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2019-01-13 11:27 AM


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Subject: Swimming
Good afternoon everyone. I am going to ask a question knowing that there are many variances to deal with, etc, come race day vs pool swimming. On average Im curious to know if anyone averages around 1:50/100 in the pool and what their rough average is when it comes to a sprint and even a 70.3 distance swim. Im trying to put some estimate times together for some races this upcoming summer and the hardest part I have guessing on is the swim. Ive done fairly well with my targets for bike and run but too inexperienced with the swim as I’ve only done 2 sprint races and that was summer of 2017.. no races last year with a newborn and a 2 year old! Anybody’s thoughts/own experiences, I’d love to hear. Thank you


2019-01-13 11:35 AM
in reply to: Brandon443

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Subject: RE: Swimming

You'll be firmly in the middle of the pack in any local race......maybe even front of middle.  People who do triathlon can't swim.

2019-01-13 12:12 PM
in reply to: Brandon443

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Subject: RE: Swimming
Previous poster is probably correct but it depends to some extent a a couple of things--yards or meters? Is that a pace you can keep up for an entire workout with fairly minimal rest (as in 20-30X 100 with 10-15 seconds rest in between), pace for a race-distance continuous swim, or what? That would probably give more detail as to what part of the middle of the pack you'd be in. Also depends to some extent on your open water swim skills (dealing with crowded starts, sighting, drafting) and comfort level with different conditions. Some people tend to underperform in open water relative to their pool speed; others do better than expected.

I average about 1:45-1:50/100m (1:35-1:40/100 yards) over the course of a long workout (including some kick, pull, and stroke sets) with distance sets (a bit faster if the repeats are mostly 100 or less). Most of my HIM swims have been in the 33-36 minute range, depending on conditions. I think my best split was 32:30. Ocean and lake swims, most without wetsuit, a few with. I did my first full IM swim in 1:10 (calm ocean, no wetsuit). Sprint would usually be in the 12-13 minute range. A lot of swim courses aren't super-accurate, and conditions really vary, so there's a big range.

That usually gets me in the top 1/6 of the overall field (men and women) in most of my races. Closer to top 1/10 sometimes for longer distances and/or rough conditions. Pretty much anything under 2 minutes/100 meters will get you solidly into the middle of the pack in most races. True--that is really pretty slow by masters' swim standards. On the average, most triathletes, except for the pros, and some ex-collegiate swimmers (mainly in the younger age groups) are pretty weak swimmers.
2019-01-13 1:28 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner


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Subject: RE: Swimming
Left Brain- I feel like one of those people who can’t swim!

Hot Runner- I’d say most of my pool swims average 1:47-1:49/100 m. Few seconds on the quicker end when it’s more 50’s and 100’s then once I start throwing in 200’s+ it starts slowing. Only have done a handful of open water swims so sighting etc is not good and I know it definitely hurts my time. My first two sprints I averaged 2:15/100.. goal is to get 2:00 this year for the sprint in June. Really unsure of what to expect for the 70.3 in early July (I think once I get through with the Fordt sprint I’ll onviously know much better of where my swim is at). Most of the workouts I’ve been doing are 20 sec rest or less between reps, but only getting about 1200 meters per workout right now. Do plan to up it to about 1500 here in the next couple weeks.
2019-01-13 1:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming

You're fine......it's triathlon, not swimming. Like I said, virtually nobody in a local triathlon can swim.    Get a few weeks of lessons and you may end up with another 5 seconds/100 of free speed just cleaning up what you don't even know you are missing.  The rest of it is just pool time......1500 per workout is light, so if you can find some time, keep increasing.  When your stroke goes to hell because you are tired, do some kick sets, or balance drills.  Good swimming is a lot more technique, for someone training for triathlon, than it is fitness after a point.



Edited by Left Brain 2019-01-13 1:37 PM
2019-01-13 9:59 PM
in reply to: Brandon443

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Subject: RE: Swimming
If the goal is a 70.3, then ideally by the last month or so before the race your workouts should be in the 3000m range. I would build up gradually. If you can get some feedback and instruction about your stroke, that might help increase your efficiency and make it easier to build endurance. I'm somewhat of a different animal--lifelong swimmer (though I still have form issues I work on) and fairly good at tri distances, just not fast. I don't slow down a lot between sprint and HIM or even full IM pace. 1:45-1:50 feels quite easy to me, even for a really long swim over IM distance; below 1:35 feels hard, even for a few hundred meters. Not as much difference on the bike as most people either. May just be the way my body works.

If you can find a local tri or swim club, many have group sessions in season where you can get instruction and practice in skills like starts, drafting, and sighting. I found those really helpful in making the transition from pool to open water, and still try to attend some each summer if possible to review and practice. I had a good comfort level with swimming in different conditions from lake swims as a kid and ocean swimming in Hawaii, but had never learned sighting, bilateral breathing, or how to swim in a crowd before starting tri. In my first few events, I sometimes lost a LOT of time going off course; now I'm quite good at navigating. It just takes practice, and learning some basic techniques.


2019-01-14 10:15 AM
in reply to: Brandon443

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Subject: RE: Swimming
Lots of variables.

Wetsuit legal?
How good are you at sighting?
What will you wear if no wetsuit?
Depends on wind and volatility of the water surface.
As the distance increases, there will probably be some fall off in speed.
Will the courses have lots of turns?
Wave start?
Rolling start?

Typically I'm at my pool pace with a wetsuit in open water.
5 seconds or so slower non-wetsuit.
2019-01-14 12:39 PM
in reply to: TriJayhawkRyan


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Subject: RE: Swimming
Yes I know lots of variables.. was just looking for what people have found on average for themselves from pool vs open water, knowing that everyone is going to be different depending on background, etc.

Yes wetsuit legal
Sighting is tough (I hope to get a decent amount of open water swims in early this year to help
Course shape I do believe is more of a triangle shape, so not many turns
Unsure of the start for this race at this time, I don’t know anyone who was participated in it before

I think I was more interested in people’s respknses like you say your about pool speed with a wetsuit in open water. That’s the kind of info I was curious about when starting this thread.

Thanks for everyone’s input!
2019-01-14 2:33 PM
in reply to: Brandon443

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Subject: RE: Swimming

There's going to be some drop off from your pool times.  Better sighting and course navigation, drafting well and wetsuits help to narrow the gap.  In the pool you get a lot of speed coming off the walls plus you're getting (sounds like) 20 seconds rest between reps.  Try swimming (4x150 or 3x200) on 5 seconds rest and sight at least once per length...that will give you a closer representation of your race pace.

2019-01-14 8:32 PM
in reply to: Brandon443

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Subject: RE: Swimming
Time gains from a wetsuit depend to some extent on what level of swimmer you are. Generally less experienced/slower swimmers will see bigger gains, as the buoyancy from the wetsuit will often correct some flaws with body position when swimming without it. My guess would be in the 5-10 second/100m range for such swimmers. I've occasionally used my sleeveless shortie wetsuit in a cold pool, and see gains that average maybe 2-3 seconds/100m compared to just a swimsuit. But wetsuit gains might be cancelled out by navigation, pacing, and other issues in open water for many swimmers.

My fastest HIM split was indeed a wetsuit swim and a bit faster than I would normally swim the distance in a pool. But there a few other factors--1. Said wetsuit developed a leak just before the start, and the water was freezing cold, maybe 60. I was swimming all-out, not my usual "steady to strong" effort, as I was terrified the hole would get bigger, the suit would fill with water, and I would have to haul out on a dock (course allowed this), remove the suit, and finish without it or freeze to death trying. 2. It was a tiny race in a little calm lake. They divided 66 people into two self-seeded waves. So there was no "washing machine" at the start, and I did not have to fight my way past hundreds of slower or larger swimmers just because I am a woman over 40 and my wave often starts last.

All my other HIM swim splits have been either pretty similar to pool times for the same effort level (for calm conditions), or a somewhat slower (for rough ones), regardless of whether or not I wore a wetsuit. And I have raced in pretty much everything (big and small lakes, rivers, oceans, with and without wetsuits). There are just so many other variables for open water swim times.



2019-01-15 6:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming

Not to mention that the distance in an open water race can be all over the place......you might be swimming 100+ M less/more depending on the bouy placement.  And then there is always the race when the bouy(s) blow off their mooring and you have to chase it.  LOL

Use pool times to gauge where you are in swimming.  It's just swimming, it's not special "triathlon swimming".

You should, of course, practice some open water swimming before and open water event....but if you want to know where you stack up,  use your pool times.



Edited by Left Brain 2019-01-15 6:35 AM


2019-01-19 6:07 AM
in reply to: Brandon443

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Subject: RE: Swimming
Originally posted by Brandon443

Good afternoon everyone. I am going to ask a question knowing that there are many variances to deal with, etc, come race day vs pool swimming. On average Im curious to know if anyone averages around 1:50/100 in the pool and what their rough average is when it comes to a sprint and even a 70.3 distance swim. Im trying to put some estimate times together for some races this upcoming summer and the hardest part I have guessing on is the swim. Ive done fairly well with my targets for bike and run but too inexperienced with the swim as I’ve only done 2 sprint races and that was summer of 2017.. no races last year with a newborn and a 2 year old! Anybody’s thoughts/own experiences, I’d love to hear. Thank you


I average around 2:00 - 2:05 / 100 m in the pool. I am nearly the slowest in the slow lane in the local triathlon club swim squad. In the weekly OW training, I was in the middle of the slow group (the fast group was really fast - around 1:30 / 100 m, and everyone else was in the slow group), but in recent weeks the OW group has become much faster - I can barely catch up the slowest group only with drafting. I don't know if it is because the "cold" (by subtropical standard - 19°C water) scares beginners away, or if it is because everyone else swim with wetsuit but I don't.
2019-01-19 9:16 AM
in reply to: Brandon443

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Subject: RE: Swimming
I am really close to your time (I swim in a 25 yard pool; I swim a bit faster per 100, but it is also shorter by about 10%) It takes me about a half hour to swim a mile or 1:40/ 100 yards. A typical sprint around here is a 400m swim, which I typically do in about 8 minutes. That time usually puts me in the top 1/3 overall and at least the top half of the 45-49 M group. I generally go out pretty slow for the first 100 or so while the group spreads out a bit, and then start passing people (that likely went out too fast) one at a time instead of trying to pass the whole group at once.

Don't feel bad for the people I pass in the swim though. Most of them will pass me on the bike, and those that don't will almost certainly pass me on the run.

J White
2019-01-19 1:26 PM
in reply to: #5253880

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Subject: RE: Swimming
I tried 1500 m in a short course metre pool yesterday and got 29'48", and it is pretty damn slow when compared to the level of the triathlon club that I'm in.

This kind of speed is only about 40% to the median overall in my local aquathon races, and near the bottom in my age group (M 25-29), and my running is not good either, about the same position as well (I run just under 50 minutes for 10 km). And in OW swimming races, maybe this speed only get me at 80 - 90% of the field so I'm really disappointed.
2019-01-19 3:46 PM
in reply to: miklcct

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Subject: RE: Swimming
I think it really depends on where the race is and the size of the event. In the smaller local events I've done in the US, 2:00/100m in calm conditions is pretty much middle of the pack. I spent many years competing in SE Asia; the standard of swimming in general is even a bit weaker. Events that attract a lot of beginners will tend to have slower swim times. Ditto for places where swimming is not popular and/or people's chances to safely practice open water swimming (or even practice it at all) are very limited.

Have also raced and looked at plenty of race results from elsewhere--it's been my impression that Australia in particular has a relatively high standard of swimming; European races faster average times in general. This may be a function of comfort level with open water swimming (it seems like almost every Australian I know enjoys surfing and swimming in the ocean, whether or not they're a triathlete) and how much the sport attracts beginners versus more experienced athletes.
2019-01-20 2:50 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Swimming
Originally posted by Hot Runner

I think it really depends on where the race is and the size of the event. In the smaller local events I've done in the US, 2:00/100m in calm conditions is pretty much middle of the pack. I spent many years competing in SE Asia; the standard of swimming in general is even a bit weaker. Events that attract a lot of beginners will tend to have slower swim times. Ditto for places where swimming is not popular and/or people's chances to safely practice open water swimming (or even practice it at all) are very limited.

Have also raced and looked at plenty of race results from elsewhere--it's been my impression that Australia in particular has a relatively high standard of swimming; European races faster aver age times in general. This may be a function of comfort level with open water swimming (it seems like almost every Australian I know enjoys surfing and swimming in the ocean, whether or not they're a triathlete) and how much the sport attracts beginners versus more experienced athletes.


Is there really a difference between the norm between westerners and Asians? My speed is around 2:00 - 2:05 / 100 m, and I'm nearly the slowest in the triathlon club that I am in (which mainly consists of westerners), and also can barely catch up the OW group (which mainly consists of westerners too, with some people from my triathlon club) that I practice with (most of them are under 1:40 / 100 m, with the slowest around 2:00 / 100 m), but my local friends think I am fast.

Last July, before I started proper swim training, I participated in an aquathon race which consisted of 500 m swim - 2 km run - 500 m swim - 2 km run, and I got 11:52 and 11:02 in the swim legs respectively, which got me 57% and 35% in the field respectively. The temperature was 30°C and and 27°C sea. Most of the participants were locals.

In November, I participated in a 3.7 km OWS race and completed in about 86 minutes, and got me 79% in the field. Most of the participants in that race were westerners.

So I start to suspect if there is really a level difference between westerners and Asians (in terms of ethnicity).


2019-01-20 9:32 AM
in reply to: miklcct

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Subject: RE: Swimming
Not saying it's anything related to ethnicity/race at all--just popularity of swimming and opportunity to practice! The Chinese in particular hold many world records for swimming. I don't think the top end is any slower--in Singapore there was a junior women's team with some outstanding swimmers who could blow the rest of us out of the water, even though in many cases they were very petite. The distances swum in tri place a premium on technique and conditioning, not size. But in many countries, there's a lack of safe open water, pools, and (in the poorer countries) opportunities for instruction.
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