan 2015-12-04 10:50 AM
2015-12-04 11:00 AM
in reply to: reecealan

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Not a Coach
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Media, PA
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

Originally posted by reecealan I wouldn't worry about it too much. Stick with the program, retest in 7 weeks or so. I was in their mentor group a couple years ago and I learned a lot and have had good improvements on the bike because of it. Go with the CP you have now, you may see a change when you retest, it will definitely go up if you stick with the plan.

He's going to 'see' an increase whether he sticks with the plan or not.  The CP he has now form his tests is too low.

2015-12-04 11:14 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by 3mar
I averaged 216 for the 20 min test and 297 for the 5 minute test.


you are higher than 216 on the 20' test. Guaranteed.



2015-12-04 11:14 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by 3mar Dang it. Well, I guess I know what next Wednesday's trainer session will consist of.
If you puke in the 19th minute of your test, you know you did it right

 

if you feel start to feel that holding your power is impossible, and you want to quit already...at minute 7, then you know you're on track.  This may sound like a joke...it really isn't.  Most of a 20' test is mental...and as I alluded to before, I don't think you quit know what it is really like to suffer on the bike.  The good news is that a power meter is the best way to test your limits.  Just that it may take a few tries before you actually ride till complete failure. 




I am seeing that. Each time I reach what I think is the absolute limit as far as percieved effort, I find there's even more the next time now that I am pushing it. This morning was pretty rough.
2015-12-04 11:21 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by 3mar Dang it. Well, I guess I know what next Wednesday's trainer session will consist of.
If you puke in the 19th minute of your test, you know you did it right

 

if you feel start to feel that holding your power is impossible, and you want to quit already...at minute 7, then you know you're on track.  This may sound like a joke...it really isn't.  Most of a 20' test is mental...and as I alluded to before, I don't think you quit know what it is really like to suffer on the bike.  The good news is that a power meter is the best way to test your limits.  Just that it may take a few tries before you actually ride till complete failure. 

I am seeing that. Each time I reach what I think is the absolute limit as far as percieved effort, I find there's even more the next time now that I am pushing it. This morning was pretty rough.

And it's normal to progress that way.  I would bet 20 bucks your 20' power is at least 260 right now.  With room for improvement to the 280 range. You're a far more gifted athlete than I am. 

2015-12-04 11:27 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by 3mar Dang it. Well, I guess I know what next Wednesday's trainer session will consist of.
If you puke in the 19th minute of your test, you know you did it right

 

if you feel start to feel that holding your power is impossible, and you want to quit already...at minute 7, then you know you're on track.  This may sound like a joke...it really isn't.  Most of a 20' test is mental...and as I alluded to before, I don't think you quit know what it is really like to suffer on the bike.  The good news is that a power meter is the best way to test your limits.  Just that it may take a few tries before you actually ride till complete failure. 

I am seeing that. Each time I reach what I think is the absolute limit as far as percieved effort, I find there's even more the next time now that I am pushing it. This morning was pretty rough.

And it's normal to progress that way.  I would bet 20 bucks your 20' power is at least 260 right now.  With room for improvement to the 280 range. You're a far more gifted athlete than I am. 




Thanks, but that also gives merrit to what's been creeping in the back of my mind the last couple of months; that I don't work nearly as hard as I think I do...or at least not compared to others. I always thought I was a mentally tough person, but this sport is making me think I have a lot of work to do in that department.
2015-12-04 11:28 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Silicon Valley
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by axteraa

Does 189w for CP sound right based on what you have seen in your training?  If you had to do 5 x 5:00 @ 190w with 1:00 RI, how difficult do you think it would be?

Personally, I would redo the 20' test.



+1 - Retake the test. I recently took my second 20' test about 60 days apart. BIG difference. Some is attributable to more training but just as much was riding the 20' much smarter. It's like when I do an unknown hill for the first time. There's a psychology to the unknown that messes me up. The same hill the very next day I would ride much better.

My winter bike regimen is three Sufferfest classes a week of two hours each. Having already started that I am confident my next test in Jan will be better still.
2015-12-04 11:33 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by Jason N
 I would bet 20 bucks your 20' power is at least 260 right now.


I predict a "Guess my 20' power' thread in the next week.

First dibs on 240


PS : 3mar, don't forget to calibrate


Edited by marcag 2015-12-04 11:44 AM


2015-12-04 11:56 AM
in reply to: marcag

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1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by Jason N
 I would bet 20 bucks your 20' power is at least 260 right now.


I predict a "Guess my 20' power' thread in the next week.

First dibs on 240


PS : 3mar, don't forget to calibrate



I'm not very proud of my bike stats, so I wouldn't normally, but now I have to...
2015-12-04 12:46 PM
in reply to: 0

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

Thanks, but that also gives merrit to what's been creeping in the back of my mind the last couple of months; that I don't work nearly as hard as I think I do...or at least not compared to others. I always thought I was a mentally tough person, but this sport is making me think I have a lot of work to do in that department.

I also don't perform well at the 20 minute test, so I don't have much advice for you. 

The biggest problem for me is RPE on an indoor ride vs outdoor ride.  For my last Sprint I averaged around 240 watts for over 1/2 hour.  It was tough but manageable and not a soul sucking effort.

For the threshold sessions I'm doing on the trainer now, I need to hold that wattage for only 5 minutes and it feels like an eternity.

Same PM so its not a question of different readings too.



Edited by Scott71 2015-12-04 12:55 PM
2015-12-04 1:00 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

Originally posted by Scott71

Thanks, but that also gives merrit to what's been creeping in the back of my mind the last couple of months; that I don't work nearly as hard as I think I do...or at least not compared to others. I always thought I was a mentally tough person, but this sport is making me think I have a lot of work to do in that department.

I also don't perform well at the 20 minute test, so I don't have much advice for you. 

The biggest problem for me is RPE on an indoor ride vs outdoor ride.  For my last Sprint I averaged around 240 watts for over 1/2 hour.  It was tough but manageable and not a soul sucking effort.

For the threshold sessions I'm doing on the trainer now, I need to hold that wattage for only 5 minutes and it feels like an eternity.

Same PM so its not a question of different readings too.

I'm the same way on the trainer...can't hold the same power.  So maybe I should qualify my 260 estimation.  I believe 3mar can hold 260 for 20 minutes if it was an outdoor all out time trial.  It may be much more difficult for him to his 260 on the trainer for 20 minutes.  I know I can't match my 20' power outdoors on the trainer.  But his 20' trainer power is still way higher than 216.



Edited by Jason N 2015-12-04 1:01 PM
2015-12-04 1:38 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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1502
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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
One other question I had; are you supposed to stay in aero position the whole time? I've found I can push a bit more power sitting up (not standing on the pedals but sitting like on a road bike) but wasn't sure if this was "legal" for this testing. My thought process was if you are training to go faster in aero position, you should be in aero position all the time while training. I'll admit I did sit up for about 30 seconds this morning around minute 3 but went back in aero for the last minute and a half.
2015-12-04 1:40 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

I sit up - in fact, I just use my road bike on the trainer.



2015-12-04 1:46 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

Originally posted by 3mar One other question I had; are you supposed to stay in aero position the whole time? I've found I can push a bit more power sitting up (not standing on the pedals but sitting like on a road bike) but wasn't sure if this was "legal" for this testing. My thought process was if you are training to go faster in aero position, you should be in aero position all the time while training. I'll admit I did sit up for about 30 seconds this morning around minute 3 but went back in aero for the last minute and a half.

In the end, it doesn't really matter that much how you do the test.  Could the results vary by 5-10 watts depending how you do it...sure.  The 20' test is just a general "guideline" to drive your other interval workouts.  It's not some magic number that is extremely important to nail down exactly how you race.  Sure, there will come a time when you need to dial things in with the aero position as you get closer to racing, but right now your focus is simply on bike fitness improvement.

IOW, don't sweat the details right now.  Focus more on maximizing results, however that might be.

2015-12-04 2:04 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

If you don't have to immediately write the average watts on your iphone after the test and before the warmdown as you will forget it within 60 seconds since your brain is mush, you're doing it wrong 

2015-12-04 3:09 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests

Originally posted by 3mar One other question I had; are you supposed to stay in aero position the whole time? I've found I can push a bit more power sitting up (not standing on the pedals but sitting like on a road bike) but wasn't sure if this was "legal" for this testing. My thought process was if you are training to go faster in aero position, you should be in aero position all the time while training. I'll admit I did sit up for about 30 seconds this morning around minute 3 but went back in aero for the last minute and a half.
The whole time no, do what you need to do to get through it.  I seem to be an odd one where I can make better power in aero than sitting up so I'm in aero most of the time other than a quick physical break here and there. I also make it a bit easier having the front tire all the way up on the riser ring.

I'd say retest, that CP of 189w will be undertraining vs a CP 221 (20' = 240w).  I too think you should be in the +240w (+80%) range.  I just did the two CP tests this week after not being on the bike since June and was able to manage 89.7% of my 5' power.

2015-12-04 4:02 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Master
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Overland Park, KS
Subject: RE: Time between 20 min and 5 min Bike Tests
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by reecealan I wouldn't worry about it too much. Stick with the program, retest in 7 weeks or so. I was in their mentor group a couple years ago and I learned a lot and have had good improvements on the bike because of it. Go with the CP you have now, you may see a change when you retest, it will definitely go up if you stick with the plan.

He's going to 'see' an increase whether he sticks with the plan or not.  The CP he has now form his tests is too low.




Upon further reflection and looking at my recent tests I agree 100% on the retest.
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