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2018-01-03 9:01 PM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Originally posted by Rollergirl

Can you be a member of several Groups? I joined the grey guys/gals last year and will join this year as soon as it's open but I figured I need all the feedback/help I can get, and I like beer...

NAME: Nathalie. From Europe (born in France, lived in England, now live in Sweden)

STORY:
Unlike many triathletes, I do not have a running, cycling or swimming background. My sports were team games (soccer, european handball) and martial arts: judo as a kid and karate, which I started at the age of 36.I thought karate was going to be it my last sport but years of soccer had taken their toll on my knees and after about 6 years and 3 bad knee injuries, I had to give up. (My knees are very unstable, they ”break” at any abrupt change of direction...( a little exagerated but basically that’s that)) A couple of years of not doing much (expect getting bigger) , then I signed up for a sprint triathlon in May 2014 and started training in september 2013.At this point in the story, many people will say ”and then I was hooked and never looked back”. Well no, not me. Did my first race in May 2014, signed up again for the same one in 2015, then in 2016. I enjoyed racing, but my goals were only to finish and not finish last. After each race I told myself, ”oh, that was fun, next year I’m going to do so much better.” Trained seriously for a couple of weeks and then got bored with it and stopped, only started training for the next race a couple of weeks before. All the while putting on weight....Then last year, did my usual race in May and the official photographer took a photo of me which was horrible. I looked so fat and untrained. This was the turning point. I had to lose weight. So I started using an app (myfitnesspal) to register my food and exercice and realised (although I knew it of course) that if I wanted to eat a lot, I’d have to move a lot more. So I started training more. There was another sprint (very close to home) which I was signed up for and I focused on that and decided to give it my best shot. Trained seriously all Summer, lost weight and the race at the end of August was a real success. Beat my usual time by 15 minutes, finished 4th of all women of all ages, some much younger than me. Had a lot of fun and was on a high for weeks afterwards. Now, I can say I am hooked!

FAMILY STATUS: One husband, one son, one running partner (aka dog) and 2 cats
CURRENT TRAINING: On Winter maintenance with a run focus. my weakest sport
2017 RACES: 2 sprints one in May when I was fat and one in August when I was fast
RACES PLANNED FOR 18: My usual local one in May is not happening so I'll have to travel to races, which I have never done. Planning on doing 4 or 6 sprints. next year I will do an Oly
BEER PREFERENCE: Lager (is that beer?)
WEIGHT LOSS: 26 Pounds since the end of May. I am good now. just have to maintain that.


Nathalie - kudos on the weight loss and yes - Lager is one of my favorite types of beers! Glad to have you in the group and i hope you will stay even when your other group opens!



2018-01-03 9:05 PM
in reply to: firebert

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Originally posted by firebert

Hi All!  Hoping you'll have me back again this year, even though the first at least 3 months of it are going to be sitting on the sidelines watching.

NAME: firebert (John)

STORY: Was a mediocre runner in High School (though recently dug up my times - I'd KILL to be that fast again!), fell off the wagon in college, then started running 5ks - and constantly injuring myself - somewhere in my late 20s.  Took a couple years off running to get married, buy a house, have a baby, all that grownup nonsense and put on enough weight I was feeling miserable.  Everyone has their own individual number past which things get rough.  For me that number was somewhere around 200lbs.  Started running again to shed the weight and guess what - injury cycle started again.  My wife (former NCAA swimmer) started doing Tris and convinced me to try since "It's all cross training".  Took forever to be able to swim 1/4 mile without stopping (like a year of Y classes) and I'm still painfully slow in the water but I'm getting better.  That was a few seasons ago and I'm happy to report I've done my entire triathlon career with BDAS.

FAMILY STATUS: Married to an awesome inspirational triathlete wife with one daughter (8yo).  My daughter is a runner (which she gets from me) and an amazing swimmer (which she gets from my wife).  If we could just convince her to learn to ride her bike....

CURRENT TRAINING: Zero.  Will change that soon.

RACES PLANNED FOR 18: None yet, things are up in the air until April or March then I can start planning.  Likely road races only but we'll see.

BEER PREFERENCE: New England IPA's.  I live close enough to Trillium I can restock whenever I'm feeling rich (last trip - 20 cans, $85)

WEIGHT LOSS: I think of this more as weight maintenance.  We have great eating habits around the house and although I've put on weight since stopping exercise in the Fall, it's not been terrible.  

WHAT WILL MAKE ME A GOOD MENTEE:  I'm everyone's biggest fan   Seriously I love seeing people happy after their own accomplishments, it reminds me of the happiness I have when I complete a race or a hard workout, and motivates me to do more.  The happiness is contagious!






So glad youre back John.

BDASers - I live about 30 miles from John - he is one of the nicest guys you would ever want to meet. He does such a good job of cheering people on (especially slow people like me) and I'm glad that he is back with the group.

2018-01-03 9:10 PM
in reply to: newf112

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Originally posted by newf112

NAME: Mike 

STORY: I was a swimmer as a kid, migrated into soccer as I got older. In 2007, just after my 35th birthday, I broke my ankle playing soccer and went into a funk. Put on a bunch of weight, 45 lbs, moving me up over 240 lbs. When my ankle healed I decided to start running (easy running) to try and get back into shape. Ran my first 10k in 2008. In 2010 I was challenged to a try-a-tri, loved it and haven’t looked back. In 2015, my wife and I separated and things went downhill again. Training was put aside but I still managed to complete a 70.3 in 2016 and 2017. I tried to do Eagleman in 2015 a couple of months after my separation, but the heat knocked me out (literally) on the run. After completing Muskoka in July 2017, I had to put my focus into work and family. My mother, now 76 years old, reached a point where she could not live on her own. I spent most of the summer and fall building a space for her in my house. My job has me on the road a fair bit, so it took several months, and it’s still not finished… but she’s moved in. Now I can finally start proper training again. I’m hoping to drop all the excess weight I put on last year and really have a good performance In Atlantic City.

FAMILY STATUS: Separated 2+ years, 2 kids (12 & 8), dating an awesome woman who may or may not have moved in (I still haven’t figured it out!

CURRENT TRAINING: Just getting started again. Current plan has me walking/running 2x, swimming 2x, spinning 2x and one strength session per week. Haven’t actually done that yet, but that what the plan says!

2017 RACES: Ottawa 1/2 marathon and Muskoka 70.3. Awful season, too much beer, not enough training

RACES PLANNED FOR 18: Ottawa 1/2 Marathon in May, Atlantic City 70.3 in September. Probably a few local sprints and Olympics along the way

BEER PREFERENCE: Blonde and amber, occasional wheat beer in the summer. I’ve been more into cider these days, less carbonation, so less bloating!

WEIGHT LOSS: I put an extra 20-25 lbs on last fall, on top of the 20 I already had to lose. If I can manage, I want to drop 40 lbs before AC in September

WHAT WILL MAKE ME A GOOD MENTEE: I want this. I want a good year and I’m not in a place to do it all on my own. A mentor would be perfect to keep me accountable and hopefully on track!


Mike - This group was founded by a fellow Canuk (SP) so I'm happy to have you! Let's work on the weight loss together - I need to lose 50.

How was the Muskoka 70.3?
2018-01-03 9:21 PM
in reply to: Qua17

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
HI All:

Sorry for the long series of posts but I wanted to make sure that everyone was welcomed to the BDAS. It's a great group because of the people in it!

We all need to take a page out of gretchen's book and post our yearly goals. Really give these some thought before posting them. Like the founder of the group once said - Don't make a goal unless you're gonna try like hell to accomplish it. So try to post those sometime this week.

Personally, I'm looking for a way to get my butt back in gear. No matter what - I can't seem to get going. While I've had slumps before (usually after big races), I've never had one like this. So, I've made it my goal to work out just one time this week. And I promise I will make it happen or else I'll have to give myself another Coors Lite Penalty

For those of you on the east coast - good luck with the storm (We're supposed to get 12 inches of white stuff.

Tonight's beer of choice - Pilsner Urquell! A nice Lager for a cold night!
2018-01-03 10:58 PM
in reply to: #5232499

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Hi all! A few of us have continued posting on the old site but finally got pointed in the right direction.
I’ll post a bio tomorrow when I get a chance! Stay warm all and get ready to dig out for those of us on the east coast!
2018-01-04 6:04 AM
in reply to: aviatrix802

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

2018 goals:  set PRs in total distance for cycling and swimming, and get back to running in some form.  My totals from the past seven years:

So I'm targeting 3,000 miles and 180,000 yards for cycling and swimming, and whatever I can manage on the treadmill/road.  I started a couch-to-5K plan yesterday (4 x 30" jogs @ 5.5 mph on a treadmill) and it went fine, slow build up to 30' over about 5 months (I'm using the conservative plan).  I also need to be consistent in completing my strength and flexibility training.  I find that goes out the window as time gets constrained, and it leads me down the path to injury.  I've had a good two months of consistent training in Nov and Dec, just need to keep it up.

If all goes well, I should be able to race my sprint in June (vs. just trying to finish it) and see where it takes me from there. 

I also am going to get an updated bike fit and I'm hoping a new roadie in the spring.  We'll see how the finances look then.



2018-01-04 6:59 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Mike! So happy to hear you are starting to run again!! Hope your back holds up.

I raced with (really, against) my 17yo niece last year at her first sprint tri. It was super fun having her out on the course...and, not too shabby that I beat her too :P !! Racing with family is great!
2018-01-04 7:01 AM
in reply to: drfoodlove

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Yesterday afternoon I managed to step outside in the frigid world for a short 30' walk. The dog was so excited and had to smell EVERYTHING, so it wasn't fast by any means. But, it was a land based activity that didn't aggravate my foot/ankle.

Still waiting to hear from the insurance company about the MRI.
2018-01-04 7:53 AM
in reply to: drfoodlove

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

Originally posted by drfoodlove Yesterday afternoon I managed to step outside in the frigid world for a short 30' walk. The dog was so excited and had to smell EVERYTHING, so it wasn't fast by any means. But, it was a land based activity that didn't aggravate my foot/ankle. ...

That's GREAT news Gretchen!  Might be just a walk but 30 minutes is a long time on a busted foot.

2018-01-04 10:56 AM
in reply to: #5233968


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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

NAME: Mark

STORY: Overweight. Lost weight by running. Run marathons. Gain weight. Run. More marathons. Arthritis in hips Hip resurfacing s. Rehab by swimming. Dabble at cycling. Might as well try a tri.

FAMILY STATUS: Married.

CURRENT TRAINING: Bad cold. Should be good in a few days. Can run, swim and bike about any morning. In Florida.

2017 Races Ragnar, assorted 5ks.

RACES PLANNED FOR 18: I'm not far from Clermont. They do a boatload of tris over there.

BEER PREFERENCE: Bitter and Dark

WEIGHT LOSS: 20 lbs. needed

WHAT WILL MAKE ME A GOOD MENTEE: I will do whatever you tell me to do, drill Sargent.
-----
2018-01-04 11:51 AM
in reply to: [email protected]

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

Got in 90' on the trainer today, mostly tempo (70-80% FTP) work.  Last interval was almost 25' long.  BORRRRRIIIINNNNNGGG.  I'm beginning to watch the 2017 TdF on my DVR.  Don't tell me who won. 



2018-01-04 12:10 PM
in reply to: [email protected]

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

Welcome Mark!  You've come to the right place.  Let us know what you want to know and when you want to get started. preferably at least 12 weeks prior to a race you have signed up for

2018-01-04 12:12 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Got in 90' on the trainer today, mostly tempo (70-80% FTP) work.  Last interval was almost 25' long.  BORRRRRIIIINNNNNGGG.  I'm beginning to watch the 2017 TdF on my DVR.  Don't tell me who won. 

I'll bet you can guess....hahahahaha.

Meanwhile I'm holding my breath waiting for the Tour Down Under to start.  That one actually gets NBCSN coverage!

2018-01-04 12:26 PM
in reply to: firebert


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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Ok, question for the group. I'm in the market for a bike trainer so that I can ride inside for now. I would like to get something used and hopefully rather inexpensive. I've been looking on Facebook marketplace and Craigslist with not a lot of luck so far. Any other ideas? Also, I guess my biggest question has to do with the quick release. Does it just hook right to your bike or do you have to take your quick release rod out in favor of another one? That's the only thing that has me confused. Anyway, sorry for the complete rookie question but I'm hoping to get riding very soon. Thanks in advance for any help.

Eric
2018-01-04 12:43 PM
in reply to: EHouse20

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

Hi Eric - I'll throw my $0.02 in for now I'm sure everyone else has info as well. 

to answer the QR question, you do need to swap the QR on your bike out for one that comes with the trainer.  This will have nubs or something on the business ends of it to fit inside the trainer stand, which then should lock down on it to keep you in place.

For inexpensive used trainers I'd look at eBay.  The only thing to be wary of is that trainers, particularly fluid ones, do wear over time.  We've put 100's of hours into our CycleOps fluid trainer with no change in it's performance, but it's something that people told me to look out for so I pass that on to you.  Our 100s of hours has been winter riding for a few years and one 70.3 which my wife did nearly all of her bike training on the trainer.  So someone who's used one for 90% of their bike training for a few full IMs might have worn theirs more than we have ours.

There are basically 3 types of trainers, speaking about how the resistance is generated.  the old school is the wind trainer - basically you turn a large fan.  I don't think anyone makes these any longer and I don't know that I'd recommend one. The resistance as I understand it with wind trainers is not variable, and they are loud.

Next is the mag trainer.  These have come a long way.  Older used ones might have a wired remote to change resistance.  Really new school ones include 'Smart' technology to link up to Zwift or other training programs via bluetooth to vary resistance automatically according to whatever course you are riding.  I really want one of those   Although I think there are smart fluid trainers as well.

Last is the fluid trainer.  Just a few years ago before the smart trainers started to take hold, these were the best.  CycleOps Fluid 2 and Kurt Kinetic are tops - you might well be able to get a deal on one of these.  It's basically a fluid-filled drum that the faster it spins, the more viscous the fluid gets and therefore the higher the resistance.  Nothing to do other than mount the bike to it and spin.

Let us know when you find one that looks interesting and we'll have a look.

2018-01-04 1:08 PM
in reply to: EHouse20

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Originally posted by EHouse20

Ok, question for the group. I'm in the market for a bike trainer so that I can ride inside for now. I would like to get something used and hopefully rather inexpensive. I've been looking on Facebook marketplace and Craigslist with not a lot of luck so far. Any other ideas? Also, I guess my biggest question has to do with the quick release. Does it just hook right to your bike or do you have to take your quick release rod out in favor of another one? That's the only thing that has me confused. Anyway, sorry for the complete rookie question but I'm hoping to get riding very soon. Thanks in advance for any help.

Eric


Another place to look for a used trainer is REI warehouse and their annual garage sale (which is coming up soon--maybe this weekend). You have to be a member ($20 for life), but it is well worth it if you have one somewhat close and/or order online. There are a lot of benefits, including helping them spend some of their profits each year!

I have a Cycleops 2 and I'd love to have a smart trainer. Alas, I think I bought mine (actually a gift from my wife) just shortly before the smart trainers got to the range of affordable. We have a love/hate relationship, wherein I love to hate the stupid thing (but do see its benefits!).


2018-01-04 1:10 PM
in reply to: drfoodlove

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Swim at lunch today. Short 1050 yards of mostly pull and/or drills. The vents above the pool are frozen shut, so the pool area is VERY warm and the air quality isn't fantastic. Everyone was cutting workouts short today. An hour later and my eyes are still stinging from the chlorine in the air.
2018-01-04 2:12 PM
in reply to: [email protected]

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Baltimore, Maryland
Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Hey everyone!

I was still posting in last year's too, oops! So excited for another year with BDAS!


NAME: Nicole

STORY: I grew up playing all kinds of sports (swimming, soccer, softball, basketball, volleyball, XC and Track). Came from a pretty awesome swimming program but it was a lot of commitment for a young kid, so I quit in 6th grade. Started running track (middle distance - 400, 800, mile) in 11th grade and ended up running Track and XC in college. I always said I would do tris someday and even got a nice Trek bike in 2008 for my birthday. Fast forward to 2013 and I finally stopped making excuses of why I didn't have time to train, got my butt in gear and started training. First tri was down in ATL when I was visiting a former college teammate, and the race was AWESOME! I was smiling the whole time (even when I thought I was almost done on the bike only to ride by mile marker 9 out of 16...). The bike is by far my least favorite part, but I still enjoy it (most of the time)!

FAMILY STATUS: Single mom to the best furbaby ever, my tuxedo cat Raven :-) (yes I am from Baltimore. No she is not named after the football team)

CURRENT TRAINING: In the winter I do a lot of strength and conditioning stuff, as I hate being outside in the cold and have yet to buy a trainer/I've already mentioned I hate the bike, right? I also swim on a masters team and compete in meets here and there. Just got back into it last year and it's been a lot of fun. The team is super friendly and welcoming. Hopefully the team will include Mike soon!

2017 RACES: I competed in an Oly and a sprint that were 1 week apart. I trained harder for these than I have for any tris in the past. It was my first Oly...I hated the bike (duh), but that was partly because I swam a little extra by accident. Loved the run though. The sprint was a small local one that I've done 3 times now, and actually won this year's, which was super exciting!

RACES PLANNED FOR 18: I signed up for that local sprint again, and hope to do at least 1 or 2 more sprints, and an Oly or 2.

BEER PREFERENCE: I am more of a wine person (I appreciate you all still accepting me), but for beer I prefer lighter, non-hoppy beers. I'm poor so drink a lot of light beer (Natty Boh!), but when I get fancy I enjoy lagers, like the local Raven Lager. I also have recently discovered I like stouts (especially yummy chocolate PB ones).

WEIGHT LOSS: My heaviest ever was probably around 163, which I was nearing over the holidays. Then I got strep throat and am down to 155. Hoping to continue dropping them but am focusing more on eating healthy and working out than my weight (or at least trying to).

WHAT WILL MAKE ME A GOOD MENTEE: I am not a super savvy equipment person and can almost never answer questions about that, but I try to be consistent with checking in and reading other's checkins (although I find it harder when the group is at its most active). What I like to think I excel at is finding the silver lining to bad situations and encouraging positive thinking, and also giving advice on nutrition! I am studying to be an RD (very early stages), so try to help when people have questions about eating. I do intend on sharing the principles of intuitive eating on here for anyone who is interested! I said I was going to in December but the holidays are always nuts, so will start doing that next week!
2018-01-04 2:15 PM
in reply to: nicole14e

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1958
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Baltimore, Maryland
Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Sorry for the book I wrote above!

Welcome to all the newbies and returners! Can't wait to learn more about everyone!

Went to boot camp last night (my first time working out since getting strep) and felt surprisingly good. My glutes are SUPER sore now. Trudged to work through the snow/freezing cold today, so I'm counting that as my workout (30 minutes walking pretty quickly).

Otherwise trying to get my life de-cluttered. I went through my room last night and got rid of a ton of crap I had in there. Looking forward to tackling the basement next.
2018-01-04 2:38 PM
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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

Originally posted by EHouse20 Ok, question for the group. I'm in the market for a bike trainer so that I can ride inside for now. I would like to get something used and hopefully rather inexpensive. I've been looking on Facebook marketplace and Craigslist with not a lot of luck so far. Any other ideas? Also, I guess my biggest question has to do with the quick release. Does it just hook right to your bike or do you have to take your quick release rod out in favor of another one? That's the only thing that has me confused. Anyway, sorry for the complete rookie question but I'm hoping to get riding very soon. Thanks in advance for any help. Eric

To add to John and Gretchen's responses...

I have a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine Trainer that I purchased in 2011 for $280 at Performance Bike.  It's basically the same as the Cycleops one John mentioned, just a different brand.  It's a "dumb" trainer, meaning it doesn't directly interface with any cycling software, and doesn't automatically control resistance.  You can add a speed sensor for like $30 and then you would have access to "virtual power" or "Zwift Power", or whatever software brand name.  This virtual power is derived from a known speed-to-power curve on the trainer (e.g. if you're spinning the wheel @ 15 mph you are generating 180 watts.  It's not really accurate (my power numbers are 10% lower with my real power meter vs. virtual power), but it is definitely consistent and that's all you need to train.  If you're not interested in power, then go by HR or RPE or whatever.  I have over 8,000 miles on the KK with zero issues so far.

You can really go nuts, cost-wise, with trainers and trainer software.  I use Trainer Road which is $99/year, plus there's Zwfit, The Sufferfest, and a bunch of others.  Some trainers alone are upwards of $1500.

My recommendation would be to grab a KK or Cycleops fluid as cheap as you can find it, slap on a $30 speed sensor, and then you have a base platform you could add the different apps to later if you wanted.

I just love spending other people's money. 



Edited by jmhpsu93 2018-01-04 2:39 PM
2018-01-04 2:43 PM
in reply to: drfoodlove

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

Originally posted by drfoodlove Swim at lunch today. Short 1050 yards of mostly pull and/or drills. The vents above the pool are frozen shut, so the pool area is VERY warm and the air quality isn't fantastic. Everyone was cutting workouts short today. An hour later and my eyes are still stinging from the chlorine in the air.

This weather makes a mess of pools.  Our old pool was an indoor/outdoor one with a tarp cover in the winter, which was a nightmare to control temperature.  Oh, and when it got really cold the condensation would freeze on the roof and drop ice chunks into the water. 

Good job getting back in the water.  I'll bet your chlorine tolerance is down after that layoff.  I also find that I get a lot of water in my ears when I get back into the pool after a long layoff, no idea why.



2018-01-04 2:45 PM
in reply to: firebert

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

Originally posted by firebert

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Got in 90' on the trainer today, mostly tempo (70-80% FTP) work.  Last interval was almost 25' long.  BORRRRRIIIINNNNNGGG.  I'm beginning to watch the 2017 TdF on my DVR.  Don't tell me who won. 

I'll bet you can guess....hahahahaha.

Meanwhile I'm holding my breath waiting for the Tour Down Under to start.  That one actually gets NBCSN coverage!

We need your yearly post of cycling events.  I'll make sure to record the TdU. 

2018-01-05 9:24 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Off day for me here. Woke up with a sore ankle and decided to not push it.

Finally getting the tattoo I promised myself after I got tenure (almost four years ago now!) this afternoon. It will put paid to swimming for a couple of weeks while it heals, but I'm looking forward to other activities while it heals.
2018-01-05 4:36 PM
in reply to: drfoodlove

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open

3K in the pool today, felt really good but my times were just a tad slow.  Longest swim since like October of 2016.  I was going to go to Masters this morning (sorry, Nicole!) but schools were closed for the 2nd day after 1" (!!!) of snow so I had to totally rearrange my day.

2018-01-06 9:53 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: 2018 Beer Drinker Appreciation Society - Always Open
Short easy bike ride today when I became a member of the club. Yes, I crashed. Nothing serious (a scratch on my letf knee and a hole in my nice winter bike pants. Not happy).Maybe riding a road bike with thin summer tyres in the winter was not my brightests idea.
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