General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Positive Run Split Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2019-01-28 9:14 AM

User image


1508
1000500
Cypress, Texas
Subject: Positive Run Split

On Saturday I did some some running tempo work.  I did a long warm up then 3 x 1 mile repeats with 1 mile recovery in between then a cool down.  

The first tempo mile I went out really easy.  If I don't feel like I am going impossibly slow on the first interval when I am fresh I always hit it way too fast then can't hold the later interval under the target pace due to fatigue.   

I hit the second tempo mile with a little brisker attack than the first one. 

The first two tempo miles were both 6 minutes and 4 seconds which is about 5-10 sec/mile slower than my 5K race pace.  For the last tempo mile I decided to push it a littler bit harder to try to go under 6 minutes.  The first half mile I didn't want to over do it so I held a little bit back for the second half.  The last half mile I really opened thing up and felt like I was going much faster than the first two intervals. 

So.... when I got my split at 6:24 I wondered why I was so much slower than the first two miles when I felt I was going so much faster.  Does anyone else experience this to where your first interval you feel like you are slow as tar and your split is 30 sec/mile faster than your target pace and your last interval you feel like you are flying and your split is 30 sec/mile slower than your target pace?  



2019-01-28 10:31 AM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

User image


130
10025
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split
Not me. I always feel like I'm slow no matter what my actual speed/pace are. It's really hard for me to judge interval speed stuff still.
2019-01-28 2:34 PM
in reply to: 0

User image


1508
1000500
Cypress, Texas
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split

I think that feeling slow may be a good thing and I am actually wondering if I would have been closer to the first two splits if I hadn't push the last interval.  I know that muscling your way through can create undesirable tension that requires work without moving you forward. 

I am going to have to do more tests with the 3x1600 meters and see where the paces fall. 

Jnuger, its okay your 1:25min/yard swim pace are going to get you out of the water far enough ahead of my 2:00min/yard swim pace that you can go 30+ sec a mile slower than me an the run and I still won't catch you.



Edited by BlueBoy26 2019-01-28 2:35 PM
2019-01-28 3:25 PM
in reply to: #5254650

User image

Member
622
500100
Franklin, TN
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split
I saw the same thing happen today at masters practice when we were swimming intervals. The first one felt relatively easy at 1:30 pace. As the set progressed that relatively easy pace became harder...form breaks down with fatigue. One way to fix that (for a given target speed) is more volume.
2019-01-28 7:56 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

User image

Master
8247
50002000100010010025
Eugene, Oregon
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split
Yep, probably due to fatigue--possibly not only within the workout itself but accumulated training stress. Once during full-on IM training I was at the end of a long run (maybe 2:50?) and was supposed to be doing some kind of pickups. I felt like I was running so hard my legs were about to fall out from under me and I would fall in the river.....and could not get the pace on my Garmin under about 8:10 (about typical HIM race pace) to save my life. Cumulative fatigue in particular can be weird--when I've done a lot of bike and run miles that week and especially a hard day or two on the bike before a long run, my sense of pace will always be off. Sometimes I'm going considerably faster than I think I am, especially if I think I'm going "easy" and right after biking, while the "hard" part will be quite a bit slower than I think/feel, especially if it is toward the end of a long run.

Even my first IM--I still can't fathom how it ended up as 10:30 pace. After the first 10 1/2 mile loop (when it was super-hot and I felt a bit woozy), I felt really good, not exhausted, and thought I was running well. I was walking for what I thought was about 30 seconds at each aid station to eat pretzels, but otherwise I kept running at what felt like a good clip--definitely under 10 minutes/mile. Either I wasn't running nearly as fast as I thought, or I was miscalculating 30 seconds, or there were too many aid stations and too many pretzels! (I don't remember splits; I did see the tracker and know it was negative splits, but don't have that data now.) Maybe the hot conditions early on just dragged everyone down, including me --I was second for my AG on the run, and only 5 minutes back of the first place woman's run (I ended up 3rd AG). I guess there is a lot I don't understand about that distance!
2019-01-28 8:31 PM
in reply to: Hot Runner

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split

You were too fast on your first two, or too fast on your "rest" miles or, as hotrunner said, suffering from cumulative fatigue.  In any case, you did yourself no good with your third interval.  Once you can't make your pace on intervals, walk off and come back another day. (since it was your last, you didn't lose anything, but you didn't gain for the workout)  It's a tempo workout.....it shouldn't break you down.



2019-01-29 9:57 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image


1508
1000500
Cypress, Texas
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split

Originally posted by Left Brain

You were too fast on your first two, or too fast on your "rest" miles or, as hotrunner said, suffering from cumulative fatigue.  In any case, you did yourself no good with your third interval.  Once you can't make your pace on intervals, walk off and come back another day. (since it was your last, you didn't lose anything, but you didn't gain for the workout)  It's a tempo workout.....it shouldn't break you down.

 

Got...it.  I was going to test the pace on subsequent 3x1600 runs to see if I was going to fast.  This is a definite possibility.  Repeats are are always easier to hold constant on Monday after a day off than they are on Saturday afternoon of a full training week.   Cumulative fatigue is also a definite possibility as is going too fast on the recover miles in between.  I didn't feel broken down.   I will see how these go over the following weeks.

2019-01-29 11:32 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split

Mile repeats are notoriously hard to get right.  One thing you can try as you work to find your "sweet spot", is to walk between the intervals instead of running.  That forces you to get that "pace" right, so it's one less variable that needs to be worked out......you can play with that later.  If you need the miles for your work, then tack on the easy miles as a cool down after your interval work is finished.

2019-01-30 2:30 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image


1508
1000500
Cypress, Texas
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split

Originally posted by Left Brain

Mile repeats are notoriously hard to get right.  One thing you can try as you work to find your "sweet spot", is to walk between the intervals instead of running.  That forces you to get that "pace" right, so it's one less variable that needs to be worked out......you can play with that later.  If you need the miles for your work, then tack on the easy miles as a cool down after your interval work is finished.

 

Thanks! 

Yes...I was trying to get extra miles in by running a longer recovery rather than walking a shorter one.  :-) I didn't realize how many variable I had thrown into this.  The only one that I though would mater was my percieved effort.  

2019-02-01 6:45 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

User image

Master
2759
20005001001002525
Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split
I'm in a similar boat and currently running Yasso 800s to build my speed for an upcoming marathon. However, I made myself play each interval workout patiently by walking between intervals and I was able to finish the last few intervals slightly faster than the first few. Walking works! Plus it feels like a tiny reset mentally and physically so you can hit the next interval at the desired pace
2019-02-01 7:14 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split

Originally posted by BlueBoy26

Originally posted by Left Brain

Mile repeats are notoriously hard to get right.  One thing you can try as you work to find your "sweet spot", is to walk between the intervals instead of running.  That forces you to get that "pace" right, so it's one less variable that needs to be worked out......you can play with that later.  If you need the miles for your work, then tack on the easy miles as a cool down after your interval work is finished.

 

Thanks! 

Yes...I was trying to get extra miles in by running a longer recovery rather than walking a shorter one.  :-) I didn't realize how many variable I had thrown into this.  The only one that I though would mater was my percieved effort.  

"perceived effort" is more in line with fartleks.

Both intervals and fartleks can be "hard" efforts in your week, but they are completely different animals.  You can alternate them each week to give your body a "rest" and still get that good work in.  (your "perceived effort" in a fartlek will allow for not going as fast as you feel like you are, as you experienced in your mile intervals.....intervals cannot allow that.....you MUST hit your times to get the gains you are looking for)

Does that make sense to you?



Edited by Left Brain 2019-02-01 7:22 PM


2019-02-02 2:05 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

User image

Extreme Veteran
695
500100252525
Olathe
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split
Assume this is not on a treadmill?

As a PSA, don't trust the mileage or pace on those things....
2019-02-04 3:05 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image


1508
1000500
Cypress, Texas
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split

Originally posted by Left Brain

"perceived effort" is more in line with fartleks.

Both intervals and fartleks can be "hard" efforts in your week, but they are completely different animals.  You can alternate them each week to give your body a "rest" and still get that good work in.  (your "perceived effort" in a fartlek will allow for not going as fast as you feel like you are, as you experienced in your mile intervals.....intervals cannot allow that.....you MUST hit your times to get the gains you are looking for)

Does that make sense to you?

Got it.  :-

2019-02-04 4:08 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Champion
10018
50005000
, Minnesota
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split

Two thoughts:

1.  Isn't 5-10 secs slower than 5k pace too fast for a tempo pace?  I thought tempo was more like 10k pace.  (or maybe that's the same thing for you).  That might be part of the problem.

2.  How sure are you about accurate course measurement and also what about wind and elevation changes? 

Edited to add: I am not 100% convinced walking your rest is more accurate than a jog.  Both require discipline.  Certainly try it, but adding another factor isn't necessarily the answer.  



Edited by BikerGrrrl 2019-02-04 4:11 PM
2019-02-05 12:38 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

User image

Extreme Veteran
5722
5000500100100
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split
Originally posted by BlueBoy26

On Saturday I did some some running tempo work.  I did a long warm up then 3 x 1 mile repeats with 1 mile recovery in between then a cool down.  

The first tempo mile I went out really easy.  If I don't feel like I am going impossibly slow on the first interval when I am fresh I always hit it way too fast then can't hold the later interval under the target pace due to fatigue.   

I hit the second tempo mile with a little brisker attack than the first one. 

The first two tempo miles were both 6 minutes and 4 seconds which is about 5-10 sec/mile slower than my 5K race pace.  For the last tempo mile I decided to push it a littler bit harder to try to go under 6 minutes.  The first half mile I didn't want to over do it so I held a little bit back for the second half.  The last half mile I really opened thing up and felt like I was going much faster than the first two intervals. 

So.... when I got my split at 6:24 I wondered why I was so much slower than the first two miles when I felt I was going so much faster.  Does anyone else experience this to where your first interval you feel like you are slow as tar and your split is 30 sec/mile faster than your target pace and your last interval you feel like you are flying and your split is 30 sec/mile slower than your target pace?  




Where are you getting your pace and recovery numbers from ?
You may want to look at something like Daniel's recommendations for all 3 : pace, duration and recovery time.
You will probably find your pace is too fast and your recovery is too long.
2019-02-05 11:51 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

User image


1508
1000500
Cypress, Texas
Subject: RE: Positive Run Split

Originally posted by BikerGrrrl

Two thoughts:

1.  Isn't 5-10 secs slower than 5k pace too fast for a tempo pace?  I thought tempo was more like 10k pace.  (or maybe that's the same thing for you).  That might be part of the problem.

2.  How sure are you about accurate course measurement and also what about wind and elevation changes? 

Edited to add: I am not 100% convinced walking your rest is more accurate than a jog.  Both require discipline.  Certainly try it, but adding another factor isn't necessarily the answer.  

 

5K Pace = 5:45 min/mile

10K Pace =  6:06??? min/mile ???

I am not a 10K guy.  The only time I do the 10K is when they have a 5K start at 8:00AM and the 10K start at 9:00 and they let you reuse your timing chip from the 5K and do both races for and additional $5.   My work out splits are below.  Yes, there was 80 feet of elevation gain and loss one each of these.  I run straight up a hill then turned around when I got to the top and came back down.  The Strave Grade asjusted pace put mile #3 at 5:51, mile#5 at 5:53, and mile #7 at 6:10. 

I have never done a 5K race with 240 feet of elevation gains and losses so I was just giving some rough estimates to indicate roughly where I was at.  I was not dogging these, but was not killing myself either.  Since all three mile repeats were on the same stretch of road they were all identical work and so I expected to be able to feel if I was working harder on one mile than another.  What surprised me is that I felt that the first half mile on the 3rd repeat was even with the way I ran the first two miles and that the last half was faster.  I felt like I might have made the last one under 6:00 and when I checked the time and found I was not only over 5:59, but I was also over the 6:04 that I had hit the first two repeats I was surprised.   

 

Below are the gory details.

 

Splits TimeCumulative TimeMoving TimeDistanceElev GainElev LossAvg PaceAvg Moving PaceBest PaceCalories
17:34.57:34.57:341.0062--7:347:345:48133
27:13.114:487:121.00811557:137:126:09135
36:04.720:526:041.0070366:056:044:57133
47:57.728:507:551.00811357:587:555:06133
56:04.134:546:021.0097766:046:025:09132
68:57.743:528:531.0078538:588:535:16133
76:24.650:166:221.0083486:256:224:53131
88:28.458:458:240.82688410:1710:124:53110
Summary58:4558:4558:267.826206207:317:284:531,040

 



New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Positive Run Split Rss Feed  
RELATED POSTS

Bike to Run Transitions

Started by GooseHunter131
Views: 949 Posts: 7

2018-03-28 8:50 PM GooseHunter131

Plantar fasciitis: do you run with your inserts?

Started by goran007
Views: 4568 Posts: 23

2018-04-12 10:22 AM FlexibleAthlete

Best places to swim, bike, and run in Detroit/Ann Arbor area

Started by michgirlsk
Views: 2866 Posts: 7

2018-07-06 11:15 PM sharpfork

Can I wear "women's" running shoes?

Started by faded_memories
Views: 14741 Posts: 16

2018-06-14 1:27 PM TheCrownsOwn

Running shoes for bunion suffers Pages: 1 2

Started by dodgersmom
Views: 12603 Posts: 28

2018-08-21 1:32 PM Tri-Ing26