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2020-06-03 8:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Riots
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Rogillio For the life of me I cannot understand why every state has yet to deploy the NG. They don’t have to be deployed to confront the rioters, leave that to the cops who are better trained on how to deal with them. But they could be used to guard various stores and monuments and other ‘targets’. You put 100 guardsmen in front of Target in riot gear with batons and now one is going to loot that Target. This would free up cops to respond to the rioters and make arrests. I guess Dems are more worried about politics and optics than ending the riots.
I have a cheaper suggestion. Why don't your leaders speak as much about what he is going to do to fix inequalities as he is about dominating the protesters. It's the right thing to be firm with the anarchists but they are doing NOTHING to calm those that are truly distressed about this. NOTHING. And I don't think it's incompetence. It almost seems intentional

What are the inequalities?




Bingo! In order to solve any problem one must clearly and specifically define the problem.

In college for engineering we were required to put this on all our homework problem. It teaches a disciplined approach for all problem solving:

GIVEN: Clearly state the problem and what is known.

REUIRED: Specify what is required. That is, what does the outcome or answer need to be.

SOLUTION: Show all your work showing how you arrived at a solution.


Clearly “fix inequality” is too broad and nebulous. Didn’t we do this in the 1960s? Don’t we have hundreds of anti-discrimination laws on the books?

Edited by Rogillio 2020-06-03 8:53 AM


2020-06-03 9:31 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Riots

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Rogillio For the life of me I cannot understand why every state has yet to deploy the NG. They don’t have to be deployed to confront the rioters, leave that to the cops who are better trained on how to deal with them. But they could be used to guard various stores and monuments and other ‘targets’. You put 100 guardsmen in front of Target in riot gear with batons and now one is going to loot that Target. This would free up cops to respond to the rioters and make arrests. I guess Dems are more worried about politics and optics than ending the riots.
I have a cheaper suggestion. Why don't your leaders speak as much about what he is going to do to fix inequalities as he is about dominating the protesters. It's the right thing to be firm with the anarchists but they are doing NOTHING to calm those that are truly distressed about this. NOTHING. And I don't think it's incompetence. It almost seems intentional

What are the inequalities?

hah, i was going to ask the exact question. 

So many people try to fix the symptoms while completely ignoring the actual root causes.  Out of wedlock births in the black community were under 20% in the 1960's and now it's over 70%.  Was it white privilege that caused that?
There is a culture problem in the black community and it's rooted in the loss of hope.  Our society drones on and on about how black people are "less than" and that they "can't succeed" so guess what?  Kids hear that and they give up before they've even started.  This isn't just isolated to the black community it's across all demographics in the poor community.  In my experience the people that pretend to care about the black community are always in front of the line talking them down and convincing them that everybody else is keeping them down.

2020-06-03 10:16 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Riots
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Rogillio For the life of me I cannot understand why every state has yet to deploy the NG. They don’t have to be deployed to confront the rioters, leave that to the cops who are better trained on how to deal with them. But they could be used to guard various stores and monuments and other ‘targets’. You put 100 guardsmen in front of Target in riot gear with batons and now one is going to loot that Target. This would free up cops to respond to the rioters and make arrests. I guess Dems are more worried about politics and optics than ending the riots.
I have a cheaper suggestion. Why don't your leaders speak as much about what he is going to do to fix inequalities as he is about dominating the protesters. It's the right thing to be firm with the anarchists but they are doing NOTHING to calm those that are truly distressed about this. NOTHING. And I don't think it's incompetence. It almost seems intentional

What are the inequalities?

hah, i was going to ask the exact question. 

So many people try to fix the symptoms while completely ignoring the actual root causes.  Out of wedlock births in the black community were under 20% in the 1960's and now it's over 70%.  Was it white privilege that caused that?
There is a culture problem in the black community and it's rooted in the loss of hope.  Our society drones on and on about how black people are "less than" and that they "can't succeed" so guess what?  Kids hear that and they give up before they've even started.  This isn't just isolated to the black community it's across all demographics in the poor community.  In my experience the people that pretend to care about the black community are always in front of the line talking them down and convincing them that everybody else is keeping them down.





OK, so you guys are saying it's a level playing field and the problem is their outlook on their situation or poor choices being made.

Did I get this right ?

2020-06-03 10:33 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Riots

You said he needed to fix inequalities.....I asked what inequalities.....I didn't say anything else. 

2020-06-03 11:02 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Riots
If I were advising a black family in the inner city I could have them some advice that would be likely have a 90% success rate.

1. Move! Pack up and move to a small rural town.
2. Get your kids involved in sports and other extracurricular activities
3. Monitor your kids schoolwork. And make sure they do their homework.
4. Work to get your child either an athletic or academic scholarship

My kids HS was about 40% black yet anout 80% of the students went to college! You won’t find a school in the inner city with a record like that.

People living in the inner city are born with 2 strikes against them IMO.

We all have choices in life and the great thing about America is you can live anywhere you want to. Why not choose a city or town where the odds are in your favor and the cards are not stacked against you!?

2020-06-03 11:05 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Riots
Originally posted by Left Brain

You said he needed to fix inequalities.....I asked what inequalities.....I didn't say anything else. 




It's a very complex problem that no country has completely fixed, some much better than others. Some are coming from way further behind.

But to over simplify it, everyone should have equal access to a quality eduction, healthcare, safety and opportunity. What you choose to do with those basic rights is up to you. I'm all for the "you had all these opportunities, you squandered them, FU".

And when it comes to education, just like a child with special needs requires resources above the naturally gifted child, a child from a troubled environment needs special attention.

Take your stats on wealth, education levels, unemployment, incarceration, deaths during crisis.....and it's pretty obvious things are not equal.

Again, no country has done this really well







2020-06-03 11:10 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Riots

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Rogillio For the life of me I cannot understand why every state has yet to deploy the NG. They don’t have to be deployed to confront the rioters, leave that to the cops who are better trained on how to deal with them. But they could be used to guard various stores and monuments and other ‘targets’. You put 100 guardsmen in front of Target in riot gear with batons and now one is going to loot that Target. This would free up cops to respond to the rioters and make arrests. I guess Dems are more worried about politics and optics than ending the riots.
I have a cheaper suggestion. Why don't your leaders speak as much about what he is going to do to fix inequalities as he is about dominating the protesters. It's the right thing to be firm with the anarchists but they are doing NOTHING to calm those that are truly distressed about this. NOTHING. And I don't think it's incompetence. It almost seems intentional

What are the inequalities?

hah, i was going to ask the exact question. 

So many people try to fix the symptoms while completely ignoring the actual root causes.  Out of wedlock births in the black community were under 20% in the 1960's and now it's over 70%.  Was it white privilege that caused that?
There is a culture problem in the black community and it's rooted in the loss of hope.  Our society drones on and on about how black people are "less than" and that they "can't succeed" so guess what?  Kids hear that and they give up before they've even started.  This isn't just isolated to the black community it's across all demographics in the poor community.  In my experience the people that pretend to care about the black community are always in front of the line talking them down and convincing them that everybody else is keeping them down.

OK, so you guys are saying it's a level playing field and the problem is their outlook on their situation or poor choices being made. Did I get this right ?

Here's the simple fact, we're all dealt a hand when we're born.  Some are born into wealthy families, some are born into poverty, some are born into addiction, some are born into abuse, some are born black, some are born white, etc.
America is one of the best places on earth that allows people who are dealt a rough hand to overcome that hand.  Most places you are doomed to whatever hand you were dealt, but in America you are not.  It's up to us as individuals to maximize our potential in our lives and it starts with the attitude of success.  If you believe you cannot be successful in life you dam sure are not going to be successful in life.  That doesn't mean everyone is going to be successful that wants to and it doesn't mean others won't try to get in your way, but it starts there.  So yes, if you have a poor outlook on your situation and make poor choices as a result you will just continue the generational cycle you were born into. 

I do a lot of work with inner city kids and there are many layers to the problem, but it all starts with attitude and hope IMHO.  There are so many programs available that virtually any black kid from the inner city can go to college for free if they want to, but why do do so few go?  They often choose to not go based on their beliefs and attitude about the world around them, not because they don't have opportunity.  "if you aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time" - Zig Ziglar

2020-06-03 11:50 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Riots

There WILL always be people who squander their opportunities....and today that IS the reason for inequality.  Nobody can fix that.

2020-06-03 12:00 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Riots
Pardon my language, but what the **** are you guys even talking about? Is this seriously what you think people are protesting about?

Maybe if George Floyd had believed in himself, gotten a good education and not squandered his opportunities, lived in a better area, etc. then he wouldn't have had officer Derek Chauvin put his knee on his neck until he was dead?

This is about the class difference between the police and the black community. This it about black people getting harassed, arrested, beaten, murdered and often times getting away with it and shielded from consequences. This is about a lack of oversight, about a lack of justice.

How the "issue" turned into the black people being in poverty shows just how tone-deaf we have become. The protests have only further exemplified how quickly LEOs have turned to aggression and violence as a default form of of communication. Just look at the POTUS impromptu visit to Episcopal Diocese the other day. There happened to be a peaceful protest at the park on the way there so they tear gassed them, reporters who didn't even realize what was happening or didn't move fast enough were beat with batons. All this so he could pose in front of the church for a photo op with a bible, I'm sure the irony of it all was lost upon him. There are countless videos of officers at the protests responding with inappropriate and aggressive force, this has only exacerbated the problem.
2020-06-03 12:04 PM
in reply to: Synon

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Subject: RE: Riots

OK - lmao

2020-06-03 12:32 PM
in reply to: Synon

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Subject: RE: Riots
Originally posted by Synon

Pardon my language, but what the **** are you guys even talking about? Is this seriously what you think people are protesting about?

Maybe if George Floyd had believed in himself, gotten a good education and not squandered his opportunities, lived in a better area, etc. then he wouldn't have had officer Derek Chauvin put his knee on his neck until he was dead?

This is about the class difference between the police and the black community. This it about black people getting harassed, arrested, beaten, murdered and often times getting away with it and shielded from consequences. This is about a lack of oversight, about a lack of justice.

How the "issue" turned into the black people being in poverty shows just how tone-deaf we have become. The protests have only further exemplified how quickly LEOs have turned to aggression and violence as a default form of of communication. Just look at the POTUS impromptu visit to Episcopal Diocese the other day. There happened to be a peaceful protest at the park on the way there so they tear gassed them, reporters who didn't even realize what was happening or didn't move fast enough were beat with batons. All this so he could pose in front of the church for a photo op with a bible, I'm sure the irony of it all was lost upon him. There are countless videos of officers at the protests responding with inappropriate and aggressive force, this has only exacerbated the problem.




Earlier in the thread I said this

Originally posted by marcag

I think there are many conversations

Racism and inequalities for minorities
Police brutality
Anarchists and how to deal with them
Right to protest, free speach.....

I think things are turning to speak only about the anarchists and ignoring the rest of the conversations.




All of these topics are coming to the forefront and people are reacting to them differently. This is not about one thing.

Look at your own comment and you went from police beating blacks to Barr/POTUS ordering the police to clear out a crowd for a photo op.


2020-06-03 1:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Riots

This is all I have to say about that...........Synon,  the race relations expert can pontificate from here.

 

I don't know how this case will shake out, but it probably won't be enough.....because it will happen again. I'm just being realistic and rational.....it's a crazy job, and some people shouldn't be doing it, and some lose their minds as they go along because of all they see. And, to be fair, some people will always fight the police....it's the same constant.

We have to have law enforcement if we are going to be a nation of laws, and not lawlessness, and we have no choice but to choose them from among us. There is not a job on the planet that doesn't have problem employees.....the police will never be different. People have issues.....all people.

Until folks are willing to take each incident as it happens, and not try to lump all in the same barrel, again, in fairness, on both sides.....this is apparently what we'll get.

My biggest frustration with this deal, and I said on day one that many cops would suffer for what this dip-chit did, is that we all agreed. If that didn't help this time then I don't think we're going to be able to get past that when it happens again.....so this will just become the new deal. It's going to happen again................and again.

The protestors, and detractors, always want to know where the good cops are that agree when something is wrong.....here we are....made a big difference, huh?

For me.....a front row seat to life has been a great blessing.....if I could die and come back, I'm signing up again as soon as I get old enough.



Edited by Left Brain 2020-06-03 1:09 PM
2020-06-03 1:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Riots
Originally posted by Left Brain


How would you rate your president's handling of the situation ? On a score of 1-10

Edited by marcag 2020-06-03 1:43 PM
2020-06-03 1:50 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Riots

I guess if I'm comparing him to other presidents, and other riots,  he called for national guard troops to be called up before Obama did....so a 10?

I think he's been about the same as other Presidents......

Let me know when we can rate Democrat Mayors of cities where violence has erupted, and Democrat Governors of the states of those cities.......this DOES fall on them you know?

I'm not much in the mood for playing the liberal "get Trump" game right now.

2020-06-03 2:17 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Riots
Lol. It may come as a surprise, but I do agree with everything you wrote. It's unreasonable to expect a mistake to never be made again, but I have to believe we can do better. The other officers on scene that made no attempt to stop him was very concerning, and this seems to be a trend in many of these types of incidents, there are often multiple officers (as there should be).

I appreciate your view "from the inside", you mentioned it will happen again which it will, but no mention of anything we can do to mitigate future incidents. This leads me to believe you don't think there are systemic issues that could potentially be addressed, or am I off base here?

Is there a culture to protect fellow officers even when they are in the wrong? Or do snitches get stitches?

Do you think officers are held accountable in appropriate ways when mistakes are made? Do "higher powers" like police unions interfere?

2020-06-03 2:33 PM
in reply to: Synon

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Subject: RE: Riots

Originally posted by Synon Pardon my language, but what the **** are you guys even talking about? Is this seriously what you think people are protesting about? Maybe if George Floyd had believed in himself, gotten a good education and not squandered his opportunities, lived in a better area, etc. then he wouldn't have had officer Derek Chauvin put his knee on his neck until he was dead? This is about the class difference between the police and the black community. This it about black people getting harassed, arrested, beaten, murdered and often times getting away with it and shielded from consequences. This is about a lack of oversight, about a lack of justice. How the "issue" turned into the black people being in poverty shows just how tone-deaf we have become. The protests have only further exemplified how quickly LEOs have turned to aggression and violence as a default form of of communication. Just look at the POTUS impromptu visit to Episcopal Diocese the other day. There happened to be a peaceful protest at the park on the way there so they tear gassed them, reporters who didn't even realize what was happening or didn't move fast enough were beat with batons. All this so he could pose in front of the church for a photo op with a bible, I'm sure the irony of it all was lost upon him. There are countless videos of officers at the protests responding with inappropriate and aggressive force, this has only exacerbated the problem.

George Floyd did make decisions that didn't help the situation.  He allegedly was committing a crime which resulted on the police being called on him.  According to witnesses he began resisting arrest and refused to get into the car.  Fighting the police was a choice he made.  Unfortunately he made his choices in the presence of a cop that also had issues and made bad choices and we all know what happened from there.  There's an old saying when it comes to law enforcement interaction.  You can beat the rap, but you cannot beat the ride.  Don't EVER resist arrest no matter how innocent you are.

I don't deny that the police harass people of color, but I also don't deny that people of color commit a disproportionate amount of crime.  Is it a chicken or egg thing?  Should the police only investigate equal numbers of white and black people if one group is committing substantially more crime?  Of course not.

For the most part it's not about color at all, it's about poverty and desperation.  Many that commit crimes do it out of desperation and because they don't feel they have any other options in life.  Hell, when I was growing up poor I was quite the delinquent myself and was in and out of jail numerous times.  I can assure you, my color had nothing to do with my choices to do the things I did. 

It's not about being tone deaf, it's about looking for root causes and addressing them.  You seem to think we can leave the black community as is and just force the police and everyone else to just leave them alone and all will be well.  alrighty then. 

There's about 200 black people killed by the police every year.  The vast majority of those are justified.  It's hard to find exact data on how many result in charges against the police, but I bet you can count the number annually on one hand.
The way you talk every black man in America has a target on his back just waiting for the day to get killed by a racist cop.  it's astronomically rare. 

 



2020-06-03 4:29 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Riots
I'm not disputing he made the situation worse for him, but it shouldn't have been a death sentence.

It's not about being tone deaf, it's about looking for root causes and addressing them.  You seem to think we can leave the black community as is and just force the police and everyone else to just leave them alone and all will be well.  alrighty then. 



My point is you are talking about a separate issue. The reasons for the black community committing a disproportionate amount of crimes needs to be addressed, but that is separate issue from police over stepping and hurting/killing people unnecessarily. There will always be crime and there always be a need for LEO's, but a crime isn't a free pass for police to purposefully harm people. Don't you think police have a responsibility to do the least amount of harm possible, even when suspects don't make things easy? You don't think there are officers who enjoy beating people up and causing pain? How officers have reacted to protesters is very telling.
2020-06-03 5:26 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Riots
Originally posted by Left Brain
Let me know when we can rate Democrat Mayors of cities where violence has erupted


Is it a democrat/republican thing or a big city thing ?

2020-06-03 6:44 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Riots

Bro, it's an election year....EVERYTHING is Dem/Rep......and this cycle it has been since the Presidents election.  The Dems have never accepted it.....it's pathetic.

2020-06-03 9:49 PM
in reply to: Synon

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Subject: RE: Riots

Originally posted by Synon I'm not disputing he made the situation worse for him, but it shouldn't have been a death sentence.
It's not about being tone deaf, it's about looking for root causes and addressing them.  You seem to think we can leave the black community as is and just force the police and everyone else to just leave them alone and all will be well.  alrighty then. 
My point is you are talking about a separate issue. The reasons for the black community committing a disproportionate amount of crimes needs to be addressed, but that is separate issue from police over stepping and hurting/killing people unnecessarily. There will always be crime and there always be a need for LEO's, but a crime isn't a free pass for police to purposefully harm people. Don't you think police have a responsibility to do the least amount of harm possible, even when suspects don't make things easy? You don't think there are officers who enjoy beating people up and causing pain? How officers have reacted to protesters is very telling.

Maybe if we made it illegal for a police officer to kill somebody like that it would stop it from happening.  Oh wait, it was already illegal.
I understand your passion on the topic and I agree that it would be great if there was never another person killed without cause again, but it's going to happen on rare occasions no matter what we do.  White people, brown people, black people, you name it are all killed by police every year and occasionally there are bad cops who do it when it shouldn't be done and they absolutely should be prosecuted when that happens. 

Where it gets dicey is there are many cases, and I'll venture to say most cases where the police officer is justified in killing a person but the public venom can't see that and treats the poor innocent man who was killed by the evil racist police as a martyr. 

I know poor black people is a completely separate issue of black people being killed by the police, but it's the root cause to the disproportionate number of black people being detained and arrested.  If we cut poverty in the black community in half I'd venture to say half of the black killings would go down and half of the police shootings would go down.  That's my only point in pivoting to that portion.  We can leave the community alone and leave the crime rates as is and try to focus on police techniques and laws, but it's only trying to focus on the symptoms while ignoring the underlying causes IMHO. 

2020-06-03 11:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Riots
Y'all realize that 10 unarmed black people were killed by the police in 2019 right? That was out of nearly 6,000,000 arrests if you believe that 60% of arrests were black people. 7 of those 10 you never heard of because they were justified by any investigative measure. That's a WAPO stat so the left should be ok with it.So now we are talking about 3 of 6,000,000.....and 2 of those officers were charged.You're being played......again. sorry for the run on paragraph.....cell phone because I'm sitting here watching people be stupid.

Edited by Left Brain 2020-06-03 11:02 PM


2020-06-04 5:33 AM
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How do you guys feel about the use of the military to control the protests ?

My understanding, correct me if i am wrong, is this is the job of the National Guard and not the military ?

I like the concept of a National Guard. We don't have that here is Canada and there have been times something "bigger" than the Police. There was recently an issue that would have required the military if it couldn't be resolved peacefully. Trudeau refused to call in the army. His words were "never should the army be used against Canadian Citizens". I get that. It's ironic since his father, as Prime Minister in the 70s, caused one of the biggest uproars in our history by calling in the Army.

Do you guys agree with the use of the Military ?

2020-06-04 8:37 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Riots
Originally posted by marcag



How do you guys feel about the use of the military to control the protests ?

My understanding, correct me if i am wrong, is this is the job of the National Guard and not the military ?

I like the concept of a National Guard. We don't have that here is Canada and there have been times something "bigger" than the Police. There was recently an issue that would have required the military if it couldn't be resolved peacefully. Trudeau refused to call in the army. His words were "never should the army be used against Canadian Citizens". I get that. It's ironic since his father, as Prime Minister in the 70s, caused one of the biggest uproars in our history by calling in the Army.

Do you guys agree with the use of the Military ?




I fail to see much difference in the NG and active duty components. If things are out of control of local authorities I’m for restoring law and order and I don’t care if it is NG or Army or Sherif’s reserves of the Navy!
2020-06-04 8:37 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Riots

Originally posted by marcag How do you guys feel about the use of the military to control the protests ? My understanding, correct me if i am wrong, is this is the job of the National Guard and not the military ? I like the concept of a National Guard. We don't have that here is Canada and there have been times something "bigger" than the Police. There was recently an issue that would have required the military if it couldn't be resolved peacefully. Trudeau refused to call in the army. His words were "never should the army be used against Canadian Citizens". I get that. It's ironic since his father, as Prime Minister in the 70s, caused one of the biggest uproars in our history by calling in the Army. Do you guys agree with the use of the Military ?

I have mixed feelings.  I do agree that the national guard is the more appropriate entity to augment law enforcement with the crowds.  My trepidation is mostly from the military having a tendency to be more trigger happy when things get out of line.  The last thing we need right now is a dozen protesters shot and killed by the military. 

2020-06-04 8:39 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Originally posted by Left Brain Y'all realize that 10 unarmed black people were killed by the police in 2019 right? That was out of nearly 6,000,000 arrests if you believe that 60% of arrests were black people. 7 of those 10 you never heard of because they were justified by any investigative measure. That's a WAPO stat so the left should be ok with it.So now we are talking about 3 of 6,000,000.....and 2 of those officers were charged.You're being played......again. sorry for the run on paragraph.....cell phone because I'm sitting here watching people be stupid.

Thanks for putting some numbers to it.

I agree that people are losing their marbles over something that's so astronomically rare.  If you went to the protesters and asked 100 of them if we could reduce the instances down to 2 per 6 million encounters I'm betting they would all consider that a wild success and go home happy. 

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