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How do you bike 112 miles? (Page 2)
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 2007-03-27 9:15 AM in reply to: #737379 |
Master  2406   Bellevue, WA |  Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles?run4yrlif - 2007-03-26 12:29 PM Rogillio - 2007-03-26 2:58 PM I just came from Wal-mart where I bought some 'fuel'. Here is my plan for next Saturday: One Cliff Bar per hour: 250 calories One gel per hour: 110 calories Two bottles of Gatorade over 5 hrs: 300/5 = 60 calories/hr Total: 420 calories per hour. I'll also bring my camelback - not sure how much it hold but I'm guessing 1/2 gallon or so. I might also bring a banana. So how does this sound?
~Mike It sounds much, much better. But truthfully, being a big guy you're going to be burning calories at such a high rate that the more you can eat the better. It'll be very difficult to eat too much. That sounds a little high on the Cliff Bars (solid foods are harder to digest) and low on liquids, depending on what you put in the Camelback. If it's just water, you're not getting enough electrolyte replenishment. When I go for a century training ride (6 hour pace), I'll eat 2 or 3 Cliff Bars total, 4 bottles of Gatorade Extreme (not the regular Gatorade - too high in sugar, too low in sodium), and 3 Gu gel packs. BTW, I carry two bottles and buy two more on the ride. I know which stores sell it along my usual routes. If I trained in warm weather, I'd go for 6 bottles (one an hour). My pre-ride meal (an hour before the ride) will be a cup of coffee, two slices of seven grain wheat toast, a nonfat yogurt, and a banana. I usually don't eat anything for the first hour of the ride. A few more things to consider: You have to be careful to exceed the amount of food your stomach can process. Check out this article: http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=10767&sidebar=21&category=... (one of many on the subject) By the numbers in that article, you're burning say 1200 calories per hour fast cycling. Your stomache may process only 400 calories per hour, or has high as 800. You need to figure out which end of the spectrum you personally fall, and what kind of food your stomach tolerates best on the bike. If you dump more food in that your stomach can process, then you'll bloat, or you'll get nauseous or gassy, or at the extreme your stomach will "shutdown" - nothing will empty, and you'll eventually need to vomit. Obviously, you don't want to overeat. Second, what kind of fuel is your body burning to make up the 600-800 calorie deficit you've created? If you're going at low intensity (for you, this is relative) then you're burning fat and just about everyone has enough of that. If you're going at a high intensity, then you're burning a lot of glycogen and you need to replenish that with gels, carb drinks, etc. There comes a pace where you're burning more glycogen than you can replenish, and when it's gone, it's gone - you bonk. Ironman race pace is about finding the right pace where all that is in balance. Third, you should consider training your body to do more with less - conserve glycogen and burn fat. I generally follow an approach similar to the one below (from http://www.cruciblefitness.com/etips/race-day-nutrition.htm)... During your training, do short rides and runs (less than 2 hours) on an empty stomach. Assuming you have 2000 calories stored as glycogen, you should enough to sustain you through 2-2.5 hours of high intensity exercise. By training on an empty stomach, you train your body to conserve glycogen and burn more fat, since it eventually learns that you ain't gonna feed it. Do your long stuff on a full stomach, especially long runs. By training with a full stomach, you get used to the feeling of riding/running with a lot of stuff in your gut. You will also learn how to deal with mild cramps and side stitches. [I would point out the importance of replenishing the glycogen stores shortly after working out. By working out on an empty stomach for shorter distances you are, in a way, carbo-loading daily and keeping the glycogen stores optimal for your longer workouts. This is because the glycogen is depleted to a level where you are ready to bonk and when exercise ceases the enzyme (glycogen synthetase) necessary to store glycogen is revved up resulting in supranormal glycogen levels in the muscle. This enzyme level drops off after about four hours, so it's important to eat during that time window. As an aside (and a not very important one since fructose is in so many drinks and bars) is that a small amount of fructose post exercise aids in topping off liver glycogen levels. – Jeff Roberts, M.D.] If you do ride on an empty stomach, then make sure to have a gel pack or two along. You might miscalculate and bonk, then need some quick glucose. It's happened once or twice to me. |
| 2007-03-27 9:23 AM in reply to: #735527 |
Master 2299 New York | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? From my experience, I'd tend to agree with Bruce. For me a Clif Bar + gel per hour would shut me down...I alternate gel with 1/2 a Clif bar every 45 minutes, with 16-18oz GE + 10-16oz H20/hr on my long rides. Being a bigger guy, though, your caloric needs will be higher than my own...but if I were in your shoes I'd try to up calorie absorption through liquids, and maybe ease off a bit on the solid/semi-solid foods. |
| 2007-03-27 10:03 AM in reply to: #735527 |
Champion 4902 Ottawa, Ontario | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? First off, train for that 112 mile distance with adequate mileage, that much is obvious. Next, plan your bike segment by studying the course and the finding out what drinks and nutrition will be handed out. For example the IM I will be doing in September is comprised of 12 loops at the end of which there is a feed station. I actually stop and ask for whatever nutrition I want at that moment. Approximately 1/2 mile later there are people handing out water and gatorade. I toss out the previous bottles and take one of each. Besides this, plan your pacing (as previously posted by another BT'er) for that distance:
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| 2007-03-27 10:20 AM in reply to: #738364 |
Pro 3705 Vestavia Hills | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? One thing not really discussed yet is that while you maybe able to sustain 17 mph for a prolonged period of time, it is quite possible that it is above your lactate threshold ... meaning that you are burning your limited glycogen stores by going anaerobic instead of aerobic. If you ride below your aerobic threshold, then you utilize a mixture of fat cells and glycogen - above your AeT then it is something like 90% glycogen. For further information in layman's terms on the physiological effects of lactate threshold on performance see the interview of Neal Henderson on the December 27th podcast of simplystu.com. I know that for some HR training is akin to Haitian voodoo - but there is a reason that the Soviets dominated the summer olympics during the 1970's (other than the steriod allegations Bruce: excellent post ... what a bevy of useful information. Thanks for taking the time to post it. brucemorgan - 2007-03-27 10:15 AM run4yrlif - 2007-03-26 12:29 PM That sounds a little high on the Cliff Bars (solid foods are harder to digest) and low on liquids, depending on what you put in the Camelback. If it's just water, you're not getting enough electrolyte replenishment. When I go for a century training ride (6 hour pace), I'll eat 2 or 3 Cliff Bars total, 4 bottles of Gatorade Extreme (not the regular Gatorade - too high in sugar, too low in sodium), and 3 Gu gel packs. BTW, I carry two bottles and buy two more on the ride. I know which stores sell it along my usual routes. If I trained in warm weather, I'd go for 6 bottles (one an hour). My pre-ride meal (an hour before the ride) will be a cup of coffee, two slices of seven grain wheat toast, a nonfat yogurt, and a banana. I usually don't eat anything for the first hour of the ride. A few more things to consider: You have to be careful to exceed the amount of food your stomach can process. Check out this article: http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=10767&sidebar=21&c... (one of many on the subject) By the numbers in that article, you're burning say 1200 calories per hour fast cycling. Your stomache may process only 400 calories per hour, or has high as 800. You need to figure out which end of the spectrum you personally fall, and what kind of food your stomach tolerates best on the bike. If you dump more food in that your stomach can process, then you'll bloat, or you'll get nauseous or gassy, or at the extreme your stomach will "shutdown" - nothing will empty, and you'll eventually need to vomit. Obviously, you don't want to overeat. Second, what kind of fuel is your body burning to make up the 600-800 calorie deficit you've created? If you're going at low intensity (for you, this is relative) then you're burning fat and just about everyone has enough of that. If you're going at a high intensity, then you're burning a lot of glycogen and you need to replenish that with gels, carb drinks, etc. There comes a pace where you're burning more glycogen than you can replenish, and when it's gone, it's gone - you bonk. Ironman race pace is about finding the right pace where all that is in balance. Third, you should consider training your body to do more with less - conserve glycogen and burn fat. I generally follow an approach similar to the one below (from http://www.cruciblefitness.com/etips/race-day-nutrition.htm)... During your training, do short rides and runs (less than 2 hours) on an empty stomach. Assuming you have 2000 calories stored as glycogen, you should enough to sustain you through 2-2.5 hours of high intensity exercise. By training on an empty stomach, you train your body to conserve glycogen and burn more fat, since it eventually learns that you ain't gonna feed it. Do your long stuff on a full stomach, especially long runs. By training with a full stomach, you get used to the feeling of riding/running with a lot of stuff in your gut. You will also learn how to deal with mild cramps and side stitches. [I would point out the importance of replenishing the glycogen stores shortly after working out. By working out on an empty stomach for shorter distances you are, in a way, carbo-loading daily and keeping the glycogen stores optimal for your longer workouts. This is because the glycogen is depleted to a level where you are ready to bonk and when exercise ceases the enzyme (glycogen synthetase) necessary to store glycogen is revved up resulting in supranormal glycogen levels in the muscle. This enzyme level drops off after about four hours, so it's important to eat during that time window. As an aside (and a not very important one since fructose is in so many drinks and bars) is that a small amount of fructose post exercise aids in topping off liver glycogen levels. – Jeff Roberts, M.D.] If you do ride on an empty stomach, then make sure to have a gel pack or two along. You might miscalculate and bonk, then need some quick glucose. It's happened once or twice to me.Rogillio - 2007-03-26 2:58 PM I just came from Wal-mart where I bought some 'fuel'. Here is my plan for next Saturday: One Cliff Bar per hour: 250 calories One gel per hour: 110 calories Two bottles of Gatorade over 5 hrs: 300/5 = 60 calories/hr Total: 420 calories per hour. I'll also bring my camelback - not sure how much it hold but I'm guessing 1/2 gallon or so. I might also bring a banana. So how does this sound?
~Mike It sounds much, much better. But truthfully, being a big guy you're going to be burning calories at such a high rate that the more you can eat the better. It'll be very difficult to eat too much. |
| 2007-03-27 10:26 AM in reply to: #735527 |
Member 23 | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Anyone tried the powebars 'tour de france', I've gotten hold of a few of them and tried them on short cycles, just wandering if anyone had any digestion issues with them when going harder or longer. Hoping to do 5/6 hours this week, as a start should i aim for a bottle and a bar an hour. I think the bars are around 240. I think that would be approximately 400 cals. I might bring 2 bananas as well to break it up. Any advice/suggestions. I'm in Ireland so don't have great access to the same variety as some of you. Gerrymc |
| 2007-03-27 10:48 AM in reply to: #737504 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Its tough to carry all the nutrition you need, I find that by pumping up the liguids I do better. There is a product called CarbPro. You put two scoops in your water and gatorade and it adds 200 calories to each bottle. This way your drinking what you normally do, but your getting additional calories. Since your a bigger guy; you need to understand your sweat rate. IMLOO could be hot as hell. I would experiment with thermolytes, Lava tablets, etc. I ate these thinks like they were candy during IMCDA last year and it save me. I never cramped, not once and it was a 90 degree day. I popped at 4-6 per hour during the race. |
| 2007-03-27 1:20 PM in reply to: #735527 |
Master 1978 Chelmsford, Massachusetts | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? I won't say much here, cuz I'm not totally experienced but I'm at least a "case in point" to this question. A few months ago (ok...even a week ago) I was nervous about riding the IM bike at Arizona. This past Sunday I went for my first EVER century ride. Before January, my longest ride was 62 miles and it nearly killed me. But I was determined (since IMAZ is now less than three weeks away) to get that mileage up. So I rode 40 miles, then 50 miles the next weekend, then 65 (felt good), then 83 (still felt good) and finally attempted that century two days ago. I was surprised to feel good...almost GREAT...after doing 100 miles, simply because every week I just added miles to my ride. That, along with my nutrition plan, made all the difference. In January I just couldn't fathom riding 112, now I feel like I can do it tomorrow. My nutrition plan is quite unorthodox, but it works really well for me. Gatorade, water, gels, Skittles, and PBJ's. I did my century in 5:40. I'm pretty happy with that being that between October and January I rode about 200 miles total, and had to build up to this distance in two months. |
| 2007-03-27 5:22 PM in reply to: #738907 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? I found the century rides very doable in training, but everyone remember you have to swim 2.4 miles before you ride. Plus you never know what will happen during the ride; hot and humid conditions, mechancial problems. My big point is IM is a long day and you never know what can happen. One must NAIL there nutrition. |
| 2007-03-28 10:03 AM in reply to: #739327 |
Master 1978 Chelmsford, Massachusetts | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Blueraider_Mike - 2007-03-27 6:22 PM I found the century rides very doable in training, but everyone remember you have to swim 2.4 miles before you ride. Plus you never know what will happen during the ride; hot and humid conditions, mechancial problems. My big point is IM is a long day and you never know what can happen. One must NAIL their nutrition. I must agree wholeheartedly! My nutrition was my biggest problem at my HIM as I almost fell off my bike at mile 51 and it was because I drank too much water and not enough calories. |
| 2007-03-29 12:31 AM in reply to: #735527 |
Member 23 Hubert | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? I do double century rides in my training, and what i have found that works best for me is NAKED JUICE...one every 50 miles or so. One or two bananas every 100 miles, these are my monster monkey food, they work very well for me. I suppliment both water and cytomax durring the whole ride. And of course a gel about every hour as well. And last and most important just like many have mentioned. Saddle time, over and over, with good quality rest. If you can do 100 miles you can do 300 with not a whole lot more training. If its dry and hot, then throw some salt tabs in there every so often. I have found that if i have fueled well, and did not go out to fast, that my last 25 miles of a double can be my strongest and fastest. You will find 112 coming up pretty soon, and pretty easy. hang in there. |
| 2007-03-31 4:16 AM in reply to: #735527 |
Veteran 117 | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Mike You described a darn fine early season performance. You will be in great shape by IMKY. Lots of obvious as well as insightful feedback on your post so far - but I'll share the secret that all IMers know. Riding 112 is like getting a spanking. It can be pretty unpleasant until you REALLY start getting smacked - then it turns to pure pleasure. Makes it kinda hard to get off that bike to run a marathon.  Good luck with the training. |
| 2007-03-31 5:39 AM in reply to: #743829 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Billcobit nailed what I was trying to say. I found Century rides pretty easy in training; but I was shocked at how much harder the IM ride was; I finished about 50 minutes slower than the average training pace that I rode those century rides. So I am going to try to ride more miles in this 20 week training cycle - WHICH STARTS APRIL 9TH FOR ME! |
| 2007-03-31 9:33 AM in reply to: #735527 |
| Member 47 | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? What are Lava tabs and where can I get salt tablets? |
| 2007-03-31 12:53 PM in reply to: #743832 |
Champion 10154 Alabama | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Blueraider_Mike - 2007-03-31 5:39 AM Billcobit nailed what I was trying to say. I found Century rides pretty easy in training; but I was shocked at how much harder the IM ride was; I finished about 50 minutes slower than the average training pace that I rode those century rides. So I am going to try to ride more miles in this 20 week training cycle - WHICH STARTS APRIL 9TH FOR ME!
Am I missing something here? It took you 50 minutes longer to bike 112 miles than it did to bike 100 miles? So the 12 miles in 50 minutes comes to 14.4 mph. Considering this is the last 12 miles, that doesn't sound too bad to me. ~Mike |
| 2007-04-05 1:13 AM in reply to: #735527 |
Extreme Veteran 471 Maryland | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Keeping it simple. Cramps in the legs? Eat at least two bananas a day -- one in morning, one during the day. It cured my leg cramping. CP2K |
| 2007-04-06 5:32 PM in reply to: #735527 |
Extreme Veteran 617 Covington (New Orleans), La | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Mike - Don't feel like you have to do 112 miles before IM. I think my longest was about 107, and same for Rob. You could probably get by with a bit less. To answer your question, I didn't see most people stop on the bike course unless they were having an equipment problem or were not feeling well. Rob and I stopped about 4 times to use the port-o-potties. Some people went "on the fly" but I just couldn't bring myself to do this. We probably lost about 15 minutes from the 4 stops, but it was worth it not to have to "go" on ourselves and the brief stretching out off the bike seemed to help. But those were the only "stops" if you can call them that. We were rushing each time. You don't really even need to stop to refuel. If you make up a concentrated bottle of perpetuem, or whatever you're using, and mark off how much to pour in an aero bottle each hour you'll be okay just squirting that in and filling up with water from the aid stations. But don't try this for the first time on race day. Practice with a concentrated bottle in your training rides if that is what you plan to do. It worked out really well for us. You just grab some water as you slow down at an aid station, squirt it in with some concentrated mix, and you're good to go. No iPods or any headphones allowed. My guess with cramping is that you need to add in Endurolytes or something along those lines. Rob would take 2 - 3 per hour and I had to take at least 1 per hour to avoid cramping - even with the sodium and electrolytes, etc. that come in Perpetuem or Heed. We still had to add extra. Sounds like you also need to be taking in more water. Not sure how long your 75 mile ride was but rough estimate based on 17 mph puts it at about 4 hours or more. I think a general guide is one water bottle per hour of training. So you probably had less than half what you needed from a hydration standpoint. Sounds like you know what you need to adjust and it's great that you are getting all of these issues worked out in training. You're going to do great!
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| 2007-04-07 1:11 PM in reply to: #743961 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Rogillio, What I meant to say is my bike split was about 50 minutes slower that I had planned for the 112, and the average pace was slower than my long training rides. I was cautious, it was hot and I didn't want to flame out, so stayed relaxed and kept spinning. The bad news, my bike split was bad, the good news, I had a good marathon and felt great at the finish - never suffered on the run. Based on my limited experience, I think most go to fast on the bike. Study IM splits. You will see 6:15 bike splits with 5:30 marathon splits. Stuff I have read says your run should take about 2 hours less than your bike; so a 7 hour bike and a 5 hour run is a nice even paced race. In my case I ended up with a 7:20 bike and a 4:37 run. I lost about 15-20 minutes on bathroom breaks, etc. Tried to pee on the bike but just couldn't. And had one flat. This year, I would like about a 6:30 bike split with a 4:30 run. |
| 2007-04-07 2:12 PM in reply to: #752409 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Blueraider_Mike - 2007-04-07 11:11 AM Based on my limited experience, I think most go to fast on the bike. Study IM splits. You will see 6:15 bike splits with 5:30 marathon splits. Stuff I have read says your run should take about 2 hours less than your bike; so a 7 hour bike and a 5 hour run is a nice even paced race. Your example says an "even paced race" of 12 hours (7+5) is slower (6:15+5:30) is 11:45. I doubt if that's what you really meant. As a general observation I agree with you. I think there are a couple main causes. First cycling is a lot more fun and social than running so people just do it more than swimming or running. And second I think there's such a focus on the overall time, that people focus on where they think it matters most: on the bike. So they hammer the bike then suffer on the run. I read about it a lot and my triathlon coach warns against it. She wants balanced training and balanced race plans. Personally, I want to be a solid all around triathlete so that means I need to focus more on swimming. And I don't have a time goal for IMAZ next weekend, I have a race plan for each leg and my goal is to race my plan. |
| 2007-04-07 6:57 PM in reply to: #752444 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Bruce, You and I are on the same page. In my example - if you can bike a 6:15, you ought to be able to run a 4:15. The 7+5 was just an example. I found the run in the race to be much more social; the bike was a little lonely. Good luck at IMAZ!!! Follow your plan, be ready for anything and just keep on moving. The race is the reward. |
| 2007-04-07 9:06 PM in reply to: #752593 |
Master 1661 Newbury Park, CA | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? Blueraider_Mike - 2007-04-07 3:57 PM Bruce, You and I are on the same page. In my example - if you can bike a 6:15, you ought to be able to run a 4:15. The 7+5 was just an example. QUOTE] What if you are a terrible runner and just can't run 2 hours faster than your bike split even for a stand alone marathon? How much slower than a stand alone marathon is "allowable" in IM? |
| 2007-04-07 9:53 PM in reply to: #752670 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? I think the "2 hour" thing we are talking about is a guideline about where to focus your training efforts and how to pace your race. It's not a IM rule of any kind. If you hammer the bike and then have a slow marathon (within 2 hours of your bike split), slow down the bike next time and use the effort saved to speed up the run. If you just can't run that fast - even standalone - then so it goes. You might consider focusing a lot of effort on the run. Even taking a year off from triathlon to just run marathons. That's what I did to become a better runner. |
| 2007-04-08 8:11 AM in reply to: #752689 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? The reason why most people don't run as fast (my opinion) is that: 1. They don't run enough 2. Running more is harder - easier for most to ride long than run long even though a long ride takes 5-6 hours; a long run only take 2-3 hours. 3. Most of us are too heavy (me too, I need to lose 10 pounds) 4. Running too much for where you are increases chance for injury. I just don't understand how people that are great bikers, that put in 6 hours bike splits are running 5:30 marathons. The answer is not that they are slow runners in an IM sense. If you can shuffle every mile and walk the aid stations; you will break 5 hours on the marathon. Heck, but what do I know - maybe I am just a slow biker,  |
| 2007-04-08 4:44 PM in reply to: #752689 |
Master 1661 Newbury Park, CA | Subject: RE: How do you bike 112 miles? brucemorgan - 2007-04-07 6:53 PM You might consider focusing a lot of effort on the run. Even taking a year off from triathlon to just run marathons. That's what I did to become a better runner. That seems to be in my future. It's weird - a 6 hour bike split seems easy but a 5 hour run seems impossible. |
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