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The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming (Page 2)
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 2007-01-17 10:53 AM in reply to: #656647 |
Regular 54 |  Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimmingmost important thing we have to remember is that in a triathlon, the swim portion is not a sprint, even though it may be categorized as a "sprint race." to a competitive swimmer, anything under 100yards or meters is a sprint, everything else becomes middle distance or distance events. keeping that in mind, the point of not breathing in a sprint is to keep the body in the same position as long as posssible, because every time we inhale, the body actually sinks a bit. in distance swimming the most important thing is to keep the stroke efficient and long. so if one swims efficiently breathing every 2 strokes or 5, as long as they can sustain throughout the swim it doesn't matter. each person is going to have their own comforts and preferences, and there's no real right answer to how often one should breathe. increaing vo2 in our lungs is better achieved by challenging our hearts and lungs with faster interval sets. |
| 2007-01-17 2:44 PM in reply to: #656647 |
Supersonicus Idioticus 2439   Thunder Bay, ON | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming Hypoxic swimming makes you go into oxygen saving mode. In other words, you learn how to swim using less oxygen (i.e. kick less, do fewer unnecessary movements). I do hypoxic 50s by breathing every 7 or 9. The stupidest thing I've done was trying to beat my coach's record of 100y no breath. I went 75m, touched the wall then blacked out. |
| 2007-01-17 3:06 PM in reply to: #658214 |
Veteran 252 Chicago and therabouts | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming The stupidest thing I've done was trying to beat my coach's record of 100y no breath. I went 75m, touched the wall then blacked out...... Exactly the point of why not to do hypoxic sets...Passing out on dryland...not so bad..In a pool...not so good. There are far better ways at working on swimming economy/effeciency than depriving your body of oxygen.. JT |
| 2007-01-17 3:53 PM in reply to: #658214 |
Champion 11641   Fairport, NY | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming So Fresh So Clean - 2007-01-17 3:44 PM Hypoxic swimming makes you go into oxygen saving mode. In other words, you learn how to swim using less oxygen (i.e. kick less, do fewer unnecessary movements). references please. |
| 2007-01-17 6:57 PM in reply to: #656950 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming SunnyS - 2007-01-16 3:34 PM I agree and would not advise breath-holding drills for any triathlete. Even the shortest outdoor sprint is still mostly an aerobic, not anaerobic effort. And for rec/masters/competitive lap-swimmers, it seems pointless to torture one's own breathing. Pink skin, happy lungs, and bright red O2-rich blood is good. Just for the record, a 400m sprint on the track is 85% aerobic. :-) So a aprint triathlon is probably around 98% aerobic. |
| 2007-01-17 8:41 PM in reply to: #656647 |
Champion 5345 Carlsbad, California | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming I guess I am sort of suprised that folks are debating this. Seems pretty clear that this is not a valid training technique. (At least as far as Distance Swimming is concerned) As you have pointed out AB, "Hypoxic Swimming" does not so much starve the body of oxygen as it does flood the body in Carbon Dioxide. Not sure I see how that is ever going to help improve endurance, strength or efficiency. I suspect that folks might be getting this confused with High Altitude training where you aclimate and/or train in an oxygen poor (and Lower Pressure) environment. In these environments, the body is starved for oxygen and the body adapts. But it is clearly not the same as "Hypoxic Swimming" since the body is still free to expell excess carbon dioxide. I look forward to your article when you finish it. (Although this type of training is not something I would have ever put much stock in) Thanks for the post  |
| 2007-01-18 12:41 AM in reply to: #656647 |
Expert 1238 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming If carbon dioxide build-up is the problem, then just exhale while you swim. Just don't breathe in. Everybody wins. |
| 2007-01-18 5:59 AM in reply to: #658692 |
Extreme Veteran 348 Cary, NC | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming WaterDog66 - 2007-01-17 9:41 PM I guess I am sort of suprised that folks are debating this. Seems pretty clear that this is not a valid training technique. (At least as far as Distance Swimming is concerned) As you have pointed out AB, "Hypoxic Swimming" does not so much starve the body of oxygen as it does flood the body in Carbon Dioxide. Not sure I see how that is ever going to help improve endurance, strength or efficiency. I suspect that folks might be getting this confused with High Altitude training where you aclimate and/or train in an oxygen poor (and Lower Pressure) environment. In these environments, the body is starved for oxygen and the body adapts. But it is clearly not the same as "Hypoxic Swimming" since the body is still free to expell excess carbon dioxide. I look forward to your article when you finish it. (Although this type of training is not something I would have ever put much stock in) Thanks for the post
It doesn't seem so much a debate, as a repeated confirmation of the same viewpoint. |
| 2007-10-30 6:31 PM in reply to: #658853 |
| 38 | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming kapinto - 2007-01-18 5:59 AM It doesn't seem so much a debate, as a repeated confirmation of the same viewpoint. kapinto, the trouble is that this topic SCREAMS for repetitive disclosure. If you read the thread from back in January, only 3 out of 42 posters are common to that thread & this one! I realize many may have read, but not posted, still when information comes out not everyone sees it or believes it. Can't you hear the refrains... hey, I do hypoxic sets & I swim faster/better/longer/etc. than I ever had, so they must be good &/or work. AdventureBear, thanks for lending a scientific explanation for this. It should be required reading for anyone who walks a pool deck with impressionable swimmers! As a coach I love myth busting. My mentor(s) have helped me not just learn to teach great swimming, but to UNDERSTAND what I teach. Lack of understanding is the single biggest shortcoming among swim "coaches" at all levels, including triathlon, IMHO. A few asked why is hypoxic breathing done. A few others related how they had done these exercises either as age groupers or even recently in masters (coached) sessions. This is just one of a myriad of swimming techniques that are taught to today's swimmers because the instructor did it as a member of yesterday's swimming generation. This inertia has hurt swimming in general & continues to limit the success of the overwhelming majority of swimmers at all but the top levels of the sport(s). Basically, MOST coaches do what they were taught as swimmers. What they "know" about swimming development isn't worth much, sadly. I was like that when I started coaching about 10 yrs. ago. I was an NCAA level swimmer, but never asked questions about WHY I did certain things & my coaches didn't offer explanations. They wound me up & I went as fast as I could - pull, kick, swim. It's the same today. You may hear "buzz words" that are modern, but don't look for the underlying understanding or explanations that tie it all together. Sorry, off my soapbox now... |
| 2007-10-30 6:58 PM in reply to: #656784 |
| Veteran 451 | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming RedCorvette - 2007-01-16 4:13 PM Thinking about it somewhat logically, if hypoxic drills were good for you physiologically during swimming, then they should also help your running and cycling, right? Don't seem to remember any running or cycling coaches advocating holding your breath during training. Mark Actually I knew a seal that used hypoxic training when he was running. I'm pretty sure they teach them that. He would hold his breath between telephone poles. |
| 2007-10-30 7:17 PM in reply to: #1030569 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming bigscarymonster - 2007-10-30 6:58 PM RedCorvette - 2007-01-16 4:13 PM Thinking about it somewhat logically, if hypoxic drills were good for you physiologically during swimming, then they should also help your running and cycling, right? Don't seem to remember any running or cycling coaches advocating holding your breath during training. Mark Actually I knew a seal that used hypoxic training when he was running. I'm pretty sure they teach them that. He would hold his breath between telephone poles. Wow, the training at Sea World has gotten really intense. I can only imagine what they've got the poor dolphins doing. |
| 2007-10-30 8:26 PM in reply to: #656784 |
Master 2381 Frisco, Texas | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming RedCorvette - 2007-01-16 3:13 PM Of course that was also back the days when we were forbidden to drink water during 900F summer football workouts lest we get cramps. Mark Ha! You and I must have had the same football coach. When I think about those days and some of the coaching concepts they used...I have to laugh. TJ |
| 2007-10-30 8:31 PM in reply to: #656789 |
Master 2381 Frisco, Texas | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming sappho96 - 2007-01-16 3:15 PM thanks adventure - so why do coaches recommend it? also, any thoughts on how i can improve my lung capacity? gym bunny recommends chest press to open the lungs up, others recommend power breathe thingy, coach obviously likes hypoxic...
btw i do my preventative inhaler as directed and my curative (is that even a word??) as and when, and see my asthma nurse regularly. blah blah... I'm pretty sure lung capcity is a genetic trait and you can't improve it. However, you can improve your bodies ability to use your given lung capacity. It's called aerobic condtioning. Now get out there and swim, bike, run! TJ |
| 2007-10-30 10:35 PM in reply to: #656647 |
Member 6 Centennial | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming I read the entire thread - and can't help but post. As former collegiate swimmer (4:49 for a 500 yard free), I spent a lot of time alternate breathing. It was the thing 20 + years ago. And, we did some hypoxic training. I’ve learned to approach triathlon differently. Go by what air you need to swim fast with minimum heartbeats. Breathe every stroke, and alternate breathe only to sight buoys or competitors. Here's why: 1. A triathlon swim is completely different from a competitive swim, and the training differs too. Competitive swim is about the getting fastest time and being totally spent at the end. 1/10’s of a second make a difference between winning and losing. Head position counts. Triathlon, conversely, is about exiting the swim with a competitive time, ready to kick on the bike and run. It’s about efficient speed, not maximum speed. Frankly, I wish it were different - the swim is my strength – but its not. 2. While hypoxic sounds interesting –it focuses on dealing with a lack of oxygen, for a limited period of time. That’s not triathlon. 3. Frankly – we really didn’t do much with hypoxic anyway. We did alternate breathing to “keep stroke balance” vs. deprivation. 4. So - breathe all you want. When you train or race. Focus on great “pull technique”, and efficient speed. Figure out the speed you want to achieve, and train at that speed and faster – and breathe every stroke if that feels better. I work out to a “goal speed”. My focus is to do a 500 yard to 1500 meter swim with 1:15 -1:20 per 100 unit intervals – and exit feeling “warmed up – not worn out”. Your speed can be what you want – but you need to focus on how to swim to that speed with minimum effort, not maximum effort. In my experience, hypoxic doesn’t help in that goal. More on pull technique, and goal speed workouts later. |
| 2007-10-31 12:55 AM in reply to: #1030716 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming zia_cyclist - 2007-10-30 7:31 PM sappho96 - 2007-01-16 3:15 PM thanks adventure - so why do coaches recommend it? also, any thoughts on how i can improve my lung capacity? gym bunny recommends chest press to open the lungs up, others recommend power breathe thingy, coach obviously likes hypoxic...
btw i do my preventative inhaler as directed and my curative (is that even a word??) as and when, and see my asthma nurse regularly. blah blah... I'm pretty sure lung capcity is a genetic trait and you can't improve it. However, you can improve your bodies ability to use your given lung capacity. It's called aerobic condtioning. Now get out there and swim, bike, run! TJ It's not even that it's genetic, it's that it is not a limiter in endurance performance. Next time you max out your run or cycling...you'll be breathign hard. Force yourself to breath harder, it can be done...but it won't make you run any faster. Ventilation of carbon dioxide and supply of oxygen via the lungs simply are not limiting factors in endurance performance, period! |
| 2007-10-31 8:37 AM in reply to: #656647 |
Champion 5575 Butler | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming I have never been a competitive swimmer, heck, I only learned to swim laps 1.5yrs ago so I have had to do the hypoxic drills. Like others have said this is really a competitive swimmers drill and not a tri swimming drill but if you go to master's classes they will probably do them because they are training you to pool race. Also, it is also not as dangerous there because there are people around to save you. If you are at your local fitness center at 4:00am probably not so smart. |
| 2007-10-31 9:28 AM in reply to: #656647 |
| Expert 1233 | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming I usually breath on my right every stroke, I've been practicing breathing on the left to balance my stroke. Now I'm trying to alternate my breaths. Is this necessary, or should I just stick to the right side? I prefer breathing every stroke, must be some affinity toward oxygen. |
| 2007-10-31 9:32 AM in reply to: #1031245 |
Champion 5575 Butler | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming vonschnapps - 2007-10-31 9:28 AM I usually breath on my right every stroke, I've been practicing breathing on the left to balance my stroke. Now I'm trying to alternate my breaths. Is this necessary, or should I just stick to the right side? I prefer breathing every stroke, must be some affinity toward oxygen. Breathing every 3 strokes as it advantages and I would not consider this hypoxtic breathing. Every three stroke breathing allow you to do a few things. 1st sight better and 2nd if you have someone on one side who is always hitting you if you breath every 3 strokes you will get hit less. |
| 2007-10-31 11:36 AM in reply to: #1031138 |
| 38 | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming kproudfoot - 2007-10-31 8:37 AM I have never been a competitive swimmer, heck, I only learned to swim laps 1.5yrs ago so I have had to do the hypoxic drills. Like others have said this is really a competitive swimmers drill and not a tri swimming drill but if you go to master's classes they will probably do them because they are training you to pool race. Also, it is also not as dangerous there because there are people around to save you. If you are at your local fitness center at 4:00am probably not so smart. kproudfoot, I'm not sure why you HAD to do hypoxic drills. Was it because you didn't know better as a novice swimmer & you simply did what the "coach" said? I'd bet a month's pay that just as many (& probably more) tri groups do hypoxic as do swim groups. One reason is that tri-swim coaches get their "knowledge" from either being swimmers themselves or from swimming resources. Another reason would be the mis-perceived benefit of this activity. I also think that triathletes approach swimming differently, with a much more "type A" mentality than do swimmers. It's not just "No Pain, No Gain", it's "More Pain, More Gain". Combine these elements with a predominantly freestyle diet & it's a recipe for hypoxia-mania! vonschnapps - 2007-10-31 9:28 AM I usually breath on my right every stroke, I've been practicing breathing on the left to balance my stroke. Now I'm trying to alternate my breaths. Is this necessary, or should I just stick to the right side? I prefer breathing every stroke, must be some affinity toward oxygen. vonschnapps, keep up the both-side (bilateral) breathing!!! As you said, it balances your stroke, but it also gives you options when you race. Mostly, you can breathe away from trouble. And don't worry about breathing every two strokes to either side, just (learn to) make those breaths a seamless part of the stroke not an interruption. |
| 2007-10-31 11:43 AM in reply to: #1031249 |
| 38 | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming kproudfoot - 2007-10-31 9:32 AM Breathing every 3 strokes as it advantages and I would not consider this hypoxtic breathing. Every three stroke breathing allow you to do a few things. 1st sight better and 2nd if you have someone on one side who is always hitting you if you breath every 3 strokes you will get hit less. I'm not a triathlete although I have done some tri relays & do open water swimming, but how does bilateral breathing help you sight better? And I don't get how bilateral breathing will keep you from getting hit(?) more. Surely if you breathe every 3, you're gonna get hit just as often since you take the same amount of breaths to both sides, no? |
| 2007-10-31 11:58 AM in reply to: #656647 |
Master 1790 Tyler, TX | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming I've always hated hypoxic sets, mainly because I've never been able hold my breath underwater as long as the coaches seemed to think I could. They probably thought it was lack of mental toughness... This morning we did a short 6x25 no breathing set, with the 3rd and 6th fly. Given |
| 2007-10-31 11:59 AM in reply to: #1031138 |
Champion 8936 | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming I don't think it really matters who performs it. It's a drill based on a faulty concept, and it's potentially dangerous. People drown all the time in a pool full of people. kproudfoot - 2007-10-31 8:37 AM I have never been a competitive swimmer, heck, I only learned to swim laps 1.5yrs ago so I have had to do the hypoxic drills. Like others have said this is really a competitive swimmers drill and not a tri swimming drill but if you go to master's classes they will probably do them because they are training you to pool race. Also, it is also not as dangerous there because there are people around to save you. If you are at your local fitness center at 4:00am probably not so smart. |
| 2007-10-31 12:06 PM in reply to: #1031557 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming DerekL - 2007-10-31 10:59 AM I don't think it really matters who performs it. It's a drill based on a faulty concept, and it's potentially dangerous. People drown all the time in a pool full of people. kproudfoot - 2007-10-31 8:37 AM I have never been a competitive swimmer, heck, I only learned to swim laps 1.5yrs ago so I have had to do the hypoxic drills. Like others have said this is really a competitive swimmers drill and not a tri swimming drill but if you go to master's classes they will probably do them because they are training you to pool race. Also, it is also not as dangerous there because there are people around to save you. If you are at your local fitness center at 4:00am probably not so smart. Besides, my job would be pretty boring if it was all ear aches and belly pain. CPR and intubation is the best way to start off a shift. |
| 2007-10-31 12:08 PM in reply to: #1031557 |
Champion 11641 Fairport, NY | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming Just to reinforce this: I knew someone who died in a pool full of people for this very reason and he was a very strong competitive swimmer. I do not want to ever have to include more than one person as the subject when I say or write the above sentence. Hypoxic swim drills are of no value, particularly to triathletes, and are dangerous. Even if there are a lot of people in the pool, very bad things can happen from being unconscious underwater for even just a minute. DerekL - 2007-10-31 12:59 PM I don't think it really matters who performs it. It's a drill based on a faulty concept, and it's potentially dangerous. People drown all the time in a pool full of people. kproudfoot - 2007-10-31 8:37 AM I have never been a competitive swimmer, heck, I only learned to swim laps 1.5yrs ago so I have had to do the hypoxic drills. Like others have said this is really a competitive swimmers drill and not a tri swimming drill but if you go to master's classes they will probably do them because they are training you to pool race. Also, it is also not as dangerous there because there are people around to save you. If you are at your local fitness center at 4:00am probably not so smart. |
| 2007-10-31 12:37 PM in reply to: #657113 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: The Myth of Hypoxic Swimming kapinto - 2007-01-16 9:20 PM So then, what is the optimum number of strokes between breathing to keep your stroke efficient, without endangering yourself? I know I try to breathe every 4-5 strokes, but when I get tired after the first few laps, I always resort to every 2-3 strokes. It all depends on how hard you're working and how quickly you turn over. Listen to your body: it's pretty good at telling you when you need to breathe. |
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