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Is B2B about to be ruined?
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 2015-12-07 3:45 PM |
Extreme Veteran  1148    Nisbet, PA |  Subject: Is B2B about to be ruined?I was digging around B2B's Fb page and discovered a rumor that the race is being taken over by WTC and will be IM branded for 2016. Now, personally, I don't really care who promotes the race. But what I DO care about is that IM races typically cost about DOUBLE non-branded races seem to cost. What with the cost of several days hotel and food, plus driving to and from the event, I am not really in the mood to double my entry fee on top of all that. Especially when all the buzz are that there is no significant improvements for the extra money, you're just paying for the name. Maybe if I was trying to qualify for or intending to race Kona I might feel different. But I'm not, and I am quite positive that I won't be "in the money" even racing as a Master Clydesdale. Another thing about this change, USAT has declined to sanction any WTC events because of concerns for rider safety and rules conflicts. In a WTC race the official can order you to "stand-down" at any time to impose his chosen time penalty. There is no appeals process. If you refuse to stand-down then he can DQ you, on the spot. As a motor-ref for USA Cycling I don't think this is at all fair. And then there is the issue of the official stopping his motorcycle on the course to enforce such an order. It's far too easy for a rider in a aero position and sucking wind to not see the motor until he crashes into it. I'm going to keep watching this develop and I am going to investigate a few other options, like the HITS series. I read that HITS has the best transition areas in triathlon, hands down. And I remember when I was thinking about doing one in St Petersburg, before Mom moved up from Tampa, that their pricing was significantly less than most. Have any of you ever done an IM branded race? Was there a significant benefit to it being IM branded, or did it just cost you more money to do the same race? |
| 2015-12-07 7:02 PM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Pro 6582  Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Wow really!?! Not that I'm interested in B2B but there's been a lot of discussion lately on other sites about the independents and race survival. Look at Savageman, a race I want to do in the future, it's attendance and support is dropping with the race calendar in the mid-Atlantic being swamped. |
| 2015-12-07 7:21 PM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Your statements about WTC and USAT sanctioning is simply untrue and incorrect. |
| 2015-12-07 8:35 PM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by leatherneckpa I was digging around B2B's Fb page and discovered a rumor that the race is being taken over by WTC and will be IM branded for 2016. Now, personally, I don't really care who promotes the race. But what I DO care about is that IM races typically cost about DOUBLE non-branded races seem to cost. What with the cost of several days hotel and food, plus driving to and from the event, I am not really in the mood to double my entry fee on top of all that. Especially when all the buzz are that there is no significant improvements for the extra money, you're just paying for the name. Maybe if I was trying to qualify for or intending to race Kona I might feel different. But I'm not, and I am quite positive that I won't be "in the money" even racing as a Master Clydesdale. Another thing about this change, USAT has declined to sanction any WTC events because of concerns for rider safety and rules conflicts. In a WTC race the official can order you to "stand-down" at any time to impose his chosen time penalty. There is no appeals process. If you refuse to stand-down then he can DQ you, on the spot. As a motor-ref for USA Cycling I don't think this is at all fair. And then there is the issue of the official stopping his motorcycle on the course to enforce such an order. It's far too easy for a rider in a aero position and sucking wind to not see the motor until he crashes into it. I'm going to keep watching this develop and I am going to investigate a few other options, like the HITS series. I read that HITS has the best transition areas in triathlon, hands down. And I remember when I was thinking about doing one in St Petersburg, before Mom moved up from Tampa, that their pricing was significantly less than most. Have any of you ever done an IM branded race? Was there a significant benefit to it being IM branded, or did it just cost you more money to do the same race? Um....unless this is something new and unique to B2B, all American WTC events are USAT sanctioned. They do however. have their own modified rules and use their own officials, some of who are USAT certified officials, that doesn't mean they are not USAT sanctioned races. HITS has great transition areas, and shorter then advertised courses....much shorter in some cases. They are a small race series that is short on volunteers sometimes as well, but some do like their races. Everyone likes to hate on WTC, but they do put on a good show. You are in good hands, have plenty of volunteer support, and a good atmosphere with the race (if that is your thing). Most that complain about WTC races still do them. In the end it depends on what you want, but a lot of people like to embellish the faults of WTC, but they still give and provide you what you need with better consistency then most other races. |
| 2015-12-07 8:42 PM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Regular 585 Pueblo, Colorado | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by leatherneckpa Another thing about this change, USAT has declined to sanction any WTC events because of concerns for rider safety and rules conflicts. In a WTC race the official can order you to "stand-down" at any time to impose his chosen time penalty. There is no appeals process. If you refuse to stand-down then he can DQ you, on the spot. As a motor-ref for USA Cycling I don't think this is at all fair. And then there is the issue of the official stopping his motorcycle on the course to enforce such an order. It's far too easy for a rider in a aero position and sucking wind to not see the motor until he crashes into it. I'm going to keep watching this develop and I am going to investigate a few other options, like the HITS series. I read that HITS has the best transition areas in triathlon, hands down. And I remember when I was thinking about doing one in St Petersburg, before Mom moved up from Tampa, that their pricing was significantly less than most. Have any of you ever done an IM branded race? Was there a significant benefit to it being IM branded, or did it just cost you more money to do the same race? My two cents: With regard to USAT. Every Ironman event I've done has required that I have a USAT membership or one day license. Some of the specific rules are slightly different than USAT but not by much. The time penalties for different violations are expressly stated in the athlete guide prior to the event. I've not heard of a motorcycle stopping on a course to order someone to stand down. You usually receive notification via a card system. HITS puts on a great race, but it's a completely different vibe. Their full races are much smaller and you can expect smaller crowd support by far. It's a great option if you prefer or more intimate experience, but the two really can't be compared. If you register early you can often take advantage of a discounted price that is sometimes half what an IM race is. IM certainly costs a lot more than most local events, but in my experience their races are organized and well-executed. The full distance costs a fortune, but in my experience it was worth it given the time investment I made in training. |
| 2015-12-07 9:29 PM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Member 66 Seneca, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? I'm hoping that B2B stays the way it is. I did the half this year and had a great experience. This race would be my first choice if I ever get the ambition & skills necessary to try an iron distance race. Fingers Crossed, AD |
| 2015-12-08 6:50 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 1148 Nisbet, PA | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by GMAN 19030 You may have noticed that the last two lines of my post were questions that asked for information. Have you done any WTC/IM branded races? Did you notice any significant benefit to those races being IM branded? As for USAT sanctioning, that information came direct from the USAT website. So I'm betting it's accurate.Your statements about WTC and USAT sanctioning is simply untrue and incorrect. Edited by leatherneckpa 2015-12-08 6:51 AM |
| 2015-12-08 6:55 AM in reply to: tedjohn |
Extreme Veteran 1148 Nisbet, PA | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by tedjohn Nice input. Thank you.HITS puts on a great race, but it's a completely different vibe. Their full races are much smaller and you can expect smaller crowd support by far. It's a great option if you prefer or more intimate experience, but the two really can't be compared. If you register early you can often take advantage of a discounted price that is sometimes half what an IM race is. IM certainly costs a lot more than most local events, but in my experience their races are organized and well-executed. The full distance costs a fortune, but in my experience it was worth it given the time investment I made in training. |
| 2015-12-08 7:33 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by leatherneckpa Originally posted by GMAN 19030 You may have noticed that the last two lines of my post were questions that asked for information. Have you done any WTC/IM branded races? Did you notice any significant benefit to those races being IM branded? As for USAT sanctioning, that information came direct from the USAT website. So I'm betting it's accurate. Your statements about WTC and USAT sanctioning is simply untrue and incorrect. Can you post a link to that? I think something is being misinterpreted. IME, all WTC events in the U.S. are USAT sanctioned.
Edited to clarify that we're talking about U.S. events only.
Edited by TriMyBest 2015-12-08 7:36 AM |
| 2015-12-08 7:56 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by bcagle25 HITS has great transition areas, and shorter then advertised courses....much shorter in some cases. Exactly what I found. I did the HITS HIM last year in Naples, Fl. My two bigest takeaways were how short the course was (about 3 miles short on the bike, 1 mile short on the run and anout 500 m short on the swim) and really really awesome transition areas. I wasn't too happy about the shorter course, especially for my first one. I ended up doing B2B for my second half and *technically* I beat my PR by 5 minutes, but in reality it was closer to 15+ becuase the time I had at HITS was on a shorter course, so it really took away from that acheivement. I would not have wanted to do my first full IM and have it a couple of miles short, that would be disheartening in my opinion. On another note, every time folks start hating on IM branding and the corporation they sound like a bunch of teenagers bashing on "the man". It always sounds like, "duuude...that's a corporation man.....like, my pops is a slave to the man, not me bro....yo, pass me that dube." I mean seriously, yes it's a corporation, just like the one that 99% of us work for and many of us are owning partners of, at least to some degree. How else do we buy these $5,000 bicycles? I think it's an awesome organization. It was founded and grew through the life and love of the event, not the other way around. I like what it stands for and had an amazing experience at IMTX. I did B2B as well and found them very similar. And I even have an M-Dot tattoo..."wow man...you let a corporation tag you?!?! Dude that's a CORPORATION.....the evil downer of our generation man..." Seriourly...that's what it sounds like to me. |
| 2015-12-08 8:26 AM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Extreme Veteran 1148 Nisbet, PA | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by TriMyBestCan you post a link to that? I think something is being misinterpreted. IME, all WTC events in the U.S. are USAT sanctioned. As a teacher one of the things I try to impress upon my students is the necessity of documenting sources. I am ashamed to admit that, so far this morning, I have been unable to re-locate the article I referenced. Point well taken, and I will make sure I provide links in the future. I have not given up on finding this link though.
Edited to clarify that we're talking about U.S. events only.
It was specifically regarding USAT-WTC and North American events. |
| 2015-12-08 8:31 AM in reply to: #5155461 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? I would find it very strange that even if obtained by WTC they race would go to an unsanctioned event considering it was USAT sanctioned as B2B and promoted as a USAT regional championship event. If your source is the media....well most media sources are very inaccurate and often incorrect with information. |
| 2015-12-08 8:46 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Master 2485 Atlanta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? My impression is that WTC is run by smart business people, with a clearly articulated corporate strategy. If they're interested in B2B, it's because they must see some opportunity to expand the event. One of the big questions is whether WTC wants the race as a 70.3 or 140.6. The half at B2B generally sells out 1150 spaces, the full generally does not sell out its 850 spaces. Not really conceivable they'd maintain the two races on the same course format. That said... I've done B2B every year it's been held - 4 times the half/4 times the full - and as a participant, it's tough for me to visualize what they're going to do to make the event better in exchange for the $250(or whatever it winds up being) markup. The caliber of participant probably goes up a little bit, especially as slots to the world championships are up for grabs but the essence of every other aspect stays the same. From the perspective of a participant, why would anyone who's been sitting on the fence about B2B all these years suddenly want to do the race? My first couple of IM's were WTC - they were just fine, and I loved the crowd at the finish. I can not say there was more support or better organization or a better course or a more profound feeling of accomplishment at the finish line. I'll summarize my feeling about the rumor this way: If WTC buys B2B, ok, fine...I'm probably still going to show again next year. But the world of tri in no way will have been improved for WTC's involvement. In fact, the reduction of the ranks of independent events by one means WTC is getting close to a monopoly on long course racing and that's probably not such a good thing. So here's hoping this is just a rumor to keep us engaged during the off-season. |
| 2015-12-08 8:50 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Extreme Veteran 1148 Nisbet, PA | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Found it! And consider me doubly-chagrined. Another thing I try to impress upon my students is to ensure the information they cite is TIMELY. Once again I have committed a "do as I say, not as I do" error. The article I read which started all of this came from what I consider to be a usually reliable source, it was this Beginer Triathlete article. However, I notice that the time stamp is over 10 years old. Not at all timely. I apologize for that, and wish there was a way to delete this thread. However, I have read some interesting replies to other parts of my questions. For right now, I shall wait until the 14th and see what the registration fees are before I decide whether to pursue this event. |
| 2015-12-08 9:00 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? I can only tell you the WTC race I am signed up for next year required my USAT member # so I think what you read was a misprint. I do not have any experience with penalties in a race but I believe the official pulls next to you to show you the card. They do not stop you. Either way worrying about someone not paying attention and crashing into an official is a bit of a reach. In the scenario you describe that person could crash into just about anything. I haven't done B2B and it will stay on the bucket list unless I hear a lot of bad stories should the change take place. If it does go through I don't think it will ruin the race but it will get a lot more crowded.
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| 2015-12-08 9:06 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by leatherneckpa Found it! And consider me doubly-chagrined. Another thing I try to impress upon my students is to ensure the information they cite is TIMELY. Once again I have committed a "do as I say, not as I do" error. The article I read which started all of this came from what I consider to be a usually reliable source, it was this Beginer Triathlete article. However, I notice that the time stamp is over 10 years old. Not at all timely. I apologize for that, and wish there was a way to delete this thread. However, I have read some interesting replies to other parts of my questions. For right now, I shall wait until the 14th and see what the registration fees are before I decide whether to pursue this event. Curious if you remember how you came across it? |
| 2015-12-08 9:16 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Extreme Veteran 1018 | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? To answer the last part of your post: Have any of you ever done an IM branded race? Was there a significant benefit to it being IM branded, or did it just cost you more money to do the same race?
I've done independent races and IM races. The IM brand is very strong and it draws a huge crowd. The crowd is volunteers and racers. The more people, the more energy. I like low key races too. However, there is something cool about IM races. It's all relative. Why pay money to race? Why not just do a self supported 70.3 or 140.6 for free in your area? Yes, B2B will double in price; however, it will quintuple in registrants. |
| 2015-12-08 9:53 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by leatherneckpa Have any of you ever done an IM branded race? Was there a significant benefit to it being IM branded, or did it just cost you more money to do the same race? I've done both non-branded and branded IMs. The main differentiation is atmosphere, which is driven by numbers of both participants and spectators. Some light YouTube research will show you a huge difference in nearly every aspect - from the swim start to the finish line. Some would say "you get what you pay for" applies here. It all comes down to what you want out of a race. They both have pros and cons. |
| 2015-12-08 10:32 AM in reply to: lisac957 |
Master 2429 Falls Church, Virginia | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? My feelings about WTC vs non-WTC are mostly $$ motivated. The costs get to a point where it isn't something my family budget can consider right now. That's why I was sad when Chesapeake Man became IMMD. And on that point...are both races going to run if B2B does turn WTC? That would have two East Coast, flat races in October. Although, I guess a lot of people like flat courses? |
| 2015-12-08 11:43 AM in reply to: leatherneckpa |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Well, if it happens, it'll make my choice of which IM branded 140.6 easy. It's in my state AND I have a free place to stay (just outside Wilmington). It would be the cheapest 140.6 I could hope for. |
| 2015-12-08 12:13 PM in reply to: alltom1 |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by alltom1 My impression is that WTC is run by smart business people, with a clearly articulated corporate strategy. If they're interested in B2B, it's because they must see some opportunity to expand the event. One of the big questions is whether WTC wants the race as a 70.3 or 140.6. The half at B2B generally sells out 1150 spaces, the full generally does not sell out its 850 spaces. Not really conceivable they'd maintain the two races on the same course format. That said... I've done B2B every year it's been held - 4 times the half/4 times the full - and as a participant, it's tough for me to visualize what they're going to do to make the event better in exchange for the $250(or whatever it winds up being) markup. The caliber of participant probably goes up a little bit, especially as slots to the world championships are up for grabs but the essence of every other aspect stays the same. From the perspective of a participant, why would anyone who's been sitting on the fence about B2B all these years suddenly want to do the race? My first couple of IM's were WTC - they were just fine, and I loved the crowd at the finish. I can not say there was more support or better organization or a better course or a more profound feeling of accomplishment at the finish line. I'll summarize my feeling about the rumor this way: If WTC buys B2B, ok, fine...I'm probably still going to show again next year. But the world of tri in no way will have been improved for WTC's involvement. In fact, the reduction of the ranks of independent events by one means WTC is getting close to a monopoly on long course racing and that's probably not such a good thing. So here's hoping this is just a rumor to keep us engaged during the off-season. I'm with Alltom1 on this one...I've raced B2B 3 out of the 4 years I've lived in NC and think it's a great race, just how it is now. I like the fact that it supports a local, non-profit organizatin, full and half participants race together, the lower registration fees, the smaller crowds, the location, and various other parts of the race (pajama pants, anyone?). I'm a fan of WTC, to an extent. I usually race 2 WTC branded races (and 2-4 local races) per year. That probably won't change, especially with the price of these races. I like the atmosphere, the high level of competition, and the fact that these races are usually well run. However, I'm not a fan of WTC just taking over every competitor and leaving few local/independent options. I'm interested to see how this plays out. I, too, hope it's just a rumor. |
| 2015-12-08 12:30 PM in reply to: d00d |
Pro 6520 Bellingham, WA | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? I assume that the folks that organize/own B2B have the right to say "thanks but no thanks, we'd like to keep the race the way it is". I assume there is a buyout of the race name and whatever rights go along with that. What is it that motivates the folks at B2B or Vineman or any of the others to sell their race? I assume it is money that is talking but who specifically benefits from that payout or payoff? I am assuming a lot because I do not really know the answers but would be curious as to what is in the minds of those being purchased. I could certainly see the motivations for a race that is diminishing in attendance and quality but these are great events as is. While WTC is free to do what they do it also requires another willing party and that doesn't seem to get talked about much. |
| 2015-12-08 1:09 PM in reply to: alltom1 |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Originally posted by alltom1 My impression is that WTC is run by smart business people, with a clearly articulated corporate strategy. If they're interested in B2B, it's because they must see some opportunity to expand the event. This is the key part right hear, WTC is a business looking to increase profits every year. By going in and buying out an existing race they take a lot of risk out of setting up an new "Ironman" The expansion they will do is bring more people because of the IMM name. Considering they have a full IM they same month not too far away I would guess they are looking at turning it into a 70.3. |
| 2015-12-08 2:07 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? It's already a 70.3 (sold out). It's also a 140.6. I assume you're suggesting they'd ditch the 140.6? |
| 2015-12-08 2:50 PM in reply to: nc452010 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Is B2B about to be ruined? Well if you scroll to the Ironman store. They have events for Ironman B2B full and half...... |
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