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2018-10-11 7:38 AM


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Subject: Where to start when immediately repeating Jorge's winter cycling programme
Hi again

Just finished the above mentioned programme and am contemplating immediately redoing it - a.) because I enjoyed it so much and b.) because my first cycle was plagued with annoying setbacks, flu, food poisoning, wisdom tooth extraction to name a few.

The first phase focuses on improving VO2 max before moving onto working on 20 mean max power and finally a focus on improving critical power - just wondering if repeating the VO2 max stage is necessary or can simply jump in at the start of the 20 mean max power phase?

Thanks for any insight


2018-10-11 7:11 PM
in reply to: Alpal

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Subject: RE: Where to start when immediately repeating Jorge's winter cycling programme

Way back when I always repeated in full, had a great jump in CP doing it back-to-back leading into Tri Sprint season at the time.  I enjoyed the VO2 phase the most.  I dreaded the 6x4' workouts!

I guess it depends on your long term focus and your strengths.  I hope Mark doesn't mind me posting the following.  It's some info when he had a mentor power group with coach Shane a several years back, I liked the different approach.  Take a look at the group's archives, some great info and workouts arethere.  I still have all my notes and the workouts archived for importing into TrainerRoad, MaximumTrainer, etc.:

------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Phil Skiba describes threshold and VO2max using a house analogy where threshold is your ceiling and VO2max is your roof. If you want to increase your power at threshold, then you need to have sufficient attic space in order to raise your roof and if your threshold and VO2max are close together, you will first need to raise the roof (increase power at VO2max) before you can push up the ceiling.
Depending on the athlete, the difference between power at VO2max and power at threshold will vary and depending on the difference between these values, we can focus your training a bit to address your limiter. In order to determine how to move forward for each athlete, we are going to look at how your short and long tests compare and then decide from there how to proceed. While the ratio between the two will not provide a hard and fast answer, it will provide some guidance and then, combined with your training over the coming weeks, we can decide whether you should stay the course or make further adjustments.
In order to determine the way ahead, you are going to divide your short test power by your long test power and then use the result in order to determine which workouts would likely be best for you this week. You will notice a bit of overlap with the numbers and if fall within the overlap, then you can decide which set of workouts you think would be best for you (and of course we can help steer your decision).

Short test to Long test ratio result is <1.1 (group 1, aka the TTer’s, work the short term power)
Workout 1 – VO2max 1
Workout 2 – Threshold 1
Workout 3 – VO2max 2

Short test to Long test ratio result is 1.09-1.16 (group 2, aka the All Rounder’s, work a bit of everything)
Workout 1 – Threshold 1
Workout 2 – VO2max 1
Workout 3 – Threshold 2 or Sweet Spot

Short test to Long test ratio result is >1.15 (group 3, aka the Sprinter’s, work the long term power)
Workout 1 – Threshold 1
Workout 2 – Threshold 2
Workout 3 – Sweet Spot

2018-10-12 4:12 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: Where to start when immediately repeating Jorge's winter cycling programme
Originally posted by Donto
I hope Mark doesn't mind me posting the following.  It's some info when he had a mentor power group with coach Shane a several years back,


Of course not. I think there is some great info in there. I am considering doing another group this winter. If people are interested let me know.

The approached we used was to identify your strength and weakness and target them.

Another coach I worked with liked the concept of working your power duration curve from left to right. In other words, working your 30s power, then your 1min, then you 5min.....all the way to your long aerobic and tempo rides.
The shorter stuff works well for people stuck on trainers
Keep in mind that if you work something for too short, you won't get the adaptations. Too long, and you are getting less adaptation.
You can argue if the "too long" is 4 weeks or 12 weeks.....

Jorge's plan was cramming the whole cycling into 15 weeks putting more of an emphasis on sweet spot stuff in the 2nd half.
My concern about doing Jorge's plan and then just jumping back in the 2nd half of the plan will be too much time on the same thing. Maybe that's what some people need but I find it makes for a long winter.




2018-10-12 9:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Where to start when immediately repeating Jorge's winter cycling programme
I have done the plan from Mark's power group (I think in the final year before I got a coach) and can testify it was really useful for me. It worked better for me than Jorge's program. Not sure about others, but something about the power targets didn't fit with the latter. I think I am one of those people who is good at holding a high % of max for a long time, but my absolute max power is not that high. I could almost never hit the high targets for short intervals (5 minutes or less) in Jorge's workouts, even early on in the plan, but found the longer sets later on didn't really challenge me. The mentor group program had more differentiation for people like me (or for those who are better at speed than endurance) and was definitely a challenge, but I was able to actually hit the power targets and rest intervals for the workouts. That was what finally got me down to 3 hours flat for HIM. (I started at 3:27; down to 2:39 now.)

Edited by Hot Runner 2018-10-12 9:04 AM
2018-10-13 9:47 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Where to start when immediately repeating Jorge's winter cycling programme
Originally posted by Hot Runner

I have done the plan from Mark's power group (I think in the final year before I got a coach) and can testify it was really useful for me. It worked better for me than Jorge's program. Not sure about others, but something about the power targets didn't fit with the latter. I think I am one of those people who is good at holding a high % of max for a long time, but my absolute max power is not that high. I could almost never hit the high targets for short intervals (5 minutes or less) in Jorge's workouts, even early on in the plan, but found the longer sets later on didn't really challenge me. The mentor group program had more differentiation for people like me (or for those who are better at speed than endurance) and was definitely a challenge, but I was able to actually hit the power targets and rest intervals for the workouts. That was what finally got me down to 3 hours flat for HIM. (I started at 3:27; down to 2:39 now.)


IIRC the "threshold" stuff was on the light side of threshold. Probably ok for people who's threshold was actually lower than what the tests showed. But for a person with his threshold accurately set probably on the easy side. I suspect this was your case

Now you have to work on the aero :-)

2018-10-14 9:01 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Where to start when immediately repeating Jorge's winter cycling programme

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Hot Runner I have done the plan from Mark's power group (I think in the final year before I got a coach) and can testify it was really useful for me. It worked better for me than Jorge's program. Not sure about others, but something about the power targets didn't fit with the latter. I think I am one of those people who is good at holding a high % of max for a long time, but my absolute max power is not that high. I could almost never hit the high targets for short intervals (5 minutes or less) in Jorge's workouts, even early on in the plan, but found the longer sets later on didn't really challenge me. The mentor group program had more differentiation for people like me (or for those who are better at speed than endurance) and was definitely a challenge, but I was able to actually hit the power targets and rest intervals for the workouts. That was what finally got me down to 3 hours flat for HIM. (I started at 3:27; down to 2:39 now.)
IIRC the "threshold" stuff was on the light side of threshold. Probably ok for people who's threshold was actually lower than what the tests showed. But for a person with his threshold accurately set probably on the easy side. I suspect this was your case Now you have to work on the aero :-)

 

I have seen similar improvements on the bike. My last raced I had a 2:32 bike split but it took me almost three years before I was finally able to go under 3 hours.  Jorge's Winter Bike Plan was the first bike plan that I did. I did it out doors after my 2nd race season from June-September  when I had day light on my pre-work rides (I just raced on May that spring).  I had a coach this year and did a large portion on my bike training with the TrainerRoads.  I did my last race about a month ago and am working on goals and training plans for next year.  I also struggle with the short high intensity intervals but feel that the long intervals are too easy.  I will have to look at Mark's archived mentor group.  



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