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2017-08-05 10:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by k9car363

Marc,

What about ABP?  I was under the impression that the passport is a major step forward in anti-doping efforts.

The use a technique called micro dosing.

This article shows some of the gains they get http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french-television-report-shows-how-micro-dosing-can-beat-uci-biological-passport/

I was at the TDF two week ago with one of the teams. They were tested many times, especially one of the GC contenders. One team doc said he has seen 4x per day and was the most he had seen. They came in the team bus post race once. People you meet in the villages say the same thing. They have been turned off by the scandals and the tour has lost some appeal. Although it is still nuts. So I think cycling is trying a bit.

 

I'm not sure I fully buy into what the television report found.  Yes, on the surface it appears there were substantial performance gains, but there was no control group, there is no indication what the fitness level of the participants was before the experiment, nor how long they had been "amateur athletes."  The thing that is more worrisome to me than the performance gains is that , "Analysis of the blood profiles of the eight athletes who took part in the experiment demonstrated that they would not have fallen foul of the biological passport's parameters."  Although WADA said the television study didn't follow ABP guidelines - which in my mind calls the whole television study into question.

The one thing that remains clear is there are those who will continue to try and find ways to circumvent the fules and sadly, enforcement of the rules always seems to be one step behind.



Edited by k9car363 2017-08-05 10:59 AM


2017-08-05 11:33 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Devil's advocate here - new to discussion of doping, but how is it cheating? The description here for what EPO does for the production of red blood cells sounds like it aids an athlete when he/she is putting in the workouts, still their bodies (unlike drafting or deflating tires which is not the result of their bodies).

Probably side effects, I wouldn't do them, but maybe that's another way to distinguish the most serious from the non-professional or participating non-athletes (reference to another BT thread).

I'm sure I'm not the first to ask how they are different from someone working harder, eating better, training at altitude etc. but wondering...
2017-08-05 1:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by k9car363

I'm not sure I fully buy into what the television report found.  Yes, on the surface it appears there were substantial performance gains, but there was no control group, there is no indication what the fitness level of the participants was before the experiment, nor how long they had been "amateur athletes."  The thing that is more worrisome to me than the performance gains is that , "Analysis of the blood profiles of the eight athletes who took part in the experiment demonstrated that they would not have fallen foul of the biological passport's parameters."  Although WADA said the television study didn't follow ABP guidelines - which in my mind calls the whole television study into question.

The one thing that remains clear is there are those who will continue to try and find ways to circumvent the fules and sadly, enforcement of the rules always seems to be one step behind.




watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_AtDD3GWVQ
2017-08-06 11:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Please don't trust everything I type because I am not qualified in these subjects but from what I have read and going back to the anabolic steroid example, they basically make you a different person. The steroid penetrates the cell nucleus and reprograms them through their DNA. First hand, what I saw in my workout partner I don't believe to be possible through natural work and nutrition. He was benching ~5-10 lbs more than me and in six months he was benching more than I ever reached with 4 years of consistent hard work, protein and creatine. What I noticed on the weights, is my initial gains were quick but they would taper off and become very difficult to continue but he smashed these limits as if he surpassed his genetic potential. I imagine endurance dope does the same? Can you exceed your genetic potential without them? You bring an interesting argument of tweaking your own body for improvement so perhaps it shouldn't be cheating but I'd like to know how much work it would take to get there if even achievable without them.

Edited by runtim23 2017-08-06 11:40 AM
2017-08-06 12:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Might redress that it is egocentric to assume my equal is the same material as myself. My workout buddy never did cardio and was a crap runner. I've always felt my chemistry and meso-ecto body type make me suited 70% aerobic and 30% anaerobic activity. I also remember reading in a book explaining muscle belly could be an indicator of your potential where one which bulked more towards the join could grow larger than a leaner one. Anyway, this is perhaps off topic, but it is a conversation that interests me slightly since its a new mad science to me in the other style of competition.
2017-08-06 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by k9car363

I'm not sure I fully buy into what the television report found.  Yes, on the surface it appears there were substantial performance gains, but there was no control group, there is no indication what the fitness level of the participants was before the experiment, nor how long they had been "amateur athletes."  The thing that is more worrisome to me than the performance gains is that , "Analysis of the blood profiles of the eight athletes who took part in the experiment demonstrated that they would not have fallen foul of the biological passport's parameters."  Although WADA said the television study didn't follow ABP guidelines - which in my mind calls the whole television study into question.

The one thing that remains clear is there are those who will continue to try and find ways to circumvent the fules and sadly, enforcement of the rules always seems to be one step behind.

watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_AtDD3GWVQ

Marc,

Cool, thank you for that link.  I watched the first 5-minutes and will sit and watch it later this afternoon when I have some time.

As you know, I come from a swimming background.  I remember back to just before the '72 Munich games when I was a 14-year old kid, sitting in team meetings where Jim Montrella, our coach, would rail against the doping going on in East Germany and Russia (USSR).  He continued his denunciations through the '76 games when East Germany showed up with a female swim team of what looked like men in women's suits.  Anyone who even implied something was amiss was immediately dismissed as a "poor sport."  The media was especially quick to brand any athlete of prominence who cried foul as a "sore loser."  I've seen and been touched by doping my entire athletic career in a sport that until very recently had no real opportunity for any financial gain.  I don't question that doping/cheating is there on some level at every triathlon event.  When you start talking about sports where the financial gains run into the millions of dollars, it is simply foolish to not accept that doping/cheating is present.  Heck, it'a badge of honor in NASCAR to say, "If you aren't cheating you aren't trying."

While I agree it appears cycling is making a concerted effort to clean things up - and you can tell on some level they are having an impact simply by results, I fear those efforts have simply forced people to become even more sophisticated in their doping regimens.  It certainly hasn't ended speculation that certain athletes are juiced - look at all the talk surrounding Froomy.

What's the answer?  I have no idea.  But it's an answer worth finding.

How does all this apply to how tough 35-39 is?  Hmmm, not sure it does, maybe it's nothing more than just the next generation of good athletes aging up.



Edited by k9car363 2017-08-06 12:45 PM


2017-08-09 9:02 PM
in reply to: #5225337


318
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Sarasota, Florida
Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
I enjoyed some of that video. Hope to finish it but im sure its frustrating for those that take this sport seriously. Right now my dream dope is just being able to budget a decent road bike ha.
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