General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Sharing Workouts...Unethical? Rss Feed  
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2016-03-28 2:28 PM

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Subject: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
This was brought up in another thread and I didn't want to hijack the thread so I thought I would start another thread.

What is your thoughts, opinions, stance, etc on sharing workouts. If you are working with a coach and they provide you with a workout is it top secret? Are you not allowed to discuss the details of the workout to others? I know many coaches collaborate with each other, use each others training sessions, etc. Nothing is 100% original anymore.

With how much athletes share info, chat training, post workouts on social media, make videos, etc it seems that including what you do for your sessions is routine now. Most pros share the specifics of the workout in their pages, videos, etc. Many people use Strava and post in the title what the workout was.

I don't see it as a problem for a variety of reasons.

- Posting a workout really doesn't say much at all
- There are no secrets within one single training sessions
- Most coaching is not done by session prescription but by many other characteristics; communication, balancing training load, understanding athlete personality, knowing when to hold and athlete back or push an athlete, mental training, etc.
- It gives the coach more exposure
- You can only re-invent the wheel so many times. How many different ways can you write out a long ride, tempo run, or threshold 100's in the pool?

I have a training blog that I am writing this year. The theme and guide is more on how to make training sustainable and incorporate strength training correctly. My coach allows me to post any specific details of the sessions or our communication in the blog. I write my own strength stuff along with consult with peers in my industry in that part. Everyone is on board for sharing and exchanging the information.

I can't see any problems to it, really honestly I am stumped on this one.

Edited by bcagle25 2016-03-28 2:39 PM


2016-03-28 2:38 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
Originally posted by bcagle25

This was brought up in another thread and I didn't want to hijack the thread so I thought I would start another thread.

What is your thoughts, opinions, stance, etc on sharing workouts. If you are working with a coach and they provide you with a workout is it top secret? Are you not allowed to discuss the details of the workout to others? I know many coaches collaborate with each other, use each others training sessions, etc. Nothing is 100% original anymore.

With how much athletes share info, chat training, post workouts on social media, make videos, etc it seems that including what you do for your sessions is routine now. Most pros share the specifics of the workout in their pages, videos, etc. Many people use Strava and post in the title what the workout was.

I don't see it as a problem for a variety of reasons.

- Posting a workout really doesn't say much at all
- There are no secrets within one single training sessions
- Most coaching is not done by session prescription but by many other characteristics; communication, balancing training load,
- It gives the coach more exposure
- You can only re-invent the wheel so many times. How many different ways can you write out a long ride, tempo run, or threshold 100's in the pool?

I have a training blog that I am writing this year. The theme and guide is more on how to make training sustainable and incorporate strength training correctly. My coach allows me to post any specific details of the sessions or our communication in the blog. I write my own strength stuff along with consult with peers in my industry in that part. Everyone is on board for sharing and exchanging the information.

I can't see any problems to it, really honestly I am stumped on this one.


Ben I think your attitude displays one of professional maturity. I can remember at one point when I was new, how I felt like every new workout I could get my hands on was golden! as i learned more about physiology, training & coaching, I realized that any single workout is not the golden ticket but that the way they are composed, adjusted, interwoven with other sessions...that's where the art comes in.

I agree with you, am happy to have my athlets share workouts (as long as they are also promoting me, not just themselves), and I'm also happy to learn from others their favorite ways to do "100s threshold..." or 5k paced repeats.
2016-03-28 3:07 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?

I'm not a coach.  I don't see a problem with sharing a workout.  I could go online or off my head a put together a few swims.  But it would be nothing like what you or the other coaches here are putting together.  You guys and gals are doing the background work on the athletes and tailoring it to them  So if they share it with someone else it becomes a bit generic to that next person. 

In fact I would probably post/blog or whatever, a few as a coach.  Kind of like giving free samples of candy out.

2016-03-28 3:22 PM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
I didn't see swim workouts as Intellectual property that's why I started that thread.
For people new to swimming it gives them an idea of what others are doing.

For those of use that have experience it helps us think of different ways to break up a workout and keep things interesting.
If any coaches want to use my work outs, they have my permission
2016-03-28 3:23 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?

Ben, I think you sum it up really well, and as I said in the other thread, individual training sessions are such a small part of the value we provide.  I love it when my athletes share information about their training with others.

You can see from Suzanne's post above, that she's fully supportive of this philosophy by those of us who coach for her too.

I'd be curious to hear from a coach or from an athlete who's worked with a coach who disagrees with this philosophy, and why they feel the way they do.

 

2016-03-28 3:34 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?

There is quite a bit of sharing that goes on between the coaches that we have used over the years.  Swim, run, and bike coaches share their workouts with a triathlon coach who oversees the program. None of the workouts have ever come with the idea that we can't share with others. The only exception is proprietary run protocols for the overspeed treadmill work.  We had to agree not to share those workouts.....so we don't.   They are passed on to the tri coach using RPE instead of exact speed/incline/duration.  I think it's kind of silly, but the establishment where the training takes place is serious about it.



2016-03-28 3:38 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

You guys and gals are doing the background work on the athletes and tailoring it to them  So if they share it with someone else it becomes a bit generic to that next person. 

In fact I would probably post/blog or whatever, a few as a coach.  Kind of like giving free samples of candy out.




Another great reason that I missed in my original post.

I also send out workout samples, or certain workouts in my newsletter. I describe the session, what the goal is, how to modify it (if needed), from there it can be executed and interpreted differently for many.
2016-03-28 3:43 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?

Originally posted by bcagle25 This was brought up in another thread and I didn't want to hijack the thread so I thought I would start another thread. What is your thoughts, opinions, stance, etc on sharing workouts. If you are working with a coach and they provide you with a workout is it top secret? Are you not allowed to discuss the details of the workout to others? I know many coaches collaborate with each other, use each others training sessions, etc. Nothing is 100% original anymore. With how much athletes share info, chat training, post workouts on social media, make videos, etc it seems that including what you do for your sessions is routine now. Most pros share the specifics of the workout in their pages, videos, etc. Many people use Strava and post in the title what the workout was. I don't see it as a problem for a variety of reasons. - Posting a workout really doesn't say much at all - There are no secrets within one single training sessions - Most coaching is not done by session prescription but by many other characteristics; communication, balancing training load, understanding athlete personality, knowing when to hold and athlete back or push an athlete, mental training, etc. - It gives the coach more exposure - You can only re-invent the wheel so many times. How many different ways can you write out a long ride, tempo run, or threshold 100's in the pool? I have a training blog that I am writing this year. The theme and guide is more on how to make training sustainable and incorporate strength training correctly. My coach allows me to post any specific details of the sessions or our communication in the blog. I write my own strength stuff along with consult with peers in my industry in that part. Everyone is on board for sharing and exchanging the information. I can't see any problems to it, really honestly I am stumped on this one.

 

I didn't think it was a big deal, until on 2 separate occasions I had coaches that I worked with, shared with and educated, jump ship, start their own gig and used my library/know how to do it. So when I see athletes who I fed to these coaches post my workouts on social media it rubs me the wrong way. Part of this is my fault as I'm a pretty trusting individual, and I should have had legal contracts/non-competes in place from the get go.

In the purest sense, I don't care if an athlete posts a big day on strava or fb with all the details. The rub is the coach who doesn't know what they are doing so they take the workouts for their own financial gain.

2016-03-28 4:37 PM
in reply to: #5174268


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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
I don't see the harm in one workout. If the coach is actively planning all of your work outs he/she should have a macro, mesco, micro and rest/taper cycles laid out.
2016-03-28 4:41 PM
in reply to: #5174298


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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
One workout is jujyst part of the overall program it doesn't tell anyone much
2016-03-28 5:30 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?

Even though I may have appeared to be taking a contrarian view in the other thread, I was only suggesting that you ask your coach before posting workouts online as matter of professional courtesy if nothing else.  I would consider it unethical if a coach asked you not to post something and you did anyway.

The swim coaches I currently work with have no problem with any of us logging our workouts online, but ask that we not photograph the workout boards and post them online.  I think that is a reasonable request.

Coming at it from the other direction, we've had a well-known coach work with our masters team for the past year.  We've had visitors from other masters teams  show up, pay the $7 drop in fee and then expect the equivalent of a 1-1/2 private lesson.  That is certainly not fair to the coach. 

Mark

 



2016-03-28 5:33 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
One of the coaches I was reading about offered a spouse for free or something like that last year- I can't remember the wording.

Seemed like a good idea to me for both accountability and the fact that there was probably sharing going on anyway.
2016-03-28 6:18 PM
in reply to: #5174299

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
Theft of services....
2016-03-28 6:36 PM
in reply to: RedCorvette


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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
Originally posted by RedCorvette

Even though I may have appeared to be taking a contrarian view in the other thread, I was only suggesting that you ask your coach before posting workouts online as matter of professional courtesy if nothing else.  I would consider it unethical if a coach asked you not to post something and you did anyway.

The swim coaches I currently work with have no problem with any of us logging our workouts online, but ask that we not photograph the workout boards and post them online.  I think that is a reasonable request.

Coming at it from the other direction, we've had a well-known coach work with our masters team for the past year.  We've had visitors from other masters teams  show up, pay the $7 drop in fee and then expect the equivalent of a 1-1/2 private lesson.  That is certainly not fair to the coach. 

Mark

 




This is how I see it. I like information to be free to contribute to society as a whole if people are willing to take time to read and learn then they should have access to it, but I also understand trade secrets and differing philosophies just ask your coach first it's their right to decide.
2016-03-28 7:58 PM
in reply to: runtim23

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
I responded in the other thread. I am a triathlon coach. I also made living professionally coaching swimming for number of years. I was assistant head coach and head age group coach on a 200 swimmer swim team. Instead of me repeating the whole response from the other thread, please examine the practices of USA Swimming and ASCA. The coaches are relentless at sharing all the details, from daily routines, recovery methods, workouts, planning, you name it. We are talking about world's best coaches, many many big names in our swimming.
You can get the presentations on the whole programs. Google "Chestertone High School Swim Program" and you will have an entire PDF presentation from a coach that coached all Whitaker brothers, Kyle, Aaron.........Michigan swimmers, some our country's best. It is free out there. Google Dave Salo, same will come up, PDF of the whole program and foundation of it at USC.
I encouraged our coaching staff to share and let our workouts be in public domain. There is nothing so magical and special about what anybody does. I really believe that knowledge sharing is good for the sport. Dropping the workouts in the thread here will inspire most to try and learn. That is just wonderful. It will help everybody expend the horizons. Trial and error is some of the most powerful ways to learn.
It is the knowledge that one has to have how to modify and apply the other coaches findings and methods that would be relevant to one's team or swimmer. Yes, you can't just copy it, you can try.......Vanderkaay's workout would kill most... You have to have enough knowledge to see the principles and patterns emerging from the block of training.....Knowing your weaknesses and how would that apply to your training, how can that be scaled to you.
Just several days ago, I watched Bowman's webinar on NBAC's season planning. Everything was presented. Yardage build, block focus, complete workouts with sets, objectives, all was out there in front of us. The microcycle was given for mid season. Hard workouts were listed, all the hard sets given, spacing between those, but one major detail was left out. The workouts between hard ones were filled either active recovery, technique/kicking/ pulling....
No detail was given. The devil was there. Bob eagerly shared the "rainbow mega set" or distance group 30x100 @1500m pace.....but not what they do during active recovery.. With a reason. Use your imagination, you have to do those just right in order to return the next day for a hard set and be recovered to do it.
I am sure you all get the picture. Triathlon coaches have to change and realize the way forward for the sport. Again, the depth of USA Swimming coaching staff is unbelievably deep and they are filled with confidence. They all share and encourage sharing, nobody is labeling anything as proprietary stuff. I am flattered to walk into HS swim practice to realize that the coach is holding a handful of my workouts in his hand.
By no means I say you share your workouts if your coach told you not to. If that was the agreement, you should honor that agreement unconditionally.
I encourage all my athletes to share and not hold back. It is good for the sport.
2016-03-28 10:10 PM
in reply to: atasic

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
Originally posted by atasic

I responded in the other thread. I am a triathlon coach. I also made living professionally coaching swimming for number of years. I was assistant head coach and head age group coach on a 200 swimmer swim team. Instead of me repeating the whole response from the other thread, please examine the practices of USA Swimming and ASCA. The coaches are relentless at sharing all the details, from daily routines, recovery methods, workouts, planning, you name it. We are talking about world's best coaches, many many big names in our swimming.
You can get the presentations on the whole programs. Google "Chestertone High School Swim Program" and you will have an entire PDF presentation from a coach that coached all Whitaker brothers, Kyle, Aaron.........Michigan swimmers, some our country's best. It is free out there. Google Dave Salo, same will come up, PDF of the whole program and foundation of it at USC.
I encouraged our coaching staff to share and let our workouts be in public domain. There is nothing so magical and special about what anybody does. I really believe that knowledge sharing is good for the sport. Dropping the workouts in the thread here will inspire most to try and learn. That is just wonderful. It will help everybody expend the horizons. Trial and error is some of the most powerful ways to learn.
It is the knowledge that one has to have how to modify and apply the other coaches findings and methods that would be relevant to one's team or swimmer. Yes, you can't just copy it, you can try.......Vanderkaay's workout would kill most... You have to have enough knowledge to see the principles and patterns emerging from the block of training.....Knowing your weaknesses and how would that apply to your training, how can that be scaled to you.
Just several days ago, I watched Bowman's webinar on NBAC's season planning. Everything was presented. Yardage build, block focus, complete workouts with sets, objectives, all was out there in front of us. The microcycle was given for mid season. Hard workouts were listed, all the hard sets given, spacing between those, but one major detail was left out. The workouts between hard ones were filled either active recovery, technique/kicking/ pulling....
No detail was given. The devil was there. Bob eagerly shared the "rainbow mega set" or distance group 30x100 @1500m pace.....but not what they do during active recovery.. With a reason. Use your imagination, you have to do those just right in order to return the next day for a hard set and be recovered to do it.
I am sure you all get the picture. Triathlon coaches have to change and realize the way forward for the sport. Again, the depth of USA Swimming coaching staff is unbelievably deep and they are filled with confidence. They all share and encourage sharing, nobody is labeling anything as proprietary stuff. I am flattered to walk into HS swim practice to realize that the coach is holding a handful of my workouts in his hand.
By no means I say you share your workouts if your coach told you not to. If that was the agreement, you should honor that agreement unconditionally.
I encourage all my athletes to share and not hold back. It is good for the sport.


Agree 100% and some great commentary.

I work in the fitness industry, the knowledge, workouts, coaching methodologies/philosophies, business tactics, etc are all openly discussed and encourage to share. We are here to help each other grow and mature. Triathlon coaching is the first time I have ever come across this intellectual proprietary stuff.


2016-03-28 10:14 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
Originally posted by bcagle25


Agree 100% and some great commentary.

I work in the fitness industry, the knowledge, workouts, coaching methodologies/philosophies, business tactics, etc are all openly discussed and encourage to share. We are here to help each other grow and mature. Triathlon coaching is the first time I have ever come across this intellectual proprietary stuff.


yoga and fitness routines can't be trademarked, nor can individual exercises. Doubtful that if brought to court a triathlon workout coudl be considered intellectual property either.

PHotos, verbiage to accompany the workout, videos...that stuff is intellectual property.
2016-03-29 10:18 AM
in reply to: AdventureBear

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?

It strikes me that any time you have entered into a contractual situation, it would probably be best to ask the providor for consent to share content. That said, one workout isn't the full training plan, no more than having a friend over to watch a movie is giving away your Netflix service. However, like I believe Mark was getting at, it is probably best to ask the coach how they would feel, since this is their income stream you are talking about. 

2016-03-29 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
http://www.usaswimming.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=1920&Alias=Rai...

This link above is likely to keep you all occupied with swimming for the next year plus. It is free. There is no "intellectual property" label to it. Even better, the coaches you will learn from there, far exceed by knowledge and experience what you will run into here on this board or in triathlon, at least when it comes to swimming. Take a note who the presenters are, their credentials speak for themselves. It will make you a good student of the sport.

ASCA with it's membership has more material but no need to go there until you exhaust above. ASCA is for a fee.
Than hit youtube, 2007 videos of MP, Peter Vanderkaay and others recorded in Bejing pool with 20 different cameras and 46 people around them making it happen, than releasing it in the public domain. Bowman shared that too, google it. He does not use the words "intellectual property" to it even though he is far more "intellectual" to swimming. Has given to the sport far more.

Edited by atasic 2016-03-29 11:34 AM
2016-03-30 9:16 PM
in reply to: #5174268


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Springboro, Ohio
Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
I enjoyed reading and learning about the different types of swim workouts because I had not swam competitively since high school (97-2000) and even then the longest we swam was 500m. But I think it's important to identify that coaching is not all about training plans or Xs and Os. Providing purpose and motivation is just as important if not more. But that is how some make a living and stealing their ideas is very unethical. I guess I can see both sides of the argument.

Out of curiosity, are most people that pay for a triathlete coach's services and expertise at a high level of competition? Or are they most likely to train non-competitive levels too?
2016-03-31 7:44 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sharing Workouts...Unethical?
I don't think there's an actual ethical issue here. I do think it is polite, kind and respectful to give credit to where the workout came from.

I swim in a masters group and a few years ago a local triathlon coach was joining the workouts. He would inquire after every set why do we do xxx? It turned out that after many workouts he would take that workout and post it on his social media forums as his workout. He actually took photos and video of our sessions and gave the impression that he was leading that workout which he wasn't. I found out when somebody saw me in a video and said, oh I didn't know you were coaching with xx. And I said, I'm not. Eventually word got back to the swim club and I heard that they told him to cut it out. He no longer swims with the group but I don't know if that was related. I don't think they care about the "intellectual property" of their workouts so much as they thought he was being a jerk.

In fact, that same masters group regularly (luckily not too often because they're tough) will come to practice and find that we're doing XX universities Friday sprint set or whatever.



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