General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Race wheel rental quandary Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2007-01-25 2:35 PM
in reply to: #667497

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary

And for an added bonus to Denis' advice above, don't over-inflate your tires.  It will hurt rolling resistance.  For clinchers, if they are nylon cased (like the Michelin's or Continental) use 100-110psi.  You should go 110-125psi if you're using cotton or softer cased tries (e.g. Vittoria CX, Veloflex).

If you insist on going tubular, I believe 120-130psi is the right range.



2007-01-25 10:30 PM
in reply to: #668027

User image

Pro
3870
200010005001001001002525
Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary

It's actually not the rolling resistance that is an issue with high pressure.  The problem is that harder tires (higher pressure) don't maintain contact with the road because the bounce over small imperfections rather than absorb them.   When you are not in contact with the ground you are not transferring power to the road...while you still subject to aerodynamic drag.  It's a similar situation to why downhill ski racers want to minimize their time in the air as they come over rolling hills on the course...they are actually faster if they maintain contact with the ground.  It may seem like an inconsequential details but add up all the fractions of a second over the course of 56 or 112 miles and it makes a difference.  It might be a different story if you are riding on perfect roads but I've never seen an entire bike loop on fresh blacktop.

JohnnyKay - 2007-01-25 3:35 PM

And for an added bonus to Denis' advice above, don't over-inflate your tires. It will hurt rolling resistance. For clinchers, if they are nylon cased (like the Michelin's or Continental) use 100-110psi. You should go 110-125psi if you're using cotton or softer cased tries (e.g. Vittoria CX, Veloflex).

If you insist on going tubular, I believe 120-130psi is the right range.

2007-01-26 7:56 AM
in reply to: #668007

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary

dgunthert - 2007-01-25 2:24 PM And I'll say it again: DON'T RENT TUBULARS IF YOU RENT RACE WHEELS 

 However, a high end clincher (Pro Race 2, for example) will generally have a lower RR than a high end tubular.

Dennis, I've seen both sides of this argument on BT and over at ST.  I don't have a clue myself, and I'm not questioning your opinion, but does anyone have a link to an article that gives an objective review of the issue???

I know that I worried a lot prior to IM WI what would happen if I got a flot on the tubulars I was renting.  I carried a glued-up spare under the seat and one in my special needs bag.  I had a guy at the LBS show me how one would change one, but its not the same as doing it under race pressure.  If I had been racing on clincher 404s I wouldn't have worried so much.  Thanks if anyone has an article about this stuff.

2007-01-26 8:19 AM
in reply to: #667497

User image

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
I'm going to disagree with the notion that you should not rent tubulars. For a recent update on the rolling resistance debate, try this:
http://tritalk.podshowcreator.com/
Listen to the most recent show, it's very informative for this discussion. Changing a Tubular can actually be very easy as long as you explain to the shop that you are racing a triathlon and to not use an excessive amount of glue unless you plan on rounding corners at high speed! I think tubulars are the faster choice and that's what I choose to race on (Zipp 404's). My LBS also agrees in the superiority of tubulars over clinchers for race day. I know this is all debatable, but I just wanted to add my $.02. .
2007-01-26 8:38 AM
in reply to: #668692

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary

bryancd - 2007-01-26 8:19 AM

I'm going to disagree with the notion that you should not rent tubulars.

  Why did I just KNOW that someone was going to say this?!?!

Bryan, thanks for the link!

2007-01-26 8:40 AM
in reply to: #668713

User image

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
Birkierunner - 2007-01-26 8:38 AM

bryancd - 2007-01-26 8:19 AM

I'm going to disagree with the notion that you should not rent tubulars.

  Why did I just KNOW that someone was going to say this?!?!

Bryan, thanks for the link!



LOL! Imagine posting that over on SlowTwitch?! Watch out, incoming!!!!!!!!


2007-01-26 8:47 AM
in reply to: #667497

User image

Veteran
185
100252525
Grass Valley
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
I'm interested in the wheel covers.  What are the advantages and disadvantages of this?  Anybody have a favorite brand? This just sounds like a more reasonably priced solution for my racing abilities. 
2007-01-26 8:51 AM
in reply to: #668724

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary

Butchcantswim - 2007-01-26 8:47 AM I'm interested in the wheel covers.   Anybody have a favorite brand?  

Rich Strauss mentions this company quite a bit when it comes to covers:  http://www.wheelbuilder.com/

 

2007-01-26 8:56 AM
in reply to: #668724

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary

Butchcantswim - 2007-01-26 8:47 AM I'm interested in the wheel covers.  What are the advantages and disadvantages of this?  Anybody have a favorite brand? This just sounds like a more reasonably priced solution for my racing abilities. 

Second the wheelbuilder advice above.  Reasonably priced, great service and they'll trim the cover for whatever wheel you want.  The advanatge is it makes any wheel as aerodynamic as a disc at a fraction of the cost.  The disadvantage is you don't get the cool "whoosh" sound of a disc. 

2007-01-26 8:59 AM
in reply to: #668728

User image

Resident Curmudgeon
25290
50005000500050005000100100252525
The Road Back
Gold member
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
Birkierunner - 2007-01-26 8:51 AM

Butchcantswim - 2007-01-26 8:47 AM I'm interested in the wheel covers.   Anybody have a favorite brand?  

Rich Strauss mentions this company quite a bit when it comes to covers:  http://www.wheelbuilder.com/

Doesn't Rich own that company (might explain why he mentions it a lot )?

2007-01-26 9:01 AM
in reply to: #667497

User image

Veteran
185
100252525
Grass Valley
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
Excuse my ignorance here, but if it's really windy out here (SD) would these be a disadvantage at times?  I suppose I could just take them off if I thought it was going to be a windy race.  Thanks for the advice seems like a really good deal. 


2007-01-26 9:06 AM
in reply to: #668742

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
the bear - 2007-01-26 8:59 AM Birkierunner - 2007-01-26 8:51 AM

Butchcantswim - 2007-01-26 8:47 AM I'm interested in the wheel covers.   Anybody have a favorite brand?  

Rich Strauss mentions this company quite a bit when it comes to covers:  http://www.wheelbuilder.com/

 

Doesn't Rich own that company (might explain why he mentions it a lot ;) )?

No, Rich Souris owns it.   I think they do train together though. Last I heard, recommending a friend's business isn't a crime  ;)



Edited by Birkierunner 2007-01-26 9:09 AM
2007-01-26 9:07 AM
in reply to: #668673

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
Birkierunner - 2007-01-26 7:56 AM

Dennis, I've seen both sides of this argument on BT and over at ST.  I don't have a clue myself, and I'm not questioning your opinion, but does anyone have a link to an article that gives an objective review of the issue???

I think there were a couple other studies somewhere, but here's a link I could find with some data:

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html

Pretty much everything I've found (yes, lots originated at least from ST) where someone has tried to test this has come to the same conclusion.  Again, not all clinchers test favorably but a good clincher like the Michelin Pro2 Race combines good RR along with good puncture resistance and makes for an excellent race choice tire.

2007-01-26 9:12 AM
in reply to: #668747

User image

Not a Coach
11473
5000500010001001001001002525
Media, PA
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary

Butchcantswim - 2007-01-26 9:01 AM Excuse my ignorance here, but if it's really windy out here (SD) would these be a disadvantage at times?  I suppose I could just take them off if I thought it was going to be a windy race.  Thanks for the advice seems like a really good deal. 

Windy days create the MOST advantage for a disc.  If it really is so windy that it would compromise your handling (like gale force winds maybe), you could leave it off.  But you should almost always race with it on.

And, to the other discussion above, it's Rich Sawris. I bought a PT wheel with cover from him.  Excellent service and he was always quick to answer my questions in helping select the right wheel for me.

2007-01-26 9:24 AM
in reply to: #668759

User image

Elite
3088
20001000252525
Austin, TX
Gold member
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
JohnnyKay - 2007-01-26 9:07 AM

I think there were a couple other studies somewhere, but here's a link I could find with some data:

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html



Great link there. I'll have to read the whole article to read about how they mounted the tires, but if you look at the results, the top 6 clinchers all beat the very best tubular. The Pro2 Race, which had very good puncture resistance, saved 5 watts over the best tubular.

Update: damn, no information about how the tubies were mounted. That's kind of important.

Edited by dgunthert 2007-01-26 9:31 AM
2007-01-26 10:42 AM
in reply to: #667657

User image

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
KenyonTri - 2007-01-25 12:39 PM

I'm a decent cyclist, but by no means an expert (riding about 3 years, average mph around 20). Would a disc be appropriate for someone of my mediocre ability? Esepecially having never ridden one before?


I found this on the Hed website today:

Q. Is it true that you have to be riding above 20 mph for aero wheels to make a difference?

A. The faster you go, the more power you produce. Efficient use of this power depends on how good your aerodynamics are. The time savings provided by aero wheels are always going to be proportional to the power of the rider. It doesn't matter whether you produce 300 watts or 150 watts. In fact, slower riders may not be going at the same speed as faster ones, but aero wheels actually save them an even greater amount of time over the same distance. The only exception is on hills, where speeds slower than about 14 mph aren't sufficient to compensate for the aero wheel weight disadvantage.

Shane


2007-01-26 11:00 AM
in reply to: #668768

User image

Extreme Veteran
537
50025
Davidson, NC
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary

JohnnyKay - 2007-01-26 10:12 AM

Windy days create the MOST advantage for a disc. If it really is so windy that it would compromise your handling (like gale force winds maybe), you could leave it off. But you should almost always race with it on.

This came up in a Q&A with Paula Newby Fraser & Roch Fry before IMFL and that was EXACTLY what PNF had to say.  

And it was windy, and I rode with a disc and I was still butt dragging slow, but anyway.... 

2007-01-26 11:47 AM
in reply to: #668896

User image

Master
2299
2000100100252525
New York
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
gsmacleod - 2007-01-26 10:42 AM

KenyonTri - 2007-01-25 12:39 PM

I'm a decent cyclist, but by no means an expert (riding about 3 years, average mph around 20). Would a disc be appropriate for someone of my mediocre ability? Esepecially having never ridden one before?


I found this on the Hed website today:

Q. Is it true that you have to be riding above 20 mph for aero wheels to make a difference?

A. The faster you go, the more power you produce. Efficient use of this power depends on how good your aerodynamics are. The time savings provided by aero wheels are always going to be proportional to the power of the rider. It doesn't matter whether you produce 300 watts or 150 watts. In fact, slower riders may not be going at the same speed as faster ones, but aero wheels actually save them an even greater amount of time over the same distance. The only exception is on hills, where speeds slower than about 14 mph aren't sufficient to compensate for the aero wheel weight disadvantage.

Shane


I know that even despite my less than stelllar average speed I will still stand to benefit from switching to an aero setup. I was wondering, though, whether someone of my ability would be suited to a rear disc?
2007-01-26 1:11 PM
in reply to: #669021

User image

Resident Curmudgeon
25290
50005000500050005000100100252525
The Road Back
Gold member
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary

KenyonTri - 2007-01-26 11:47 AM  I know that even despite my less than stelllar average speed I will still stand to benefit from switching to an aero setup. I was wondering, though, whether someone of my ability would be suited to a rear disc?

Why would you not think so?

2007-01-26 1:22 PM
in reply to: #667497

User image

Master
2299
2000100100252525
New York
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
No particular reason - I was hoping there wouldn't be any sort of limiting factors, but figured I'd throw it out there in case a disc was better suited to a very strong & experienced rider.
2007-01-26 11:13 PM
in reply to: #667497

User image

Mesa
Subject: RE: Race wheel rental quandary
I believe that Kevin @ Tribe multisport ( http://www.tribemultisport.com) rents his XLAB race wheels (tri spoke front and disc rear) for $50.00

I have a Xlab Tri Spoke rear wheel and like it a lot, however I have not ridden on a Zipp, etc.



As for the wheel cover question, I had one on my rear wheel before I bought the Xlab. At the least, you get serious looks from others and take cool photos with a wheel cover. I honestly am not sure if there was much of a difference for me. It does make airing up your rear wheel a pain.


New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Race wheel rental quandary Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2