General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Biking Heart Rate Puzzle Rss Feed  
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2017-01-06 12:57 PM

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Subject: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
I got a heart rate monitor a couple of weeks ago. What I notice is that when I run for an hour at around a threshold pace, my mean heart rate is 140. When I bike with the around the same perceived effort, my mean heart rate is 100. I tried doing some interval type biking (I'm on the trainer) and even then I have a hard time getting my heart rate up. What's going on? I feel like the bike isn't helping my cardio at all.


2017-01-06 2:10 PM
in reply to: b2run


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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
You mentioned threshold pace. Just asking, but you have tested that to determine what it is? If not, to me threshold pace is a pace that would be hard, probably too hard to hold a conversation. You are really working hard at this pace (IMHO). So....if you are on the bike, and you are working to the point where you cannot say more than a couple words here and there, and your heart rate is at 100, then I'm not sure what to say. Since I don't know your age, also hard to tell where 100 falls compared to the really rough guideline of MHR.

My totally free but possibly useless advice would be that you are working a lot harder on the run than you perceive, or not as hard as you think on the bike.
2017-01-06 3:01 PM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
I would do some threshold testing as outlined here in the forums for both bike and run and then see where you fall out. Too little information to tell from your post but I would actually suspect you are not pushing as hard on the bike as you think. Again, I would perform the testing. If you can't find the testing protocol let me know.
2017-01-06 7:33 PM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
I don't really know if it's a true threshold pace. I was just trying to put the same amount of effort into the run as into the bike. I based it on how I felt and my breathing.
I'm 61 and have been doing triathlons for 4 years.
2017-01-06 7:35 PM
in reply to: dandr614

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
Originally posted by dandr614

I would do some threshold testing as outlined here in the forums for both bike and run and then see where you fall out. Too little information to tell from your post but I would actually suspect you are not pushing as hard on the bike as you think. Again, I would perform the testing. If you can't find the testing protocol let me know.


You're probably right but I seem to have a hard time pushing harder on the bike. I'm not sure why. I come from a running background so perhaps I don't have as powerful or efficient biking muscles.
2017-01-07 8:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle

HR is a trailing indicator of how much oxygen your muscles need.  It doesn't go up because you're exerting yourself, it goes up because your muscles etc. need more oxygen and your cardiovascular system is responding.  Higher HR, faster breathing, etc.   And HR and breathing feed into "perceived effort". I've heard plenty of stories where run HR is high but bike HR is low, for the same perceived effort.  And often, it's the perception of effort that is wrong and not the HR. 

Are you really pushing yourself just as hard on the bike?  Running uses many more muscle groups than cycling (which is mostly legs, and maybe just quads if you're a "masher"),  Running uses your arms, your glutes, your hamstrings, quads, even calf muscles in ways cycling does not.  So it's not a surprise that running feels a lot harder, but is it, objectively?

Are you familiar with the 10 point RPE scale and zones?  I did some searching and like the image posted below for discussion purposes. There are many like it, and the terms vary a bit, but it's pretty mainstream.

If you're at "threshold pace" then you're in zone 4, which should be RPE 7 to 8, which means you can speak sentences but not paragraphs. Long sentences = RPE 7, short sentences / phrases = RPE 8, word or two = RPE 9.  Or, for me:

RPE 7 = moderate marathon pace
RPE 8 = hard marathon pace, half marathon pace, 10K pace
RPE 9 = 5K pace
RPE 10 = last K of a 5K

I am going to go out on a limb and say that your "threshold run, one hour, 140 avg HR" that's actually a RPE 5 or 6 "tempo" run, and that you're not pushing yourself as hard on the bike.  And watch your form when cycling.  You may be mashing the pedals like a stairstep machine, which would be using mostly quads. I also find that there is a "tipping point" on the bike, where below a certain pace like 17 mph my HR is low, but just trying to push what seems a bit higher (20 mph) and my HR goes up by 20, 30 bpm.  That's the "threshold" we talk about.

What is your running pace at HR 140?  What is your cycling speed at HR 100?   If you push yourself to HR 140 on the bike, what speed is that? Do you also experience a tipping point? 

(this image looked much better locally, and I have to go now, so you may need to zoom to read it)



Edited by brucemorgan 2017-01-07 8:56 AM




(rpe-with-zones.jpg)



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2017-01-07 11:49 AM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
Originally posted by brucemorgan

HR is a trailing indicator of how much oxygen your muscles need.  It doesn't go up because you're exerting yourself, it goes up because your muscles etc. need more oxygen and your cardiovascular system is responding.  Higher HR, faster breathing, etc.   And HR and breathing feed into "perceived effort". I've heard plenty of stories where run HR is high but bike HR is low, for the same perceived effort.  And often, it's the perception of effort that is wrong and not the HR. 

Are you really pushing yourself just as hard on the bike?  Running uses many more muscle groups than cycling (which is mostly legs, and maybe just quads if you're a "masher"),  Running uses your arms, your glutes, your hamstrings, quads, even calf muscles in ways cycling does not.  So it's not a surprise that running feels a lot harder, but is it, objectively?

Are you familiar with the 10 point RPE scale and zones?  I did some searching and like the image posted below for discussion purposes. There are many like it, and the terms vary a bit, but it's pretty mainstream.

If you're at "threshold pace" then you're in zone 4, which should be RPE 7 to 8, which means you can speak sentences but not paragraphs. Long sentences = RPE 7, short sentences / phrases = RPE 8, word or two = RPE 9.  Or, for me:

RPE 7 = moderate marathon pace
RPE 8 = hard marathon pace, half marathon pace, 10K pace
RPE 9 = 5K pace
RPE 10 = last K of a 5K

I am going to go out on a limb and say that your "threshold run, one hour, 140 avg HR" that's actually a RPE 5 or 6 "tempo" run, and that you're not pushing yourself as hard on the bike.  And watch your form when cycling.  You may be mashing the pedals like a stairstep machine, which would be using mostly quads. I also find that there is a "tipping point" on the bike, where below a certain pace like 17 mph my HR is low, but just trying to push what seems a bit higher (20 mph) and my HR goes up by 20, 30 bpm.  That's the "threshold" we talk about.

What is your running pace at HR 140?  What is your cycling speed at HR 100?   If you push yourself to HR 140 on the bike, what speed is that? Do you also experience a tipping point? 

(this image looked much better locally, and I have to go now, so you may need to zoom to read it)




Thanks. That's great info. I have just found out about rpe and am still trying to get a feel for it. I think you may be right about my perceived effort being off. My run rate is hard to judge right now as they don't clear the roads and sidewalks here so I'm running on snow but typically my effort is equivalent to about a 4:50 minutes per km for a 10 km run. My bike is on the trainer now so I can't give you a pace but I think it would be about 2 minutes per km pace. Again, I'm estimating.
2017-01-07 1:56 PM
in reply to: b2run

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle

If you are not that familiar with HR training, perhaps you should use LTHR and do the related run and bike testing (linked article).  This will provide you with your approx. HR Lactate Thresholds and HR zones that are calculated from each test. BT has a the LTHR zone calculator (see 'Hello, your name'/Settings/Training log settings/HR zone manager). The testing can be done outside or inside (trainer).  There will be a difference in the threshold results as running supports more body weight and uses more muscles.  I have about a 6-8 bpm difference, I knew someone that I once trained with that had ~20 bpm difference.

I used HR on the bike trainer only for a short time then I switched over to virtual power, IMHO a better way to train on the trainer if you plan on doing intervals as it removed the lag issues. requires a few items such as an ANT+ speed sensor, ANT+ USB Dongle and a laptop/PC, software and a trainer that has a known speed vs power curve. If you plan on just doing long sustained trainer rides then HR can be used, still not ideal.

 

 

2017-01-07 3:52 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
Originally posted by Donto

If you are not that familiar with HR training, perhaps you should use LTHR and do the related run and bike testing (linked article).  This will provide you with your approx. HR Lactate Thresholds and HR zones that are calculated from each test. BT has a the LTHR zone calculator (see 'Hello, your name'/Settings/Training log settings/HR zone manager). The testing can be done outside or inside (trainer).  There will be a difference in the threshold results as running supports more body weight and uses more muscles.  I have about a 6-8 bpm difference, I knew someone that I once trained with that had ~20 bpm difference.

I used HR on the bike trainer only for a short time then I switched over to virtual power, IMHO a better way to train on the trainer if you plan on doing intervals as it removed the lag issues. requires a few items such as an ANT+ speed sensor, ANT+ USB Dongle and a laptop/PC, software and a trainer that has a known speed vs power curve. If you plan on just doing long sustained trainer rides then HR can be used, still not ideal.

 

 




Thanks. I'll try that. I was thinking of trying to switch to power on the bike but the price of power meters is hindering me.
2017-01-07 7:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle

Originally posted by b2run
Originally posted by Donto

I used HR on the bike trainer only for a short time then I switched over to virtual power, IMHO a better way to train on the trainer if you plan on doing intervals as it removed the lag issues. requires a few items such as an ANT+ speed sensor, ANT+ USB Dongle and a laptop/PC, software and a trainer that has a known speed vs power curve. If you plan on just doing long sustained trainer rides then HR can be used, still not ideal.

Thanks. I'll try that. I was thinking of trying to switch to power on the bike but the price of power meters is hindering me.

You might have missed the "virtual" part of "virtual power".   Virtual power is wattage calculated by software based on what kind of trainer you have and RPM, and not by an actual power meter measuring device.  TrainerRoad was one of the first, and still one of the best.  Check it out: https://www.trainerroad.com/virtual-power

Cost is about $10 a month, once you have all the stuff Donto listed.  Works really well for indoor training.  Of course, once you're training inside with power, you want power outside too.  But it's an easy way to get into power, and nothing you buy is throw-away. 



Edited by brucemorgan 2017-01-07 7:26 PM
2017-01-08 8:44 AM
in reply to: b2run

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
Is all of your biking (since getting the HRM) on a trainer? I think it's pretty common for heart rate at the same perceived effort to be lower inside than it is outside on a bike.

Go for a hilly ride with some mountain bikers that are a little bit better than you are. Or go for a road ride and try to keep up with a group that pushes you. I wouldn't be surprised if that gets your heart rate well above 100. The experience and awareness of riding hard in these types of situations, where it is easier to push yourself, will help you push harder when you're alone or on the trainer.

My $0.02
Don


2017-01-08 6:58 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle

Originally posted by brucemorgan

Originally posted by b2run
Originally posted by Donto

I used HR on the bike trainer only for a short time then I switched over to virtual power, IMHO a better way to train on the trainer if you plan on doing intervals as it removed the lag issues. requires a few items such as an ANT+ speed sensor, ANT+ USB Dongle and a laptop/PC, software and a trainer that has a known speed vs power curve. If you plan on just doing long sustained trainer rides then HR can be used, still not ideal.

Thanks. I'll try that. I was thinking of trying to switch to power on the bike but the price of power meters is hindering me.

You might have missed the "virtual" part of "virtual power".   Virtual power is wattage calculated by software based on what kind of trainer you have and RPM, and not by an actual power meter measuring device.  TrainerRoad was one of the first, and still one of the best.  Check it out: https://www.trainerroad.com/virtual-power

Cost is about $10 a month, once you have all the stuff Donto listed.  Works really well for indoor training.  Of course, once you're training inside with power, you want power outside too.  But it's an easy way to get into power, and nothing you buy is throw-away. 

Yes virtual, not a real power meter.

I use MaximumTrainer program, its only $15 per year.  Yes it is limited on the rides available but comes with the BT Winter Cycling Program built in as well as a few other rides from a coach.  I also have Marc & Shane's Power Mentoring 13 week long workouts for it.  That's all I need!

2017-01-09 6:48 AM
in reply to: donw

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
Originally posted by donw

Is all of your biking (since getting the HRM) on a trainer? I think it's pretty common for heart rate at the same perceived effort to be lower inside than it is outside on a bike.

Go for a hilly ride with some mountain bikers that are a little bit better than you are. Or go for a road ride and try to keep up with a group that pushes you. I wouldn't be surprised if that gets your heart rate well above 100. The experience and awareness of riding hard in these types of situations, where it is easier to push yourself, will help you push harder when you're alone or on the trainer.

My $0.02
Don


Yes, I'm on the trainer. We don't get chinooks out here in Ontario. I will definitely try that once the season opens up again. I wondered also whether my effort was greater when I was outside.
I tried another testing run and bike and this time my mean heart rate on the bike was 110. I paid more attention to my breathing and changed positions when my muscles got uncomfortable. I think my muscle/joint discomfort is what is decreasing my effort on the bike.
2017-01-10 2:28 PM
in reply to: b2run

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
Since I'm not that far away from you in age I thought I'd pull out my heart rate monitor. I got on my indoor trainer and over an hour gradually turned up the resistance to 260 watts. At that resistance I was having a moderate amount of difficulty maintaining an 80rpm cadence. I then went out and ran at a similar perceived level of exertion. I got my heart rate up to 125 at a 9 minute a mile pace. The indoor trainer took almost 260 watts to do it. My heart rate has always been slower on the bike. Interesting thing is I'm usually in the 95 percentile biking on an open flat road. Running, I'm probably at the 60th percentile.

2017-01-10 8:40 PM
in reply to: NeilsWheel

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
Originally posted by NeilsWheel

Since I'm not that far away from you in age I thought I'd pull out my heart rate monitor. I got on my indoor trainer and over an hour gradually turned up the resistance to 260 watts. At that resistance I was having a moderate amount of difficulty maintaining an 80rpm cadence. I then went out and ran at a similar perceived level of exertion. I got my heart rate up to 125 at a 9 minute a mile pace. The indoor trainer took almost 260 watts to do it. My heart rate has always been slower on the bike. Interesting thing is I'm usually in the 95 percentile biking on an open flat road. Running, I'm probably at the 60th percentile.




I was right with you until you talked about percentiles. Care to elaborate?
2017-01-10 10:49 PM
in reply to: b2run

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
Sorry that was ambiguous. If I was to enter a race on a flat course on a bike I would probably finish in the top 5%. If I was to enter a running race I would be lucky to finish in the top 40%. At the same relative exertion I'm accomplishing much more on the bike than on the run relative to other competitors

Some of us are more cut out to be bikers than runners.


2017-01-11 4:27 PM
in reply to: NeilsWheel

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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
Originally posted by NeilsWheel

Sorry that was ambiguous. If I was to enter a race on a flat course on a bike I would probably finish in the top 5%. If I was to enter a running race I would be lucky to finish in the top 40%. At the same relative exertion I'm accomplishing much more on the bike than on the run relative to other competitors

Some of us are more cut out to be bikers than runners.


Got it. Thanks.
2017-01-11 8:47 PM
in reply to: b2run


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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
You cannot compare your heart rate on the bike and the run. Entirely two different numbers at threshold.
2017-01-11 9:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Biking Heart Rate Puzzle
I used to think the same thing. I also thought 171 was a peak HR for me.

Then I started TrainerRoad, did their ftp test, and learned I can bike a TON harder than I thought.

Now I sustain HRs in the 170s.



Edited by alath 2017-01-11 9:36 PM
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