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2007-01-20 1:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
amiine - 2007-01-20 10:08 AM That’s very interesting and good to know! I like to follow what the scientific world has to say regarding tri training based on testing, but as you already mentioned “the art of coaching” it is also as much or even more important. Once you start working and knowing an athlete it is crazy how many things a coach needs to consider in order to help him/her to achieve athletic goals in many cases with limited time. It is pretty cool to see/learn how guys like you make it look easy because of your years of experience and it is a good reminder that even when coaching might not be rocket science, it isn’t as simple as many want to believe.

Anyway, I’ll continue to patiently wait to have a chance to pick your brain if you get to offer some sort of coaching course    Hey do you guys offer training camps? I looked on your website but couldn’t find anything…

Training Camps: we have camps but we do those for our athletes only.



2007-01-20 2:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
mikericci - 2007-01-20 12:27 PM

Carl Carlson - 2007-01-20 9:21 AM
mikericci - 2007-01-20 12:09 PM Just an idea for you guys, but I use 3 week blocks, not 4. I know many Elites who do it this way and I find my crew gets many more quality workouts in over a season. I know that sometimes that 3rd week in a 4 week block can drag -so I like 3 week blocks. :-)
I assume you're talking for periodization purposes? If it's periodization, is it overall volume or sport specific? eg: you might have a 3 week block where you build up bike miles, then the next 3 week block build run miles, etc. Is this something pulled out of Friel's TTB?

Yes, I am. It can be used for either sport specific or overall volume. I use it in my normal every day training cycles. This is not from the TTB, no. This is from years of experience and experimentation.


So if you do a 2 week build with 1 week recovery... does that mean you cram 3 weeks of intensity into those 2 weeks? Or just business as usual in a 2:1 ratio?
2007-01-20 2:34 PM
in reply to: #660681

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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
That 3 week period instead of 4 seems interesting.
I always kind of break down during the 3'rd week and tend to drop all intensive workouts half way through this week because I just can't take them any more - or find the motivation to start them is maybe a better way to put it.
I'm training for a marathon in March, so very focussed on running until then with a specific marathon training program. After that I will start preparing my first HIM for August. I think I am going to re-arange my training schedule and try this for the HIM!
2007-01-20 4:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
Carl Carlson - 2007-01-20 12:13 PM
mikericci - 2007-01-20 12:27 PM

Carl Carlson - 2007-01-20 9:21 AM
mikericci - 2007-01-20 12:09 PM Just an idea for you guys, but I use 3 week blocks, not 4. I know many Elites who do it this way and I find my crew gets many more quality workouts in over a season. I know that sometimes that 3rd week in a 4 week block can drag -so I like 3 week blocks. :-)
I assume you're talking for periodization purposes? If it's periodization, is it overall volume or sport specific? eg: you might have a 3 week block where you build up bike miles, then the next 3 week block build run miles, etc. Is this something pulled out of Friel's TTB?

Yes, I am. It can be used for either sport specific or overall volume. I use it in my normal every day training cycles. This is not from the TTB, no. This is from years of experience and experimentation.

So if you do a 2 week build with 1 week recovery... does that mean you cram 3 weeks of intensity into those 2 weeks? Or just business as usual in a 2:1 ratio?

I don't suggest cramming intensity into your training weeks, just business as usual.

2007-01-20 6:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
Since the thread is a total hijack anyway, I'm going to ask a question. What might cause a LTHR field test to give a higher number than expected? I did it properly w/ hitting the split button at the 10" mark and taking the average from the last 20" and the last 20 was 10 bpm higher than the first 10" so I didn't go out too hard initially. Is it bad to have a relatively high LTHR this time of year or is that something that is maintainable? I don't want to be a winter 'hero' and summer dud and that is why I'm concerned.
2007-01-20 8:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
xterratri - 2007-01-20 7:44 PM

Since the thread is a total hijack anyway, I'm going to ask a question. What might cause a LTHR field test to give a higher number than expected? I did it properly w/ hitting the split button at the 10" mark and taking the average from the last 20" and the last 20 was 10 bpm higher than the first 10" so I didn't go out too hard initially. Is it bad to have a relatively high LTHR this time of year or is that something that is maintainable? I don't want to be a winter 'hero' and summer dud and that is why I'm concerned.

How does it compare to your old numbers? Or was this your first test?

I recently did my LT 30' TT (here's the thread) and got similar results. My avg HR for the first 10' of the test was like 165 if I recall and the last 20' was 178. I just attribute that to making sure I didn't go out too hard from the start and fizzle out at the end. I think that's the intention too since they have you take your avg HR over the last 20' of the test.

From what I can gather, aside from getting lab tests or blood work or some other expensive testing method, this field test is going to get you in the ballpark. Is it going to be exact? Probably not, but it'll be close and you can listen to cues from your body and adjust accordingly. From my recent readings, it seems one's Aerobic Threshold typically falls at the top of their Z1... one indication of that is that point where you first start to breathe a little deeper. For me, that happens right around 150 which is the top of my Z1.... so, that gives me a bit of confidence that my zones are pretty close.

What's the point of all this? I don't know I think I might be getting off track. Anyhoo, it sounds like you got a significantly higher number than you expected. The same thing happened to me, but I chalk that up to a crummy first test. Maybe you're in the same boat? Maybe you went out and pushed a little too hard this time? From what I gather, your LT isn't going to significantly change over time... the change you should notice is your pace at that level of effort increasing as your fitness level increases.


2007-01-20 9:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
Carl Carlson - 2007-01-20 9:49 PM

Maybe you went out and pushed a little too hard this time?


This is what I'm worried about. I thought by nature of the test that it wasn't possible to go too hard if the pace/effort was sustainable to the end and I definitely still had something left. I've only done one test before and that was almost a year ago. This number was definitely much higher and was actually reasonably close to my age predicted max(yes, I have the physiology background to know that age predicted max HR are a bunch of hooey). I could probably ride a 40 K at that effort level but think I would be hurting on the run afterwards... but maybe I've just always weenied out and backed off before I should have in the past. That certainly explains some of my 'race' performances.
2007-01-20 10:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
there is no correct number for your LT HR. It is what it is. Start basing your trianing on the zones from the test and see how they feel.
2007-01-21 7:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

"From my recent readings, it seems one's Aerobic Threshold typically falls at the top of their Z1... one indication of that is that point where you first start to breathe a little deeper. For me, that happens right around 150 which is the top of my Z1"

 

I'd be interested to read those articles you are referring to.  I just had my lactate threshold tested by a sports performance lab, and it is my impression that zone 1 (recovery) is pure recovery, so you shouldn't be anywhere near aerobic threshold.  The RPE is supposed to be 1-2.   z2 (overdistance) training as explained to me, will be at a slighly higher intensity than the recovery zone (z1), but still aerobic.  In zone 2, RPE will be 3-4.  In looking at the stats from my test, the top of my z1 is 126 while the top of my z2 is 147, roughly the point of AT for me. 

2007-01-21 8:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
sbreaux - 2007-01-21 8:46 AM

"From my recent readings, it seems one's Aerobic Threshold typically falls at the top of their Z1... one indication of that is that point where you first start to breathe a little deeper. For me, that happens right around 150 which is the top of my Z1"

I'd be interested to read those articles you are referring to. I just had my lactate threshold tested by a sports performance lab, and it is my impression that zone 1 (recovery) is pure recovery, so you shouldn't be anywhere near aerobic threshold. The RPE is supposed to be 1-2. z2 (overdistance) training as explained to me, will be at a slighly higher intensity than the recovery zone (z1), but still aerobic. In zone 2, RPE will be 3-4. In looking at the stats from my test, the top of my z1 is 126 while the top of my z2 is 147, roughly the point of AT for me.


Here's one I keep referring/linking to over the past couple of days:
http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/steady1.html

There are a couple more that I recall, but they're bookmarked at work and I'm at home now. Anyhoo, I think we're on the same page, more or less. Here are my ranges for Z1 and Z2:

Z1: 117-151
Z2: 152-161

So yeah, if I were to exercise mid-Z1, it'd feel like a cakewalk. As I alluded to earlier, my breathing changes right at the top of Z1, which is what Mike Ricci also references in that article. Here's an excerpt: "Once I jump over that magical number of 147-150 I see a change in my breathing and my effort is increased. I can still run aerobically here, don’t get me wrong, but I am no longer running ‘easy’. You should feel and even hear a change in your breathing pattern. This is when you are running ‘Steady’."

I guess what I'm wondering now is... assuming AeT is the point where your breathing changes... how does one know if they're still working aerobically if they're slightly above/beyond that point? Is there a rule-of-thumb that says 3bpm over AeT is still aerobic, but 5bpm over AeT is too much? Or as long as I'm still on Z2, I'm OK?

In this article, Joe Friel talks about AeT training:
http://www.ultrafit.com/newsletter/january06.html#JF

One line that catches my attention: "When training at the aerobic threshold all of the key aerobic systems are stressed and the stress can be maintained for relatively long periods of time just as one must be able to do in an endurance race."

So if I want to stress my aerobic system, does that mean I should train slightly below my AeT? Or at my AeT? Or just slightly beyond my AeT? It seems to me training below isn't going to put much stress on it... training at AeT will stress it, but is it enough to make it adapt? Would it make more sense to go slightly past? I know in strength training the idea is to overload the muscle to make it adapt/grow... does the same apply to the aerobic system and/or CNS?

OK, that's enough... I think I'm just wasting everyone's time at this point.
2007-01-21 11:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Carl Carlson - 2007-01-21 7:14 AM
sbreaux - 2007-01-21 8:46 AM 

 So if I want to stress my aerobic system, does that mean I should train slightly below my AeT? Or at my AeT? Or just slightly beyond my AeT? It seems to me training below isn't going to put much stress on it... training at AeT will stress it, but is it enough to make it adapt? Would it make more sense to go slightly past? I know in strength training the idea is to overload the muscle to make it adapt/grow... does the same apply to the aerobic system and/or CNS? OK, that's enough... I think I'm just wasting everyone's time at this point.

 Thanks for the articles.  I am far from being an expert, so hopefully they will chime in.  But I would think you want most of your training at or slightly below, a few workouts above, and then some easy z1 workouts to aid recovery.  In my test, it was determined from the results that I should put in more z3 workouts, or ones that will get my HR moderately above AeT.  My lactate levels are fairly level to 5-7 beats over AeT, but then they start to rise.  Obviously, the idea is to keep lactate levels as stable as possible even as you increase intensity.  Most of my training has been LSD, so I need more harder paced workouts to get my body accustomed to that stress level.  Before my test, my idea of HR based training was keeping it below 80% of max. 



2007-01-21 12:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
sbreaux - 2007-01-21 12:49 PM

Thanks for the articles. I am far from being an expert, so hopefully they will chime in. But I would think you want most of your training at or slightly below, a few workouts above, and then some easy z1 workouts to aid recovery. In my test, it was determined from the results that I should put in more z3 workouts, or ones that will get my HR moderately above AeT. My lactate levels are fairly level to 5-7 beats over AeT, but then they start to rise. Obviously, the idea is to keep lactate levels as stable as possible even as you increase intensity. Most of my training has been LSD, so I need more harder paced workouts to get my body accustomed to that stress level. Before my test, my idea of HR based training was keeping it below 80% of max.

Thanks, I'm far from an expert myself... just trying to make sense of all the information that's available.

It sounds like your zones are established via the lab testing... I'm assuming each zone is based on some sort of physiological trigger/sign... did they provide your lactate threshold? If you plug that into the Mike Ricci's spreadsheet (which is based on Friel's TTB, if I recall) how do your zones match up with the lab results?

It also sounds like we're at similar places in our training... since October, all of my runs have been Z1, below my AeT. Just within the past week I started bumping my runs up to Z2 and it's quite a change of pace (no pun intended). Again, going back to Mike Ricci's article, running at that pace/zone takes more effort, but is still fairly comfortable.
2007-01-21 12:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

 

Yes, I believe my zones were based on the overall results, not just based on my LT.  My LT is 168 and my max HR is 175.  My zones are somewhat wider than what Mike's spreadsheet would suggest, but fairly similar.  For example, my z3 is between 147-164.  Anything is better than what I was using before. 

Good luck with the training.

 

2007-01-21 2:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

When you say "relatively high LTHR" what are you comparing it to?  If you are judging relative to other people then it's not a valid comparison.  If it is relative to a previous test then there are a couple of options.  Maybe you're training has been effective at increasing your LTHR, maybe there were some variations in the testing and/or conditions that could have resulted in inconsistent results, or maybe you just performed the test better this time.  The first few time you do a field test like this chances are that you won't hit the optimum intensity right from the start.  Being able to pace is critical in these tests.  You need to find that almost unsustainable effort and have the mental toughness to hold on.  Until you've had some practice the tendency is to go out too hard and punk out or simply not have the confidence in yourself to push the upper end.  It's not so much confidence as a matter of experience and knowing what you can sustain. So, if you followed the protocol correctly (and it sounds like you did) then use the results to base you training from for now.  In another 6-8 weeks test again but remember that for comparable results you want to have comparable testing conditions...everything from your mental and physiologic state (rested, hydrated, sufficient nutrition) to the weather and the location where you test.  Either use a local track or find yourself a 3-4 mile loop that you can use each time.

xterratri - 2007-01-20 7:44 PM Since the thread is a total hijack anyway, I'm going to ask a question. What might cause a LTHR field test to give a higher number than expected? I did it properly w/ hitting the split button at the 10" mark and taking the average from the last 20" and the last 20 was 10 bpm higher than the first 10" so I didn't go out too hard initially. Is it bad to have a relatively high LTHR this time of year or is that something that is maintainable? I don't want to be a winter 'hero' and summer dud and that is why I'm concerned.

2007-01-22 7:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
-----Basically, did a 30 min TT on the trainer. I did a 10 min WU and then started. After 10 min I hit the lap and recorded for the next 20 min. By the end I couldn't put much more effort into pushing the pedals any harder. My average HR for the last 20 min was 149.-----

I ended up doing the Run test Sunday and I guess what they say about the run HR being about 10 beats more than the bike is true. I ended up with 159, exactly 10 beats higher. Did the same 30 min TT around the river. Not as much wind as I expected so that was good.

My next question is how will I know if my fitness level has increased or decreased the next time I do the testing. What things will show on my results either way. I didn't measure distance during the test, only time.

By the way, did a swim test too. I did 10x100 on 10 sec rest. I ended up with a total time of 19:57, subtract 90 sec for rest, and it gave me a total swim time of 18:27. That breaks down to roughly 1:45 - 1:50 per 100. Definitely room for improvement.
2007-01-22 8:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

nel34 - 2007-01-22 7:25 AM  By the way, did a swim test too. I did 10x100 on 10 sec rest. I ended up with a total time of 19:57, subtract 90 sec for rest, and it gave me a total swim time of 18:27. That breaks down to roughly 1:45 - 1:50 per 100. Definitely room for improvement.

Not sure I'd count that as a valid swim test due to the rests (no matter how short they are).  You should do the 1000 yds non-stop and then get your average for 100 from that.



2007-01-22 5:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Hi Jason-

For the swim test I like to use the protocol suggested by Gale Bernhardt. 3X300m TT w/30sec recoveries.  Your average 100m time for the 900m would be your T-pace or threshold pace.  If your 300m times are more than ~10sec different then you should look to improve your pacing the next time you test.

As for measuring fitness improvements - One suggestion would be to do your testing on a track and figure out how far your ran during the test.  Since it's an all-out 30min effort it should simply come down to covering more distance at your max sustainable effort. Generally, if your LTHR increases you can assume increased fitness but that isn't always the case so be careful when making that comparison.  What we are really looking to do is push our LTHR closer to our HR at VO2max.  Unfortunately, the only accurate way to determine VO2max is with clinical testing and it can get expensive to re-test several times a year.

2007-01-22 5:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
Birkierunner - 2007-01-22 6:28 AM

nel34 - 2007-01-22 7:25 AM  By the way, did a swim test too. I did 10x100 on 10 sec rest. I ended up with a total time of 19:57, subtract 90 sec for rest, and it gave me a total swim time of 18:27. That breaks down to roughly 1:45 - 1:50 per 100. Definitely room for improvement.

Not sure I'd count that as a valid swim test due to the rests (no matter how short they are).  You should do the 1000 yds non-stop and then get your average for 100 from that.

I agree. I respect Gale greatly, although I don't agree with the 300 yd test - 30 secs rest is way too much time to be resting. I say 1k, 2k, 3k TT etc - that's how you learn what your real pace is. I have even had swim coaches give the group a 30 minute swim test - see how many yards you can swim in 30 minutes. For most people that is about their 1 mile time or 1.2 mile time and it will give you an accurate test to what they can swim in 30 minutes. There is nothing like time trialing the actual distance you are racing - that is reality. Before important races I will time trial 2k up to 3k in the pool just to see where I am. It sharpens me up mentally and makes me understand the value of pacing.

Run testing: you can run the same loop again under the same conditions. If you run farther in the same time, you have improved. Or you can use the track for the final 20 minutes as well. Either will work, just try to go into the testing at the same point in your program as you are now.

Good luck!

2007-01-22 8:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

Hey Mike-

It probably depends on how you use the test results to guide workouts.   I tend to use Gale's swim workouts too (from the binders) so I think that her test protocol probably works well in that respect.  If I went with a straight 1k TT I'd be a good 8-10sec/100 slower, which is fine but then her threshold workouts become too easy.  Doing 500m at T-pace based on the 3X300 test is much harder than 500m at T-pace based on 1000m test and it feels much more analogous to a 20min tempo run or 2X20 at FTP on the bike.  I totally agree that something like a 1k or 2k TT is a great test to judge progress and simulate race conditions but the 3X300 works better for me to establish a challenging 100m training pace to structure my threshold workouts.  I also do a periodic 1000m TT as a benchmark test.

2007-01-22 10:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
TH3_FRB - 2007-01-22 6:02 PM

Hey Mike-

It probably depends on how you use the test results to guide workouts.   I tend to use Gale's swim workouts too (from the binders) so I think that her test protocol probably works well in that respect.  If I went with a straight 1k TT I'd be a good 8-10sec/100 slower, which is fine but then her threshold workouts become too easy.  Doing 500m at T-pace based on the 3X300 test is much harder than 500m at T-pace based on 1000m test and it feels much more analogous to a 20min tempo run or 2X20 at FTP on the bike.  I totally agree that something like a 1k or 2k TT is a great test to judge progress and simulate race conditions but the 3X300 works better for me to establish a challenging 100m training pace to structure my threshold workouts.  I also do a periodic 1000m TT as a benchmark test.

More importantly I think it depends on how you define threshold. I like to use the definition of threshold being a pace you can hold for 1 hour. I think it's highly unlikely the times you get from a 300 yd swim with REST, would give you an accurate measure of 'threshold'. Now, if that were the case we could do 800-1k repeats on the track for running to establish run threshold and I think that would be closer to LT+. Same thing with the bike, we don't do 3-4' repeats to establish threshold, it just doesn't cut it. I give some sets to my crew that include T-pace (threshold) minus 5 secs - and if they have done an accurate threshold test, they can hit these numbers. If they do a threshold test that gives them a false sense of a pace, they won't be able to hit those times.

Now, if you think the threshold test of a 1k or 2k makes your threshold workouts 'too easy' then in the words of the great Jack Daniels, "if you want to train faster, then race faster first" iow - you have to prove that you can swim that fast in a race, before you approach it in training otherwise you are training too hard, at the wrong pace and at the wrong effort.

I think what many people don't like about 1k, 30 minute and 60 minute TTs is that they are afraid of 'the truth'. People don't want to know how slow they really are - they want to feel like they can swim a few fast 300s or whatever and call themselves fast and they should be swimming their T-pace workouts at X, which they shouldn't be. Reality can be a tough thing to face sometimes.

2007-01-23 10:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing

So you would consider 1000m TT pace to be T-pace?  Can you give me an example of a threshold workout based on that?  Let's say I swim 1:40/100m for a 1000m TT in the pool.  Using that for one of Gales threshold (muscular endurance) workouts would make the intervals relatively easy.  Here's an example:

  • 6X100 @ T-pace -:01 (:15RI)
  • 100 easy
  • 4X100 @ T-pace -:03 (:15RI)
  • 100 easy
  • 4X100 @ T-pace -:04 (:15RI)
  • 2X300 pull
You can see how this wouldn't be particularly challenging for a T-pace based on a continuous 1000m TT.  I'm guessing your intervals would be longer.

 



2007-01-24 7:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Lactate Threshold Testing
TH3_FRB - 2007-01-23 8:21 PM

So you would consider 1000m TT pace to be T-pace?  Can you give me an example of a threshold workout based on that?  Let's say I swim 1:40/100m for a 1000m TT in the pool.  Using that for one of Gales threshold (muscular endurance) workouts would make the intervals relatively easy.  Here's an example:

  • 6X100 @ T-pace -:01 (:15RI)
  • 100 easy
  • 4X100 @ T-pace -:03 (:15RI)
  • 100 easy
  • 4X100 @ T-pace -:04 (:15RI)
  • 2X300 pull
You can see how this wouldn't be particularly challenging for a T-pace based on a continuous 1000m TT.  I'm guessing your intervals would be longer.

 

For me, I have usually been about 1:24 or better on my 1k TT - and in my IM races, I typically swim around 1:00 or 1:25 pace. Given how close those two paces are, I would consider my 1k TT an accurate measure for my 1 hour TT in an IM, yes. If I were to go off of 300s with 30" rest (!) I would be looking at 1:20 or better pace, and that is not even in my zip code for a 1 hour TT. Remember, you don't need to rest in swimming. It's no different than running or biking, the more continuous you make it, the more yards you can put in over the same amount of time.  

Nope, I wouldn't use 100s as threshold work. I hardly ever swim anything less than 300s if I am working on threshold. 100s are good for pacing and speed, when you get the proper rest, but not for threshold work. An example would be 1k TT pace of 15:00 (1:30 pace). So a set would be:

400 warm up
300 at T-Pace, 50 kick, 50 drill - repeat for 1 hour.
100 cool down

Pretty simple stuff from the man himself - Dr Ernie - you heard him talk about this last year in the Springs. He knows his stuff!

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