General Discussion Triathlon Talk » cycling strategy Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2016-05-11 11:21 AM


249
10010025
Subject: cycling strategy
Hi all,
Wondering if anyone wants to weigh in on a general cycling question regarding hills. For the most part, is it best to attack the hills during a race, or conserve, and attack on the down hills.
I'm asking this in the perspective of an average 15-20 mile ride during a sprint Tri or Du. I'm 57, and it really isn't an option for me to "redline" the whole ride. I participate in one tri relay a year in which all I do is bike. During this event, I truly do "redline" the whole ride.
In the other events I am in , I am interested in balance, so I can get the most out of the ride, but still finish well with the run. So, I realize there are a million strategies out there, but in regard to hills when racing...looking for some general comments. I also try to keep cadence at 90-95.
Thanks!


2016-05-11 12:29 PM
in reply to: Burchib

User image

Elite
7783
50002000500100100252525
PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: cycling strategy

In general, my approach is: a little bit harder on the uphills, a little bit easier on the downhills.  The word "attack" never comes into the equation!

2016-05-11 1:15 PM
in reply to: axteraa

User image

Veteran
495
100100100100252525
Calgary
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
Originally posted by axteraa

In general, my approach is: a little bit harder on the uphills, a little bit easier on the downhills.  The word "attack" never comes into the equation!




My approach is to think "easy" on the uphills. Even doing this I'm probably going a little harder than I am on the flats.
I try to think "go hard" on the downhills. Doing this I'm still probably not pushing quite as hard as I do on the flats.
And when the uphill ends, don't reward yourself with a rest - get back up to speed right away. That's the reason not to go too hard on the uphill.
I agree that "attack" doesn't enter into the equation.

This article talks about running, not cycling, but it makes the point that going too hard on hills will cause you to expend too much energy.
http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/power-up-over-and-down-any...

I am assuming that we're not talking about a ride or race where drafting is involved.
Don

2016-05-11 1:17 PM
in reply to: Burchib

User image


1502
1000500
Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
My strategy is to live, train and race in really really really flat areas.
2016-05-11 1:22 PM
in reply to: Burchib

User image

Expert
2852
20005001001001002525
Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
How long are the hills? I have a tri coming up with two hills on the 20K course. I'm gonna stand on both .....twice (2 loop course). I figure each will take me 50-60 pedal strokes. I sure can't stomach sitting and spinning up THOSE hills. The bad part is they're back-to-back.

I've already accepted it's gonna suck.
2016-05-11 1:24 PM
in reply to: Burchib

User image

Fort Walton Beach
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
I try to keep my effort the same going uphill which means that I slow down. I just don't think that the amount of time I gain attacking the hills makes up for the time I loose running on fried legs.


2016-05-11 1:53 PM
in reply to: Burchib

User image

Member
1748
100050010010025
Exton, PA
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
Really depends on the hill and what your used to. I live in a hilly area, so I go up hills with 10-15% grade all the time and some that are up 25%.

small hills like 3-4% grade I stay aero and just put extra effort into.
If a hill gets to 15% or more, I'm pretty much going to be standing while climbing unless it's real short..
2016-05-11 2:20 PM
in reply to: Burchib

User image

Master
2802
2000500100100100
Minnetonka, Minnesota
Bronze member
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
I think aerodynamics would say push up the hills a bit (but don't blow up), and take it easier on the downhills. I like to push just a bit when starting a downhill to get up to speed quickly, then take it easy either coasting or easy pedaling. Don't fight the wind - remember, wind resistance goes up as the square of your velocity!
2016-05-11 2:43 PM
in reply to: axteraa

User image

Subject: RE: cycling strategy

Originally posted by axteraa

In general, my approach is: a little bit harder on the uphills, a little bit easier on the downhills.  The word "attack" never comes into the equation!

Pretty much this.  I choose gearing for the course that will allow me to spin up the hills, but I'm only just a tiny bit harder on the uphills, because, well, uphills are harder!   I try to spin as much as I can but power is always 20+ watts higher than what I would do on the flats.   On the downhill I keep as much power to the pedals as I can until I am going as fast as I am comfortable doing, then coast if it continues.

Unless I just want to swap out muscles or truly run out of gears (rare), I never stand and attack.  Those power spikes come back on the run.  Not in a good way

2016-05-11 5:48 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

User image

Subject: RE: cycling strategy

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by axteraa

In general, my approach is: a little bit harder on the uphills, a little bit easier on the downhills.  The word "attack" never comes into the equation!

Pretty much this.  I choose gearing for the course that will allow me to spin up the hills, but I'm only just a tiny bit harder on the uphills, because, well, uphills are harder!   I try to spin as much as I can but power is always 20+ watts higher than what I would do on the flats.   On the downhill I keep as much power to the pedals as I can until I am going as fast as I am comfortable doing, then coast if it continues.

Unless I just want to swap out muscles or truly run out of gears (rare), I never stand and attack.  Those power spikes come back on the run.  Not in a good way

The bolded is key.  A lot of times people just ride what their bike came with and don't even think about adjusting gearing to the terrain.  A lot of older bikes would come with 53/39 chainrings and an 11-25 cassette.  A typical recreational triathlete is going to have a hard time keeping their effort down trying to climb anything over 5% using 39/25 as their easiest gear.  Newer bikes may come with 50/34 chainrings and an 11-28 cassette, but sometimes that isn't enough given how steep some climbs might be or if the athlete is either not that fit, or carrying more weight.

 

2016-05-11 7:30 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Extreme Veteran
3025
2000100025
Maryland
Subject: RE: cycling strategy

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by axteraa

In general, my approach is: a little bit harder on the uphills, a little bit easier on the downhills.  The word "attack" never comes into the equation!

Pretty much this.  I choose gearing for the course that will allow me to spin up the hills, but I'm only just a tiny bit harder on the uphills, because, well, uphills are harder!   I try to spin as much as I can but power is always 20+ watts higher than what I would do on the flats.   On the downhill I keep as much power to the pedals as I can until I am going as fast as I am comfortable doing, then coast if it continues.

Unless I just want to swap out muscles or truly run out of gears (rare), I never stand and attack.  Those power spikes come back on the run.  Not in a good way

 

The bolded is key.  A lot of times people just ride what their bike came with and don't even think about adjusting gearing to the terrain.  A lot of older bikes would come with 53/39 chainrings and an 11-25 cassette.  A typical recreational triathlete is going to have a hard time keeping their effort down trying to climb anything over 5% using 39/25 as their easiest gear.  Newer bikes may come with 50/34 chainrings and an 11-28 cassette, but sometimes that isn't enough given how steep some climbs might be or if the athlete is either not that fit, or carrying more weight.

 

I have a standard crank, what cassette do you recommend for savageman? lol



Edited by dmiller5 2016-05-11 7:34 PM


2016-05-11 7:53 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

User image

Subject: RE: cycling strategy

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by axteraa

In general, my approach is: a little bit harder on the uphills, a little bit easier on the downhills.  The word "attack" never comes into the equation!

Pretty much this.  I choose gearing for the course that will allow me to spin up the hills, but I'm only just a tiny bit harder on the uphills, because, well, uphills are harder!   I try to spin as much as I can but power is always 20+ watts higher than what I would do on the flats.   On the downhill I keep as much power to the pedals as I can until I am going as fast as I am comfortable doing, then coast if it continues.

Unless I just want to swap out muscles or truly run out of gears (rare), I never stand and attack.  Those power spikes come back on the run.  Not in a good way

 

The bolded is key.  A lot of times people just ride what their bike came with and don't even think about adjusting gearing to the terrain.  A lot of older bikes would come with 53/39 chainrings and an 11-25 cassette.  A typical recreational triathlete is going to have a hard time keeping their effort down trying to climb anything over 5% using 39/25 as their easiest gear.  Newer bikes may come with 50/34 chainrings and an 11-28 cassette, but sometimes that isn't enough given how steep some climbs might be or if the athlete is either not that fit, or carrying more weight.

 

I have a standard crank, what cassette do you recommend for savageman? lol

Probably a mountain bike derailleur and a 11-42...you know...because you're very much a recreational triathlete.  

2016-05-11 8:59 PM
in reply to: Burchib

User image

Pro
5892
5000500100100100252525
, New Hampshire
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
As mentioned, it all depends on the hill.... Power hills (i.e. a few 100' long and less than 15%), I'll sprint up them. Longer, gradual climbs, I'll stay seated and spin up them.

It call comes down to how you used you are riding hills, types of hills and your physical ability. I was gifted with pretty explodes muscles (used to be a sprinter in my younger days), so I love power climbs and can usually make up a little time on competition. Longer climbs, and I'll suffer a bit more and may loose a few seconds...
2016-05-11 9:22 PM
in reply to: #5181278

User image


36
25
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
My view that a sprint triathlon is a short time trial In between a swim and a run. Therefore it's a functional threshold HR effort punctuated with anaerobic, sometimes painful pushes on the hills. I've never finished a sprint race thinking: "I went hard enough on the bike". ... Generally, it's: "I could have went harder on the bike into the wind or on the hills." I find the run hard and painful at the beginning no matter how hard I go on the bike.

Experienced time trialers work harder than thier competitors on the up-hills, because it's all about average speed over the course. Going 14 mph up a big hill vice 12 mph makes a big difference (even on a sprint)when almost everyone with minimal cycling experience can scream down the descent at short bursts of speed well in excess of 30mph. Think about how much longer you & and everyone else spends on the uphill. Triathlon is the same. It's just math. Ironically, My best 40Ks are in triathlons vice 40K time trials. Physically, you'd thing doing one after an endurance swim would make me a bit slower at least ...Psychologically I am able to go faster in a tri than a pure bike TT ... Because it means more to me; even though I am putting an all out effort on a stand alone TT, I dig deeper on the Tri.
2016-05-12 9:08 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: cycling strategy

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by axteraa

In general, my approach is: a little bit harder on the uphills, a little bit easier on the downhills.  The word "attack" never comes into the equation!

Pretty much this.  I choose gearing for the course that will allow me to spin up the hills, but I'm only just a tiny bit harder on the uphills, because, well, uphills are harder!   I try to spin as much as I can but power is always 20+ watts higher than what I would do on the flats.   On the downhill I keep as much power to the pedals as I can until I am going as fast as I am comfortable doing, then coast if it continues.

Unless I just want to swap out muscles or truly run out of gears (rare), I never stand and attack.  Those power spikes come back on the run.  Not in a good way

 

The bolded is key.  A lot of times people just ride what their bike came with and don't even think about adjusting gearing to the terrain.  A lot of older bikes would come with 53/39 chainrings and an 11-25 cassette.  A typical recreational triathlete is going to have a hard time keeping their effort down trying to climb anything over 5% using 39/25 as their easiest gear.  Newer bikes may come with 50/34 chainrings and an 11-28 cassette, but sometimes that isn't enough given how steep some climbs might be or if the athlete is either not that fit, or carrying more weight.

 

I have a standard crank, what cassette do you recommend for savageman? lol

I recommend spending the money to switch out to a compact.  

 

2016-05-12 9:36 AM
in reply to: 3mar

User image


1632
100050010025
, Kronobergs lan
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
Originally posted by 3mar

My strategy is to live, train and race in really really really flat areas.


I like that!


2016-05-12 10:31 AM
in reply to: Jason N

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: cycling strategy

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by axteraa

In general, my approach is: a little bit harder on the uphills, a little bit easier on the downhills.  The word "attack" never comes into the equation!

Pretty much this.  I choose gearing for the course that will allow me to spin up the hills, but I'm only just a tiny bit harder on the uphills, because, well, uphills are harder!   I try to spin as much as I can but power is always 20+ watts higher than what I would do on the flats.   On the downhill I keep as much power to the pedals as I can until I am going as fast as I am comfortable doing, then coast if it continues.

Unless I just want to swap out muscles or truly run out of gears (rare), I never stand and attack.  Those power spikes come back on the run.  Not in a good way

The bolded is key.  A lot of times people just ride what their bike came with and don't even think about adjusting gearing to the terrain.  A lot of older bikes would come with 53/39 chainrings and an 11-25 cassette.  A typical recreational triathlete is going to have a hard time keeping their effort down trying to climb anything over 5% using 39/25 as their easiest gear.  Newer bikes may come with 50/34 chainrings and an 11-28 cassette, but sometimes that isn't enough given how steep some climbs might be or if the athlete is either not that fit, or carrying more weight.

 

All good stuff here.

The slower you're going, the harder you're working.  This applies to both hills and headwinds.  That doesn't mean that you're attacking hills, but you're still best off by working a little harder when the terrain or wind causes you to slow down, and a little easier when it's giving you a push.  That's harder or easier compared to the intensity that you're aiming at for the race overall.  In general a lower variability index (VI) is desired for non-draft triathlons.  In basic terms, VI is how much your power (and HR and RPE indirectly) fluctuates throughout the ride.  Big spikes or valleys in how hard you're working will take more out of you than a steadier effort, leaving less for the run.

 

2016-05-12 11:17 AM
in reply to: ejshowers

User image


216
100100
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
Originally posted by ejshowers

I think aerodynamics would say push up the hills a bit (but don't blow up), and take it easier on the downhills. I like to push just a bit when starting a downhill to get up to speed quickly, then take it easy either coasting or easy pedaling. Don't fight the wind - remember, wind resistance goes up as the square of your velocity!


Exactly. If your gonna throw a few moments of extra power into the bike ride, physics says you'll gain more time by applying it on the uphills, because the higher speed of the downhill means more of the incremental power output is lost to aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance. For best results, press a little on the climbs, then recover on the downhills.
2016-05-12 11:52 AM
in reply to: 0

User image

Expert
2852
20005001001001002525
Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
Originally posted by rugerviking

My view that a sprint triathlon is a short time trial In between a swim and a run. Therefore it's a functional threshold HR effort punctuated with anaerobic, sometimes painful pushes on the hills. I've never finished a sprint race thinking: "I went hard enough on the bike". ... Generally, it's: "I could have went harder on the bike into the wind or on the hills." I find the run hard and painful at the beginning no matter how hard I go on the bike.

Experienced time trialers work harder than thier competitors on the up-hills, because it's all about average speed over the course. Going 14 mph up a big hill vice 12 mph makes a big difference (even on a sprint)when almost everyone with minimal cycling experience can scream down the descent at short bursts of speed well in excess of 30mph. Think about how much longer you & and everyone else spends on the uphill. Triathlon is the same. It's just math. Ironically, My best 40Ks are in triathlons vice 40K time trials. Physically, you'd thing doing one after an endurance swim would make me a bit slower at least ...Psychologically I am able to go faster in a tri than a pure bike TT ... Because it means more to me; even though I am putting an all out effort on a stand alone TT, I dig deeper on the Tri.


^ I like this response. I have a sprint coming up where I absolutely plan to stand and climb two hills (2X - it's a 2 lap course). Probably won't be over 80 pedal strokes to get over both. It would kill me (mentally) to go up those hills, sitting down, in such a short race.

I'm asking this with complete sincerity.........How hard could the 5K at the end be (if you climbed, aggressively, here and there? I'm hoping to be on course about 70 minutes.

Edited by nc452010 2016-05-12 11:53 AM
2016-05-12 2:10 PM
in reply to: nc452010

User image

Pro
5892
5000500100100100252525
, New Hampshire
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
How hard can it be? As hard as you want it to be. If you're goal is to finish, then kill it on the bike and don't worry about the run. If you want to absolutely fly on the run, then you need to save your legs. You can't go into the red zone and then unleash a strong run, just not possible to be really fast when your legs are full of lactic acid.
2016-05-12 2:20 PM
in reply to: audiojan

User image

Expert
2852
20005001001001002525
Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
Heck, I'm not really fast on any run. I've only run 5 sprints.....PR'ing the run in each.....trying my butt off to go as hard as I could go on the bike.

Isn't a sprint supposed to be run as an hour LT event?


2016-05-12 2:29 PM
in reply to: nc452010

User image

Pro
6582
50001000500252525
Melbourne FL
Gold member
Subject: RE: cycling strategy

Originally posted by nc452010
Originally posted by rugerviking My view that a sprint triathlon is a short time trial In between a swim and a run. Therefore it's a functional threshold HR effort punctuated with anaerobic, sometimes painful pushes on the hills. I've never finished a sprint race thinking: "I went hard enough on the bike". ... Generally, it's: "I could have went harder on the bike into the wind or on the hills." I find the run hard and painful at the beginning no matter how hard I go on the bike. Experienced time trialers work harder than thier competitors on the up-hills, because it's all about average speed over the course. Going 14 mph up a big hill vice 12 mph makes a big difference (even on a sprint)when almost everyone with minimal cycling experience can scream down the descent at short bursts of speed well in excess of 30mph. Think about how much longer you & and everyone else spends on the uphill. Triathlon is the same. It's just math. Ironically, My best 40Ks are in triathlons vice 40K time trials. Physically, you'd thing doing one after an endurance swim would make me a bit slower at least ...Psychologically I am able to go faster in a tri than a pure bike TT ... Because it means more to me; even though I am putting an all out effort on a stand alone TT, I dig deeper on the Tri.
^ I like this response. I have a sprint coming up where I absolutely plan to stand and climb two hills (2X - it's a 2 lap course). Probably won't be over 80 pedal strokes to get over both. It would kill me (mentally) to go up those hills, sitting down, in such a short race. I'm asking this with complete sincerity.........How hard could the 5K at the end be (if you climbed, aggressively, here and there? I'm hoping to be on course about 70 minutes.
There's going hard, then there's overcooking it. Climbing aggressively here and there for short periods shouldn't hurt you that much, especially if you push the downhill to get up to speed and take advantage of getting "small" and get some rest time.  You should be able to do a 5k 15-30s slower than open 5k time (depending on the weather compared to the open 5k).

FWIW, I never stand up an hammer a hill, I found it really burns my thighs compared to sitting staying aero as long as possible and keeping in my cadence range.  When I get too low in cadence then I sit up, keep the elbows low and pull them into the core to help climb at max speed possible without overdoing it.

2016-05-12 2:40 PM
in reply to: nc452010

User image

Extreme Veteran
3025
2000100025
Maryland
Subject: RE: cycling strategy

Originally posted by nc452010 Heck, I'm not really fast on any run. I've only run 5 sprints.....PR'ing the run in each.....trying my butt off to go as hard as I could go on the bike. Isn't a sprint supposed to be run as an hour LT event?

i'm below LT for most of the bike, and above it for most of the run...so not exactly

2016-05-12 8:31 PM
in reply to: dmiller5


1055
10002525
Subject: RE: cycling strategy
Depends on the hill. Short hills less than 15-30 seconds I'll power over them. No need to worry if the power spike isn't going to force me to dig deep. But the longer it is, the less power I'll use, but will usually at least push FTP up the hill.
2016-05-12 10:53 PM
in reply to: Burchib

User image


47
25
Subject: RE: cycling strategy

I like to think that that I'll slow down just enough that once I reach the top of the hill I am fresh enough to immediately get in a higher gear, put in a few powerful strokes to get up to speed. So for me, there would be a form of attack (of 5-6 pedal strokes) just when I crest the hill. If I'm not able to do that I know I went too hard.

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » cycling strategy Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Spin cycle vs life fitness stationary cycle

Started by Andr3w
Views: 2634 Posts: 4

2011-12-15 6:26 AM jsnowash

Cycling Strategy...?

Started by Fat2FitAggie
Views: 943 Posts: 5

2010-10-11 2:55 PM Dave Luscan

Indoor cycling vs real cycling Pages: 1 2

Started by Triceratops
Views: 5448 Posts: 46

2010-08-16 9:05 PM BbMoozer

Cycling in Aero and Cycle Races

Started by supa-powa
Views: 1015 Posts: 5

2009-07-13 4:28 PM 2xtreme

Food & Hydration Strategy Help Needed! - Olympic

Started by Eightman
Views: 1080 Posts: 6

2004-04-05 7:57 PM snikpos
RELATED ARTICLES
date : December 14, 2011
author : AMSSM
comments : 2
What is the recommended way to recover from a cycling-related lower back injury?
 
date : May 18, 2011
author : Troy Jacobson
comments : 3
How to get faster and still keep your job and family
date : March 20, 2009
author : mikericci
comments : 0
This month's fun and fast training will help you improve performance and raise your metabolism so that you are feeling a bit hungry all the time and really burning up those calories.
 
date : January 18, 2009
author : mikericci
comments : 2
Start getting fit and losing weight in the New Year with our beginner cycling program. This program can get you fit and ready to then start any of our sprint or olympic triathlon training programs.
date : October 8, 2008
author : FitWerx
comments : 0
How do you determine VO2 max for cycling? I have my HR zones from a time trial, but don't know how to get VO2 max out of that.
 
date : December 14, 2004
author : Don Magie
comments : 0
Known for its brutal cadences, nasty sprints and 12-minute hills, the spin class seems to be the perfect substitute for a raunchy ride outside. But is it?
date : September 1, 2004
author : owie
comments : 0
“Less is more,” is a common buzz phrase in endurance sports today. It refers to the trend of training less but focusing on intensity and quality rather than on quantity.
 
date : September 1, 2004
author : owie
comments : 0
You ride hard enough that you are working but not so hard that you can’t do the same thing the next day. 700 km or 400 miles a week.