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I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing
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 2016-08-18 6:57 PM |
Member  58  Connecticut |  Subject: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racingI'm watching the Olympic Tri on screen right now and just renewing my undying hatred of draft legal racing. If triathlon was a team event it would make sense, but it's not. There is no reason for a fast swimmer to hold back because they need to be in a pack and this isn't the Tour de France where we need everyone to hang out in a pack. I'm no expert but I'd like to hear others and why they like it/ hate it. It seems like the future, so I'd like to like it eventually. |
| 2016-08-18 8:26 PM in reply to: kmonie360 |
319 Sarasota, Florida | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing It's kind of team effort by country? After watching the women's cycling I get it. Seeing Annemeik crash then Mara Abbott lose at the last minute was hard to watch. It appeared to me 3 of them were working together drafting off of each other cycling their ranks out to recover some and gain on Abbot. It worked. At the last few seconds they stripped her of every medal. With all of that said, it certainly makes it more intense to watch. I kind of like it both ways to be honest but as a racer, I would prefer draft illegal. I feel it's more fair and less tactical. Not sure if I can even acknowledge drafting as a strategy. I suppose I'd give one a try some day. |
| 2016-08-18 8:59 PM in reply to: runtim23 |
Pro 15655  | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. |
| 2016-08-18 9:11 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 928 | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by Left Brain It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. I agree-- I love watching ITU races. Everything about that race today was awesome to watch. Love the Brownlee!! |
| 2016-08-18 10:05 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by Left Brain Think the visible effort and speed of guys like the Brownlee's is really obvious (and fun) to watch. Think the strategy part is harder for some to see. I didnt know what all was going on. It someone doesn't know, they'll have seen a pack of 10 guys up front and everyone else sitting about 75 seconds back. The medalists were the best runners out of those 10. That's overly simplistic, but unsure how to explain why.It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Strategy things that may help are why didn't the pack try more to catch up? Was it not in their best interest or could they not make that ground back up? It's certainly not going to be easy, but brings in another question of what happened to the domestique potential? Was there any thought of having Schoeman drop to help Murray get up front? Hard to argue with a Bronze, but Murray can actually match the Brownlee run speed. Should the Spanish guy have dropped to help Mola & Alarza? He ended up in 27th. |
| 2016-08-18 10:12 PM in reply to: #5195746 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing There is so much more fitness and psychology not to mention strategy in a draft legal triathlon. Why the hatred? I think it's incredibly exciting. Have you ever raced criterium races ? I think it you've raced it you'd like watching it more. So many things to pay attention to. |
| 2016-08-19 6:02 AM in reply to: kmonie360 |
1300 | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing I like it for the strategy and speed. It's fun to watch |
| 2016-08-19 6:14 AM in reply to: kmonie360 |
Expert 1183 Fort Wayne, IN | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing If the USAT goes to draft legal races, I will quit racing. I think draft legal races are inherently more dangerous with people riding in groups, especially with beginners thrown into the mix. I'm 58 and I've already had enough broken bones without the added help of other riders. |
| 2016-08-19 7:26 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by Left Brain It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. Edited by nc452010 2016-08-19 7:48 AM |
| 2016-08-19 8:18 AM in reply to: nc452010 |
| 319 Sarasota, Florida | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Somehow this is the first time hearing this debate but I like it. Hasn't changed my position. I like both. I kind of like the idea of having some strategy combined with fitness but agree it's riskier. I do notice when cars pass me by on the road it feels quite a bit easier for a brief moment. I'd lrather watch draft legal but would prefer racing illegal, but I feel racing an occasional draft legal race would be worth the experience. As long as I don't break anything. |
| 2016-08-19 8:25 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Dude - I am the ORIGINAL DUFFER....don't forget it....I know it's hard to hear for "triathletes". I promise you.....you can't hang onto the wheel of one of those guys for 100 yards.....and neither can 90% of the people who do non draft triathlon. I'll cut you some slack, you just don't know what you're talking about. Since you have power now, the numbers will make some sense to you.......those guys easily are in the 320-370W avg. power for a race like that....with max power pushing 1100-1400 watts. You're watching them race on their own power....believe it. The Brownlee's killed the rest of that front pack.......on the bike. Edited by Left Brain 2016-08-19 8:27 AM |
| 2016-08-19 8:35 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by Left Brain That's where things like Erik the Viking's videos can be helpful. He syncs up the power output to his race vids so we can see how hard they're working. The average means less to them than it does for non-draft. More a result of surge/attack frequency as opposed to holding a pace like we do. And it means less because of the power of the group draft. You have to make those surges or you'll have to do a lot more work on your own.Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Dude - I am the ORIGINAL DUFFER....don't forget it....I know it's hard to hear for "triathletes". I promise you.....you can't hang onto the wheel of one of those guys for 100 yards.....and neither can 90% of the people who do non draft triathlon. I'll cut you some slack, you just don't know what you're talking about. Since you have power now, the numbers will make some sense to you.......those guys easily are in the 320-370W avg. power for a race like that....with max power pushing 1100-1400 watts. You're watching them race on their own power....believe it. The Brownlee's killed the rest of that front pack.......on the bike. Edited by brigby1 2016-08-19 8:36 AM |
| 2016-08-19 8:36 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Dude - I am the ORIGINAL DUFFER....don't forget it....I know it's hard to hear for "triathletes". I promise you.....you can't hang onto the wheel of one of those guys for 100 yards.....and neither can 90% of the people who do non draft triathlon. I'll cut you some slack, you just don't know what you're talking about. Since you have power now, the numbers will make some sense to you.......those guys easily are in the 320-370W avg. power for a race like that....with max power pushing 1100-1400 watts. You're watching them race on their own power....believe it. The Brownlee's killed the rest of that front pack.......on the bike. You're either missing the point.....or ignoring it. Draft-legal is the great equalizer. It's kind of like putting restrictor plates on a NASCAR ride. There's no way the most fit rider can get away. And, that would-be advantage negated......is his only chance against a runner. Now, before you go "there", I realize they're all runners. But, obviously, some are better at it than others. And, if they're propped up against the stronger cyclists (again, some are better at it than others)....well.....you get what we get when we allow DL. There is no Chris Lieto of DL racing. The format negates that possibility. I always pulled for Lieto, thinking maybe one day he'd build a big enough lead on the bike that the runners couldn't catch him on the marathon. That's exciting to watch, too (IMO). That's not strategy?......deciding to burn a lot of matches on the bike....in hopes you can hang on in the run??? Heck, I think that's a great personal conundrum. To each his own. You're obviously looking at this from a spectator's standpoint. For the average spectator, no doubt DL racing is the bomb. |
| 2016-08-19 8:43 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain You're either missing the point.....or ignoring it. Draft-legal is the great equalizer. It's kind of like putting restrictor plates on a NASCAR ride. There's no way the most fit rider can get away. And, that would-be advantage negated......is his only chance against a runner. Now, before you go "there", I realize they're all runners. But, obviously, some are better at it than others. And, if they're propped up against the stronger cyclists (again, some are better at it than others)....well.....you get what we get when we allow DL. There is no Chris Lieto of DL racing. The format negates that possibility. I always pulled for Lieto, thinking maybe one day he'd build a big enough lead on the bike that the runners couldn't catch him on the marathon. That's exciting to watch, too (IMO). That's not strategy?......deciding to burn a lot of matches on the bike....in hopes you can hang on in the run??? Heck, I think that's a great personal conundrum. To each his own. You're obviously looking at this from a spectator's standpoint. For the average spectator, no doubt DL racing is the bomb. Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Dude - I am the ORIGINAL DUFFER....don't forget it....I know it's hard to hear for "triathletes". I promise you.....you can't hang onto the wheel of one of those guys for 100 yards.....and neither can 90% of the people who do non draft triathlon. I'll cut you some slack, you just don't know what you're talking about. Since you have power now, the numbers will make some sense to you.......those guys easily are in the 320-370W avg. power for a race like that....with max power pushing 1100-1400 watts. You're watching them race on their own power....believe it. The Brownlee's killed the rest of that front pack.......on the bike. No, you just don't watch enough DL racing. There have been many times when a rider breaks from the front pack.....Brownlee does it, Kanute did it at worlds last year,.....to say there is "no way the most fit rider can get away" is to not understand the race. The truth is......many of them can.....but do you want to burn the matches? Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. And no....they aren't just runners.....in fact, in DL racing if you can't swim you can't play......simple as that. Like I said, I'll cut you some slack because I know you know very little about DL racing........just keep in mind that those guys eventually go to non DL racing, and even long course.....and destroy the field. See Frodeno in IM and Gomex at HIM (soon to be IM). Here is a simple fact.......DL racers are the most fit and most proficient triathletes. (they HAVE to be to play in that game) Deal with it. YOu need to quit listening to people in the beer league triathlons.....they love to downplay what they can't do...it's part of the ego thing. Edited by Left Brain 2016-08-19 8:45 AM |
| 2016-08-19 8:45 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 216 | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by nickster I think draft legal races are inherently more dangerous with people riding in groups, especially with beginners thrown into the mix. I'm 58 and I've already had enough broken bones without the added help of other riders. That was kind of my thought. I'm perfectly capable of crashing my bike and hurting myself without any help. Edited by gary p 2016-08-19 8:50 AM |
| 2016-08-19 8:46 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing these must be the same people who hate the tour de france...and only watch the chrono de nations. |
| 2016-08-19 8:48 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Left Brain That's where things like Erik the Viking's videos can be helpful. He syncs up the power output to his race vids so we can see how hard they're working. The average means less to them than it does for non-draft. More a result of surge/attack frequency as opposed to holding a pace like we do. And it means less because of the power of the group draft. You have to make those surges or you'll have to do a lot more work on your own.Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Dude - I am the ORIGINAL DUFFER....don't forget it....I know it's hard to hear for "triathletes". I promise you.....you can't hang onto the wheel of one of those guys for 100 yards.....and neither can 90% of the people who do non draft triathlon. I'll cut you some slack, you just don't know what you're talking about. Since you have power now, the numbers will make some sense to you.......those guys easily are in the 320-370W avg. power for a race like that....with max power pushing 1100-1400 watts. You're watching them race on their own power....believe it. The Brownlee's killed the rest of that front pack.......on the bike. The surges KILLED Kanute yesterday. He's not a great runner to begin with.....but he got off the bike wiped out. When the Brownlees are healthy and working together they are an absolute force. |
| 2016-08-19 8:50 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain You're either missing the point.....or ignoring it. Draft-legal is the great equalizer. It's kind of like putting restrictor plates on a NASCAR ride. There's no way the most fit rider can get away. And, that would-be advantage negated......is his only chance against a runner. Now, before you go "there", I realize they're all runners. But, obviously, some are better at it than others. And, if they're propped up against the stronger cyclists (again, some are better at it than others)....well.....you get what we get when we allow DL. There is no Chris Lieto of DL racing. The format negates that possibility. I always pulled for Lieto, thinking maybe one day he'd build a big enough lead on the bike that the runners couldn't catch him on the marathon. That's exciting to watch, too (IMO). That's not strategy?......deciding to burn a lot of matches on the bike....in hopes you can hang on in the run??? Heck, I think that's a great personal conundrum. To each his own. You're obviously looking at this from a spectator's standpoint. For the average spectator, no doubt DL racing is the bomb. Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Dude - I am the ORIGINAL DUFFER....don't forget it....I know it's hard to hear for "triathletes". I promise you.....you can't hang onto the wheel of one of those guys for 100 yards.....and neither can 90% of the people who do non draft triathlon. I'll cut you some slack, you just don't know what you're talking about. Since you have power now, the numbers will make some sense to you.......those guys easily are in the 320-370W avg. power for a race like that....with max power pushing 1100-1400 watts. You're watching them race on their own power....believe it. The Brownlee's killed the rest of that front pack.......on the bike. No, you just don't watch enough DL racing. There have been many times when a rider breaks from the front pack.....Brownlee does it, Kanute did it at worlds last year,.....to say there is "no way the most fit rider can get away" is to not understand the race. The truth is......many of them can.....but do you want to burn the matches? Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. And no....they aren't just runners.....in fact, in DL racing if you can't swim you can't play......simple as that. Like I said, I'll cut you some slack because I know you know very little about DL racing........just keep in mind that those guys eventually go to non DL racing, and even long course.....and destroy the field. See Frodeno in IM and Gomex at HIM (soon to be IM). Here is a simple fact.......DL racers are the most fit and most proficient triathletes. (they HAVE to be to play in that game) Deal with it. YOu need to quit listening to people in the beer league triathlons.....they love to downplay what they can't do...it's part of the ego thing. I'm wondering what someone who obviously has a disdain for people who do triathlons is doing in a forum dedicated to people who do triathlons? Dude.....the Brownlees are fast. Your kid is supposedly fast (although I didn't see him in Rio). What does any of that have to do with you? I'm not going to start making disparaging LEO remarks......because my nephew's a decorated Chief. I really don't "get" you. We can disagree without the disparaging remarks. At least we should be able to. Edited by nc452010 2016-08-19 8:52 AM |
| 2016-08-19 8:57 AM in reply to: kmonie360 |
| 360 Ottawa, Ontario | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Comparing the two racing styles isn't quite apples to oranges, but at least two very different apples - crab apples to granny smith? Non-draft-legal racing is more honest racing. It's about who is the best swim-bike-runner and who can get from start to finish fastest. The fact that in DL racing you have domestiques who will wait around in transition so they can shepherd their teammates through the bike leg, burying themselves to leave their teammate fresh for the run... you can't really say the best triathlete wins the race in that scenario. That makes DL racing something quite different from what triathlon has traditionally been. Both DL and NDL are interesting and have their merits. Personally I find NDL more exciting to watch, but DL is interesting in different ways. I'll never race DL, but I enjoy watching both. |
| 2016-08-19 9:15 AM in reply to: SenatorClayDavis |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis Comparing the two racing styles isn't quite apples to oranges, but at least two very different apples - crab apples to granny smith? Non-draft-legal racing is more honest racing. It's about who is the best swim-bike-runner and who can get from start to finish fastest. The fact that in DL racing you have domestiques who will wait around in transition so they can shepherd their teammates through the bike leg, burying themselves to leave their teammate fresh for the run... you can't really say the best triathlete wins the race in that scenario. That makes DL racing something quite different from what triathlon has traditionally been. Both DL and NDL are interesting and have their merits. Personally I find NDL more exciting to watch, but DL is interesting in different ways. I'll never race DL, but I enjoy watching both. How much does that actually happens? If I'm getting the names right, Spain's 3rd best guy was up in the break while the better runners were back in the chase. The top 2 guys did do much of the work in the break while the 30-some guys in the chase group never caught up. Those two up there really don't get caught on the run when they have over a minute advantage either. I couldn't tell as much myself, but from others who know more it sounds like the better runners in the chase were trying to push more in getting back up or limiting the damage in the gap. |
| 2016-08-19 9:25 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis Comparing the two racing styles isn't quite apples to oranges, but at least two very different apples - crab apples to granny smith? Non-draft-legal racing is more honest racing. It's about who is the best swim-bike-runner and who can get from start to finish fastest. The fact that in DL racing you have domestiques who will wait around in transition so they can shepherd their teammates through the bike leg, burying themselves to leave their teammate fresh for the run... you can't really say the best triathlete wins the race in that scenario. That makes DL racing something quite different from what triathlon has traditionally been. Both DL and NDL are interesting and have their merits. Personally I find NDL more exciting to watch, but DL is interesting in different ways. I'll never race DL, but I enjoy watching both. How much does that actually happens? If I'm getting the names right, Spain's 3rd best guy was up in the break while the better runners were back in the chase. The top 2 guys did do much of the work in the break while the 30-some guys in the chase group never caught up. Those two up there really don't get caught on the run when they have over a minute advantage either. I couldn't tell as much myself, but from others who know more it sounds like the better runners in the chase were trying to push more in getting back up or limiting the damage in the gap. That virtually never happens in the men's race....it's like an urban legend that beer leaguers tell around the campfire. |
| 2016-08-19 9:44 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm wondering what someone who obviously has a disdain for people who do triathlons is doing in a forum dedicated to people who do triathlons? Dude.....the Brownlees are fast. Your kid is supposedly fast (although I didn't see him in Rio). What does any of that have to do with you? I'm not going to start making disparaging LEO remarks......because my nephew's a decorated Chief. I really don't "get" you. We can disagree without the disparaging remarks. At least we should be able to. Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain You're either missing the point.....or ignoring it. Draft-legal is the great equalizer. It's kind of like putting restrictor plates on a NASCAR ride. There's no way the most fit rider can get away. And, that would-be advantage negated......is his only chance against a runner. Now, before you go "there", I realize they're all runners. But, obviously, some are better at it than others. And, if they're propped up against the stronger cyclists (again, some are better at it than others)....well.....you get what we get when we allow DL. There is no Chris Lieto of DL racing. The format negates that possibility. I always pulled for Lieto, thinking maybe one day he'd build a big enough lead on the bike that the runners couldn't catch him on the marathon. That's exciting to watch, too (IMO). That's not strategy?......deciding to burn a lot of matches on the bike....in hopes you can hang on in the run??? Heck, I think that's a great personal conundrum. To each his own. You're obviously looking at this from a spectator's standpoint. For the average spectator, no doubt DL racing is the bomb. Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Dude - I am the ORIGINAL DUFFER....don't forget it....I know it's hard to hear for "triathletes". I promise you.....you can't hang onto the wheel of one of those guys for 100 yards.....and neither can 90% of the people who do non draft triathlon. I'll cut you some slack, you just don't know what you're talking about. Since you have power now, the numbers will make some sense to you.......those guys easily are in the 320-370W avg. power for a race like that....with max power pushing 1100-1400 watts. You're watching them race on their own power....believe it. The Brownlee's killed the rest of that front pack.......on the bike. No, you just don't watch enough DL racing. There have been many times when a rider breaks from the front pack.....Brownlee does it, Kanute did it at worlds last year,.....to say there is "no way the most fit rider can get away" is to not understand the race. The truth is......many of them can.....but do you want to burn the matches? Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. And no....they aren't just runners.....in fact, in DL racing if you can't swim you can't play......simple as that. Like I said, I'll cut you some slack because I know you know very little about DL racing........just keep in mind that those guys eventually go to non DL racing, and even long course.....and destroy the field. See Frodeno in IM and Gomex at HIM (soon to be IM). Here is a simple fact.......DL racers are the most fit and most proficient triathletes. (they HAVE to be to play in that game) Deal with it. YOu need to quit listening to people in the beer league triathlons.....they love to downplay what they can't do...it's part of the ego thing. Oh no......I have absolute respect for triathlon and the work that goes into it.....and I guess I've done a hundred or so myself over the years. The problem is that over the last 30 years I have undoubtedly developed a disdain for the egos of many people who do triathlon......like it's something special, or they are....nah. Relax.....it's Friday.....picking on beer league triathletes (see I even called them triathletes as a show of good will) who get their feelings hurt is made for Friday. Edited by Left Brain 2016-08-19 9:45 AM |
| 2016-08-19 9:58 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 261 | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I'm wondering what someone who obviously has a disdain for people who do triathlons is doing in a forum dedicated to people who do triathlons? Dude.....the Brownlees are fast. Your kid is supposedly fast (although I didn't see him in Rio). What does any of that have to do with you? I'm not going to start making disparaging LEO remarks......because my nephew's a decorated Chief. I really don't "get" you. We can disagree without the disparaging remarks. At least we should be able to. Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain You're either missing the point.....or ignoring it. Draft-legal is the great equalizer. It's kind of like putting restrictor plates on a NASCAR ride. There's no way the most fit rider can get away. And, that would-be advantage negated......is his only chance against a runner. Now, before you go "there", I realize they're all runners. But, obviously, some are better at it than others. And, if they're propped up against the stronger cyclists (again, some are better at it than others)....well.....you get what we get when we allow DL. There is no Chris Lieto of DL racing. The format negates that possibility. I always pulled for Lieto, thinking maybe one day he'd build a big enough lead on the bike that the runners couldn't catch him on the marathon. That's exciting to watch, too (IMO). That's not strategy?......deciding to burn a lot of matches on the bike....in hopes you can hang on in the run??? Heck, I think that's a great personal conundrum. To each his own. You're obviously looking at this from a spectator's standpoint. For the average spectator, no doubt DL racing is the bomb. Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Dude - I am the ORIGINAL DUFFER....don't forget it....I know it's hard to hear for "triathletes". I promise you.....you can't hang onto the wheel of one of those guys for 100 yards.....and neither can 90% of the people who do non draft triathlon. I'll cut you some slack, you just don't know what you're talking about. Since you have power now, the numbers will make some sense to you.......those guys easily are in the 320-370W avg. power for a race like that....with max power pushing 1100-1400 watts. You're watching them race on their own power....believe it. The Brownlee's killed the rest of that front pack.......on the bike. No, you just don't watch enough DL racing. There have been many times when a rider breaks from the front pack.....Brownlee does it, Kanute did it at worlds last year,.....to say there is "no way the most fit rider can get away" is to not understand the race. The truth is......many of them can.....but do you want to burn the matches? Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. And no....they aren't just runners.....in fact, in DL racing if you can't swim you can't play......simple as that. Like I said, I'll cut you some slack because I know you know very little about DL racing........just keep in mind that those guys eventually go to non DL racing, and even long course.....and destroy the field. See Frodeno in IM and Gomex at HIM (soon to be IM). Here is a simple fact.......DL racers are the most fit and most proficient triathletes. (they HAVE to be to play in that game) Deal with it. YOu need to quit listening to people in the beer league triathlons.....they love to downplay what they can't do...it's part of the ego thing. Oh no......I have absolute respect for triathlon and the work that goes into it.....and I guess I've done a hundred or so myself over the years. The problem is that over the last 30 years I have undoubtedly developed a disdain for the egos of many people who do triathlon......like it's something special, or they are....nah. Relax.....it's Friday.....picking on beer league triathletes (see I even called them triathletes as a show of good will) who get their feelings hurt is made for Friday. It sounds like your perspective has been clouded by egotistical a-holes who are easily found in NDL triathlon. Pretty sure they can be found in DL triathlon as well. And just because there are some a-holes in NDL doesn't make it better or worse than DL triathlon. I don't understand OP's hatred of draft legal racing. I don't do it mainly because I really don't ride in groups that much so I would need to ride more in groups and practice being that close to other riders. Doesn't mean I hate DL racing. It's just not something I do. |
| 2016-08-19 10:17 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis Comparing the two racing styles isn't quite apples to oranges, but at least two very different apples - crab apples to granny smith? Non-draft-legal racing is more honest racing. It's about who is the best swim-bike-runner and who can get from start to finish fastest. The fact that in DL racing you have domestiques who will wait around in transition so they can shepherd their teammates through the bike leg, burying themselves to leave their teammate fresh for the run... you can't really say the best triathlete wins the race in that scenario. That makes DL racing something quite different from what triathlon has traditionally been. Both DL and NDL are interesting and have their merits. Personally I find NDL more exciting to watch, but DL is interesting in different ways. I'll never race DL, but I enjoy watching both. How much does that actually happens? If I'm getting the names right, Spain's 3rd best guy was up in the break while the better runners were back in the chase. The top 2 guys did do much of the work in the break while the 30-some guys in the chase group never caught up. Those two up there really don't get caught on the run when they have over a minute advantage either. I couldn't tell as much myself, but from others who know more it sounds like the better runners in the chase were trying to push more in getting back up or limiting the damage in the gap. That virtually never happens in the men's race....it's like an urban legend that beer leaguers tell around the campfire. Just thinking about the selection process, not sure there would be all that many domestiques in the first place. From what I know, often times the first two get in because they were essentially fast enough for medal potential. These are less likely to work with someone else to get them up there, more in the case mutual beneficial situations. Someone has to go fast enough in a qualifier to make a third spot available, which could be a domestique selection. The US has Katie Zaferes who seemed to have made it by a set of medal potential criteria though. (Placing well enough in the Rio test event vs having lots of team crit or road race experience). So I don't know if there are all that many domestiques even in the race. Some sure, but doesn't seem like the race is loaded with them like a bike team would be. |
| 2016-08-19 10:23 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: I have an insane hatred of draft legal racing Originally posted by Left Brain Yeah, that's what I'm trying to see and recognize better. Before they get well into the run 30-45 minutes later too. It's helped following along some of the ST TdF discussions as there are some solid racers putting up predictions with some rationalization and then analyzing what happened after. It helps watching here having the Brownlees in it as you know they're working at it the whole way through. These two just hate sitting in. I know others do, but it's easier to see that they really get after it.Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Left Brain That's where things like Erik the Viking's videos can be helpful. He syncs up the power output to his race vids so we can see how hard they're working. The average means less to them than it does for non-draft. More a result of surge/attack frequency as opposed to holding a pace like we do. And it means less because of the power of the group draft. You have to make those surges or you'll have to do a lot more work on your own.Originally posted by nc452010 Originally posted by Left Brain I think you forget, sometimes, YOU are a duffer. I think draft legal has its place. But, I'm a fan of people doing races under their own power. DL muddies that. For that reason, I am not so much of a fan. I went from 1st to 2nd wheel in a ride last Saturday......and watched my HR go down 21 bpm and my power numbers plummet. I was still going the same speed. I like fast over long, any day. But, I'd like to think I'm watching someone race under their own power......and not sucking the wheel of the ones with the real power. It's the best triathlon racing there is. Lots of strategy and great racing. Do you have any idea what it is to run a 30:00 10K after a bike that easily hits 1100-1400 watts out of the turns? I've watched IM winners get schooled by 16-17 year old Jr. elites in a draft legal sprint race. It's FAST.....which is what racing is supposed to be. Long course triathlon is a joke as far as I'm concerned....the field is full of duffers. Dude - I am the ORIGINAL DUFFER....don't forget it....I know it's hard to hear for "triathletes". I promise you.....you can't hang onto the wheel of one of those guys for 100 yards.....and neither can 90% of the people who do non draft triathlon. I'll cut you some slack, you just don't know what you're talking about. Since you have power now, the numbers will make some sense to you.......those guys easily are in the 320-370W avg. power for a race like that....with max power pushing 1100-1400 watts. You're watching them race on their own power....believe it. The Brownlee's killed the rest of that front pack.......on the bike. The surges KILLED Kanute yesterday. He's not a great runner to begin with.....but he got off the bike wiped out. When the Brownlees are healthy and working together they are an absolute force. |
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