General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Help with Kickr snap and power Rss Feed  
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2017-11-30 8:49 AM

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Subject: Help with Kickr snap and power
First, a little background so I can explain my question. I have been doing triathlons for about 7 years now and really enjoy the iron distance races. I just finished IM Florida which was my 4th full and plan to do Lake Placid next year. I don't say any of this to brag but to point out that I am not brand new to triathlon training or biking in particular. I have never actually trained with power until getting the Kickr. I had previously done an FTP test on a computrainer just to test fitness but that was it.

With all of that said, here is my question (or problem.) I just can't seem to get my calibration correct on the machine. When I tested my FTP on the computrainer a few years ago I came out right at 200 watts. I weight about 155-160 lbs so this has me with a power to weight ratio in the 2.8 range. I am no premier cyclist but I do average 5:30-5:45 on an IM bike course so this seems about right to me.

I set up my Kickr and did the FTP test last July while in the middle of IM training and my FTP on the Kickr came out to 187. This brings my power to weight in around 2.66. While I was surprised it dropped like it did, I trained at this FTP and just figured it was a difference in equipment. However, last night I did the 45 min FTP test on Zwift after calibrating the Kickr and my FTP was 167. I examined my 20 minute effort and my HR averaged 170 so I know I was pushing my hardest on the test. This would put me in the 2.38 power to weight range.

I know I am not a superbiker,but I also have been doing this long enough to know that I can hold well over 167 watts for an hour. On top of that, it just "feels" like the resistance can be all over the place while I ride. Sometimes 200 watts will feel like an average FTP and other times I feel like I can't hold it for 15 seconds.

Has anyone run into these problems and can offer a possible solution?


2017-11-30 1:15 PM
in reply to: 0

Master
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, California
Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power

The first thing I suggest is to plug in your Kickr, then open up the Wahoo Utility app on your phone and see if there are any firmware updates.  Wahoo has made some significant changes.  You could definitely have consistency problems if you're on an old version.

Next thing: do you have another power meter?  If so, you can compare with the Kickr.  They don't need to show exactly the same value, but the offset should stay the same over time (low variance).

With the Snap, make sure you are inflating your tire to the same psi before every workout, and same # of turns on the knob when you put the bike on the trainer.

Also last thing - if you get the new firmware, warm up the trainer for about 10 minutes.  Then use the Wahoo Utility app to do the Advanced Spindown again.  If you don't see Advanced Spindown on there, read through this thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Advanced_Spin_Down_KICKR%3F%3F%3F_P6267458/

Hope some of that helps.

After the firmware update + advanced spindown, you shouldn't do the advanced spindown again.  You only need the "normal" spindown for future workouts - make sure you warm up the Kickr for about 10 mins first.  If your room temp stays the same, you can even get away with doing it less frequently - I just perform it once a week.



Edited by spudone 2017-11-30 1:18 PM
2017-11-30 7:14 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power
this is probably not your problem but maybe take a peek

I have a Kickr that drops the connection very often. So I will be holding say 200 watts but it will drop say every minute for 5 serconds, so at the end my average is 185 because of the drop, although I was holding 200. Pretty easy to see, look at your Garmin file

Just a long shot.
'
PS : Using Bluetooth there are no drops, it's and Ant+ thing

Edited by marcag 2017-11-30 7:16 PM
2017-12-01 6:51 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power
Thanks to both of you for the tips.

I do have the ANT+ connectivity issue and that was a major pain when trying to do any races or group rides because a 5 second drop would mean I lose all momentum and get dropped. I played around with Bluetooth last night and did see that problem fixed.

I also used the advice from Master and looked into the advanced spindown. I do not have the advanced spindown option on my app (all apps and firmware are up to date) but I did download the Wahoo Utility and found the "initial spindown" option. However, it stated the initial spindown was already successful and to just perform a regular spindown.

I didn't have much time to play around with the feel and resistance but it still didn't seem right. I noticed a lot of posts online where people state their brake strength is shown as 1.8 to 1.9 in many cases. Mine was showing as 1.01 to start and after I did the spindown was shown as 0.72. I am not sure if this is right but it seems much lower than what other people are getting.

I plan to give it another go today to see where we stand but otherwise I will just have to use what the program is giving me and train using those numbers. The only problem is it makes it impossible to do those fun races and group rides. When I have to max out to hold 300 watts and others are able to hold 300 as an FTP and we are all in the "D" or "E" races it makes it impossible.

I have seen some posts about loosening or tightening the roller after the spindown by half a turn one way or the other to try to get more lifelike results. Has anyone tried this?
2017-12-02 7:24 AM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power


do you have a power meter ? I have not done this yet, but I know it can be done, it's to use the PM to measure and control power of the Wahoo.

Kind of sucks that you need a PM to make an expensive unit work properly but it's a workaround until you find the problem
2017-12-02 8:29 AM
in reply to: clemson05


17

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power
I just got a snap about three weeks ago and had the same problem as you. I kept reading about the advanced spindown but could not find it on my Wahoo Fitness app, I could only find the normal spindown. Then I read the thread above in this discussion and all you have to do is go into the Wahoo Fitness app, go into your sensors, click on the Kickr Snap, click spindown, then all you have to do is tap your phone screen five times in a row (make sure you tap where the description of the 'regular spindown') and then the advanced spindown will show up below the 'regular spindown' and you will be able to perform the advanced. I have no idea why they don't actually tell you about this as it took me searching the internet and forums to find it but that will help you get to the advanced spindown.

Hope that helps you out!


2017-12-04 8:12 AM
in reply to: wei5209

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Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power
QUOTE]Originally posted by marcag



do you have a power meter ? I have not done this yet, but I know it can be done, it's to use the PM to measure and control power of the Wahoo.

Kind of sucks that you need a PM to make an expensive unit work properly but it's a workaround until you find the problem


I do not have a power meter or I would definitely test it against my Kickr to see how far off we are talking.


Originally posted by wei5209

I just got a snap about three weeks ago and had the same problem as you. I kept reading about the advanced spindown but could not find it on my Wahoo Fitness app, I could only find the normal spindown. Then I read the thread above in this discussion and all you have to do is go into the Wahoo Fitness app, go into your sensors, click on the Kickr Snap, click spindown, then all you have to do is tap your phone screen five times in a row (make sure you tap where the description of the 'regular spindown') and then the advanced spindown will show up below the 'regular spindown' and you will be able to perform the advanced. I have no idea why they don't actually tell you about this as it took me searching the internet and forums to find it but that will help you get to the advanced spindown.

Hope that helps you out!


This is a great help. I still have not found the "advanced spindown" option so I will give this a shot.

On a side note, I rode Friday afternoon and attempted to do the 45 minute FTP test again in Zwift. I rode this time with my IPad via Bluetooth instead of ANT+ over my MAC. This did fix the dropped connection discussed above so that was a my first victory. During the warm up it has you spin up to 225 watts or so and hold it for 2-3 minutes. Again, it felt almost like I was pushing to anaerobic exhaustion just holding this for 3 minutes. I aborted the test because I knew things still didn't seem right.

However, I decided to still ride a little without any workouts loaded. Thus, the machine was not in ERG mode but standard ride along mode. I noticed after about 10 minutes I was averaging well over the 165 watts my FTP test last showed so I decided to finish 20 minutes at what felt like an FTP test pace. For the 20 minutes I rode (keep in mind the first 10 I didn't even know I was doing an FTP test) my average watts came out to 183. The final 10 minutes where I actually decided to make it a 20 minutes FTP test were held at 188 watts. Seems strange but taking the unit out of ERG mode and just riding for 20 minutes gave me an average of 15-20 watts more power than the test in ERG mode.
2017-12-04 2:10 PM
in reply to: wei5209

Master
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, California
Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power

Originally posted by wei5209 I just got a snap about three weeks ago and had the same problem as you. I kept reading about the advanced spindown but could not find it on my Wahoo Fitness app, I could only find the normal spindown. Then I read the thread above in this discussion and all you have to do is go into the Wahoo Fitness app, go into your sensors, click on the Kickr Snap, click spindown, then all you have to do is tap your phone screen five times in a row (make sure you tap where the description of the 'regular spindown') and then the advanced spindown will show up below the 'regular spindown' and you will be able to perform the advanced. I have no idea why they don't actually tell you about this as it took me searching the internet and forums to find it but that will help you get to the advanced spindown. Hope that helps you out!

 

They hide it because they really only want you to do it once.  But I brought it up because when their firmware went from 2.2.x to 2.3.x, there were some big changes and I found it helpful to reset everything from scratch.

2017-12-04 2:15 PM
in reply to: clemson05

Master
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Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power

One more tip: try putting your bike in the big chainring and a middling gear, if you haven't alread.  That gets the flywheel going faster and you'll have more of a "road feel".

If you're in the small chainring, the brake will be providing more resistance, and you'll feel less smooth pedalling and more work, even though the watts may show the same number.

2017-12-05 7:33 AM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power
I was able to find the "advance spindown" feature after all of the tips in this thread and it made a huge difference.

I performed the advanced spindown last night and then was able to ride a race on zwift for just under 5 minutes. Unfortunately my wife kicked me out of the room after only 5 minutes of riding but I was able to test it all out.

In the 4:52 of racing I averaged 235 watts with a HR in the mid 160's. I wasn't able to try the erg mode to see if it felt different than before but this is a good sign. Previously I was only able to hold about 225 watts for 2-3 minutes at most and was completely exhausted with an average HR of around 180. I will play around with the erg mode tonight and perhaps do the 45 min FTP test.
2017-12-06 7:14 AM
in reply to: clemson05

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Subject: RE: Help with Kickr snap and power
One final follow up to this topic.

I was able to do another FTP test last night after finding the "advance spindown" feature and calibrating my Kickr.

Last night my FTP registered at 205 watts. This is right in line with where my previous FTP tests had come out on the computrainer and about what I expected with a power to weight ratio around 2.92.

Thanks to everyone on this thread for your help. Now I just need to ride the thing and up that FTP!


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