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2007-05-08 1:15 PM

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Subject: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight
From The New York Times:

Genes Take Charge, and Diets Fall by the Wayside

By Gina Kolata

It was 1959. Jules Hirsch, a research physician at Rockefeller University, had gotten curious about weight loss in the obese. He was about to start a simple experiment that would change forever the way scientists think about fat.

Obese people, he knew, had huge fat cells, stuffed with glistening yellow fat. What happened to those cells when people lost weight, he wondered. Did they shrink or did they go away? He decided to find out.

It seemed straightforward. Dr. Hirsch found eight people who had been fat since childhood or adolescence and who agreed to live at the Rockefeller University Hospital for eight months while scientists would control their diets, make them lose weight and then examine their fat cells.

The study was rigorous and demanding. It began with an agonizing four weeks of a maintenance diet that assessed the subjects’ metabolism and caloric needs. Then the diet began. The only food permitted was a liquid formula providing 600 calories a day, a regimen that guaranteed they would lose weight. Finally, the subjects spent another four weeks on a diet that maintained them at their new weights, 100 pounds lower than their initial weights, on average.

Dr. Hirsch answered his original question — the subjects’ fat cells had shrunk and were now normal in size. And everyone, including Dr. Hirsch, assumed that the subjects would leave the hospital permanently thinner.

That did not happen. Instead, Dr. Hirsch says, “they all regained.” He was horrified. The study subjects certainly wanted to be thin, so what went wrong? Maybe, he thought, they had some deep-seated psychological need to be fat.

So Dr. Hirsch and his colleagues, including Dr. Rudolph L. Leibel, who is now at Columbia University, repeated the experiment and repeated it again. Every time the result was the same. The weight, so painstakingly lost, came right back. But since this was a research study, the investigators were also measuring metabolic changes, psychiatric conditions, body temperature and pulse. And that led them to a surprising conclusion: fat people who lost large amounts of weight might look like someone who was never fat, but they were very different. In fact, by every metabolic measurement, they seemed like people who were starving.

Before the diet began, the fat subjects’ metabolism was normal — the number of calories burned per square meter of body surface was no different from that of people who had never been fat. But when they lost weight, they were burning as much as 24 percent fewer calories per square meter of their surface area than the calories consumed by those who were naturally thin.

The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged.

The Rockefeller researchers explained their observations in one of their papers: “It is entirely possible that weight reduction, instead of resulting in a normal state for obese patients, results in an abnormal state resembling that of starved nonobese individuals.”

Eventually, more than 50 people lived at the hospital and lost weight, and every one had physical and psychological signs of starvation. There were a very few who did not get fat again, but they made staying thin their life’s work, becoming Weight Watchers lecturers, for example, and, always, counting calories and maintaining themselves in a permanent state of starvation.

“Did those who stayed thin simply have more willpower?” Dr. Hirsch asked. “In a funny way, they did.”

One way to interpret Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Leibel’s studies would be to propose that once a person got fat, the body would adjust, making it hopeless to lose weight and keep it off. The issue was important, because if getting fat was the problem, there might be a solution to the obesity epidemic: convince people that any weight gain was a step toward an irreversible condition that they most definitely did not want to have.

But another group of studies showed that that hypothesis, too, was wrong.

It began with studies that were the inspiration of Dr. Ethan Sims at the University of Vermont, who asked what would happen if thin people who had never had a weight problem deliberately got fat.

His subjects were prisoners at a nearby state prison who volunteered to gain weight. With great difficulty, they succeeded, increasing their weight by 20 percent to 25 percent. But it took them four to six months, eating as much as they could every day. Some consumed 10,000 calories a day, an amount so incredible that it would be hard to believe, were it not for the fact that there were attendants present at each meal who dutifully recorded everything the men ate.

Once the men were fat, their metabolisms increased by 50 percent. They needed more than 2,700 calories per square meter of their body surface to stay fat but needed just 1,800 calories per square meter to maintain their normal weight.

When the study ended, the prisoners had no trouble losing weight. Within months, they were back to normal and effortlessly stayed there.

The implications were clear. There is a reason that fat people cannot stay thin after they diet and that thin people cannot stay fat when they force themselves to gain weight. The body’s metabolism speeds up or slows down to keep weight within a narrow range. Gain weight and the metabolism can as much as double; lose weight and it can slow to half its original speed.

That, of course, was contrary to what every scientist had thought, and Dr. Sims knew it, as did Dr. Hirsch.

The message never really got out to the nation’s dieters, but a few research scientists were intrigued and asked the next question about body weight: Is body weight inherited, or is obesity more of an inadvertent, almost unconscious response to a society where food is cheap, abundant and tempting? An extra 100 calories a day will pile on 10 pounds in a year, public health messages often say. In five years, that is 50 pounds.

The assumption was that environment determined weight, but Dr. Albert Stunkard of the University of Pennsylvania wondered if that was true and, if so, to what extent. It was the early 1980s, long before obesity became what one social scientist called a moral panic, but a time when those questions of nature versus nurture were very much on Dr. Stunkard’s mind.

He found the perfect tool for investigating the nature-nurture question — a Danish registry of adoptees developed to understand whether schizophrenia was inherited. It included meticulous medical records of every Danish adoption between 1927 and 1947, including the names of the adoptees’ biological parents, and the heights and weights of the adoptees, their biological parents and their adoptive parents.

Dr. Stunkard ended up with 540 adults whose average age was 40. They had been adopted when they were very young — 55 percent had been adopted in the first month of life and 90 percent were adopted in the first year of life. His conclusions, published in The New England Journal of Medicine in 1986, were unequivocal. The adoptees were as fat as their biological parents, and how fat they were had no relation to how fat their adoptive parents were.

The scientists summarized it in their paper: “The two major findings of this study were that there was a clear relation between the body-mass index of biologic parents and the weight class of adoptees, suggesting that genetic influences are important determinants of body fatness; and that there was no relation between the body-mass index of adoptive parents and the weight class of adoptees, suggesting that childhood family environment alone has little or no effect.”

In other words, being fat was an inherited condition.

Dr. Stunkard also pointed out the implications: “Current efforts to prevent obesity are directed toward all children (and their parents) almost indiscriminately. Yet if family environment alone has no role in obesity, efforts now directed toward persons with little genetic risk of the disorder could be refocused on the smaller number who are more vulnerable. Such persons can already be identified with some assurance: 80 percent of the offspring of two obese parents become obese, as compared with no more than 14 percent of the offspring of two parents of normal weight.”

A few years later, in 1990, Dr. Stunkard published another study in The New England Journal of Medicine, using another classic method of geneticists: investigating twins. This time, he used the Swedish Twin Registry, studying its 93 pairs of identical twins who were reared apart, 154 pairs of identical twins who were reared together, 218 pairs of fraternal twins who were reared apart, and 208 pairs of fraternal twins who were reared together.

The identical twins had nearly identical body mass indexes, whether they had been reared apart or together. There was more variation in the body mass indexes of the fraternal twins, who, like any siblings, share some, but not all, genes.

The researchers concluded that 70 percent of the variation in peoples’ weights may be accounted for by inheritance, a figure that means that weight is more strongly inherited than nearly any other condition, including mental illness, breast cancer or heart disease.

The results did not mean that people are completely helpless to control their weight, Dr. Stunkard said. But, he said, it did mean that those who tend to be fat will have to constantly battle their genetic inheritance if they want to reach and maintain a significantly lower weight.

The findings also provided evidence for a phenomenon that scientists like Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Leibel were certain was true — each person has a comfortable weight range to which the body gravitates. The range might span 10 or 20 pounds: someone might be able to weigh 120 to 140 pounds without too much effort. Going much above or much below the natural weight range is difficult, however; the body resists by increasing or decreasing the appetite and changing the metabolism to push the weight back to the range it seeks.

The message is so at odds with the popular conception of weight loss — the mantra that all a person has to do is eat less and exercise more — that Dr. Jeffrey Friedman, an obesity researcher at the Rockefeller University, tried to come up with an analogy that would convey what science has found about the powerful biological controls over body weight.

He published it in the journal Science in 2000 and still cites it:

“Those who doubt the power of basic drives, however, might note that although one can hold one’s breath, this conscious act is soon overcome by the compulsion to breathe,” Dr. Friedman wrote. “The feeling of hunger is intense and, if not as potent as the drive to breathe, is probably no less powerful than the drive to drink when one is thirsty. This is the feeling the obese must resist after they have lost a significant amount of weight.”

This is an excerpt from Gina Kolata’s new book, “Rethinking Thin: The New Science of Weight Loss — and the Myths and Realities of Dieting” (Farrar, Straus & Giroux).


2007-05-08 8:21 PM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight

Offthegrid - 2007-05-08 11:15 AM From The New York Times:

The only food permitted was a liquid formula providing 600 calories a day, a regimen that guaranteed they would lose weight. Finally, the subjects spent another four weeks on a diet that maintained them at their new weights, 100 pounds lower than their initial weights, on average. Dr. Hirsch answered his original question — the subjects’ fat cells had shrunk and were now normal in size. And everyone, including Dr. Hirsch, assumed that the subjects would leave the hospital permanently thinner. That did not happen. Instead, Dr. Hirsch says, “they all regained.” He was horrified. The study subjects certainly wanted to be thin, so what went wrong? Maybe, he thought, they had some deep-seated psychological need to be fat. So Dr. Hirsch and his colleagues, including Dr. Rudolph L. Leibel, who is now at Columbia University, repeated the experiment and repeated it again. Every time the result was the same. The weight, so painstakingly lost, came right back. But since this was a research study, the investigators were also measuring metabolic changes, psychiatric conditions, body temperature and pulse. And that led them to a surprising conclusion: fat people who lost large amounts of weight might look like someone who was never fat, but they were very different. In fact, by every metabolic measurement, they seemed like people who were starving. Before the diet began, the fat subjects’ metabolism was normal — the number of calories burned per square meter of body surface was no different from that of people who had never been fat. But when they lost weight, they were burning as much as 24 percent fewer calories per square meter of their surface area than the calories consumed by those who were naturally thin. The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged.

You know what - duh.

You take ANYBODY and put them on a "liquid 600 calorie a day" diet for enough time to lose 100 pounds and, guess what.  You ARE starving them - no matter what weight they started at.

So - hey - people you starve act like - starved people. 

There's also a couple of studies that've been done on how the dieting method we use works on NORMAL weight people - and guess what - they end up doing the bingeing, overeating, weird stuff that most dieters have experienced at least part of the time.

It would have been MORE of a control study to take the obese people and a set of more normal weight people - put them through the same regimen and see what happened.  Instead of the prisoners trying to snork out - more interesting to limit their calories, tell them they couldn't eat as much as they wanted to and see if the psychological response was the same the the more obese individuals.  I would bet it would have been, and that ALSO after the dieting restrictions were lifted the normal weight people would have gained weight and STAYED at the new higher weight.

I do believe that genetics play a role, but my stronger belief is that the more you "diet" and try to deny yourself/starve yourself - the more weird your food relationship becomes and the more likely you are to get fat and remain fat.

2007-05-08 10:40 PM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight
I have to agree, the genetics win in the end. At my current 209 I am the runt of the family. My dad was always between 550 and 600 lbs and died of a massive coronary. My mom was 300, and died of NHL the week before I got my diagnosis of the same cancer. All of my grandparents, aunts and cousins are hefty.

As hard as I try, I can never seem to break past the 195-200 pound barrier. I refuse, however, to cave into fad diets and quick fixes. Lifestyle changes that are smart, workable and just plain common sense are what I am after.
2007-05-09 7:56 AM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight
Virtually everyone in my family and extended family is overweight. There is one aunt who is at a proper weight, but only one of her daughters is.

I personally have never been below 190 pounds. I mean, I know theoretically that at some point in my childhood I was, but not since like 5th grade. In college, I got close -- I hit 192 one week. But just could not get below that.

As I'm nearing 210, my weight loss has dramatically slowed. So I can see it is going to take a lot of patience for me.
2007-05-09 8:16 AM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight
I notice that the results are not normalized for lean body mass. In a starvation diet, a lot of lean mass is lost, resulting in a metabolic drop. What a crock.
2007-05-09 11:12 AM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight

I have not read this book, but based on the posted excerpt, I'm not too impressed.  To me, its angle seems analagous to the quiet enlargement of clothing sizes so that someone who wore a size "10" a few years ago now wears a "6".  It sounds like this author has figured out our consumer culture: if you tell people what they want to hear, they will buy what you are selling.

That's not to say that the book doesn't cite published studies (which may or may not be considered "good" science, e.g., no mention of a normal control group), but the message seems neither particularly revolutionary nor particularly helpful.  Some people have a harder time losing weight -- we know that.  If we're determined to lay blame for being overweight, perhaps this book is comforting in that we can now share some of that blame with our parents.  But a really useful book would compile research that might help people struggling to lose weight, rather than simply absolving them.  I can only hope that this book has a section entitled, "Okay, we're fat and it's not entirely our fault.  Now what can we DO about that?"

And there is one thing I just don't understand: if fatness is simply an inevitable result of one's gene pool, why do we now find ourselves fatter than ever before, and growing?



2007-05-09 1:32 PM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight
It doesn't seem like the best run study.  I agree with lots of what was written already.  I'm interested to see if the whole book is like that or if there are other studies in there that are more controlled.  I guess I'll have to try to get it out of the library.
2007-05-11 12:17 PM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight

As someone who has been overweight for years, I find this so interesting and what I've concluded is true. I just have sucky genes as far as weight and I have to work much harder than most to get to a normal weight.

I've lost 90 pounds, and would like to lose another 10-20 more. I try hard, eat really clean mostly over the last 4 years, I work out most weeks 8-12 hours and my weight loss is so incredibly slow..maybe 10 pounds a year. I'll take it, but I see how easily others lose weight and it is frustrating.

Sure some parts of the study may be flawed like the 600 calorie a day diet. But look at the skinny people who ate lots to gain weight and it just came off after the study..it wouldn't for me.

I'd love for someone to study my metabolism as I was not a constant dieter just constantly getting fatter so the idea that frequently dieting slows metabolism doesn't apply to me. I tracked my calories in and out for 6 months and based on what I was doing should have lost 3-5 pounds a month nope, lost 4 pounds in 6 months.

I'm adopted so I guess I can blame my birth parents on my overweight genes. Funny thing is I want to find my birth parents and my adoption agency has located my birth mom about 4-5 years ago after I paid the search fee, but being overweight and some other issues I didn't pursue it at the time. Now that I'm thinner and feel more confident, I want to have contact with her....but my guess is she'll be overweight and probably self conscious about it...how ironic?

2007-05-13 12:16 AM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight
Well, that's a bit disheartening, but not surprising

I sort of came to this conclusion myself after trying to get those six pack abs in high school. Every system I've looked into for getting the abs states that a lot of it has to do with genetics, in addition to exercise and diet. Everyone on my dad's side of the family doesn't exactly have an athlete's body. Come to think of it, neither is anybody on my mom's side.

I've always been a fat kid. Never very muscular. Sure, I could lift hefty amounts of weight, but then my adipose tissue covered up all of the skeletal muscle. I've never been skinny
2007-05-14 2:22 PM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight

my experience seems to lend credance to these studies, since I was about 16 I've always seemed to have a "magic number" for my weight.  Often times I've worked hard to lose weight and then I'd end up back at that same number.  Sometimes, I'd go a few weeks out of my routine and gain 10-12 pounds then w/o even trying or changing habits I'd bounce back to that "magic number".  Sometimes, w/o really trying, maybe stress or busy, I'd lose 10-12 lbs., I'd think cool, I'll just maintain this...then end up back at that "magic number".

I'm trying to do this differently now...not really dieting, just eating healthy and training for tris but in the back of my head I'm very concerned that if I stop being VERY aware then I'll be right back to that weight.

I've always said that it is much harder to maintain weight loss than it is to lose weight...so we'll see what happens this time.

2007-05-19 2:01 PM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight
To offer a bit of a retort (though not completely) to the OP, let me say a few things.

1) People regaining weight after a 600 calorie starvation diet is not suprising. No one can maintain that level of nutrition long-term. Once they return to their self- regulated eating habits (which helped to lead to their obesity in the first place), is it any suprise that they regained their weight? As for the low metabolism, they were STARVING for crying out loud. In starvation states, the body shuts down metabolism to a crawl to try to maintain for as long as possible on what it's got.

2) In the next study presented, just because the thin people lost weight after the study, and the fat people regained weight after the study doesn't necessarily imply that their baseline weight is purely genetic. Nor does the metabolism differences imply such. What it may imply is that once your body gets "set" at a baseline weight, then the body will try to maintain that equilibrium. Perhaps obese people were obese for long enough to "reset" their baseline. No one is sure, but you have to be careful. Correlation does not imply causality.

3) As for the adoption/twins study, I think no one would disagree that certain body types (ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph) may predispose you to certain weight gain habits. Yet I would also say that environment also plays a role. It's most likely a combination of both.

The overall point is that some people see articles like this, and are too quick to play the "poor me" card. "Oh, my parents are overweight, so it's THEIR fault that I'm heavy". Then they "settle" for whatever they can achieve right now, and never push themselves to truly change their lives. Well, maybe you were dealt a bit of a loaded deck, but there are still choices that you can make. Your "weight destiny" is not set, and perhaps your "magic number" is not just written in your DNA, but also in what effort you are willing to put in to change you body for the better. I'm not implying that some people here are wimps, or flaming anyone. These points are generalities only, and as such can fail to describe every situation (as generalities are wont to do).

My big complaint is the "blame game". I am so sick of people shirking their responsibilty by blaming others for their problems. Blame your parents for being fat? Well, maybe if they taught you bad eating habits, but as for the genes, where did your parents get them? They didn't conjure them up in some dark lab, thinking "hey, let's make our kids have weight problems". No, you are just another in a long line who have been "blessed" with a genetic predisposition to obesity. If you realize this and don't change your habits accordingly, whose fault is your obesity then? So you are predisposed to being fat, so what? It's harder for you to lose weight? Sucks for you, but it's still a million times better than people who are genetically prone to cancer, Huntingtons disease, etc.

The most important thing I think for people to remember is that yes, genetics may play a role in someones propensity to obesity, but no ones genes force-feeds them. Think of it like heart disease. Sure, some people have a genetic predisposition to it, but if they smoke, eat buckets of fatty foods, and don't exercise, then can you really say that their heart attack is due to their genes? Not entirely, to be sure. They bear at least some of the responsibility

Look , as a former "fat guy" myself, I realize that it's difficult to lose weight. Some of us (including myself) will never be the "Men's Health" model, and that's OK. We all can at least get to a weight that's healthy by objective standards. Yet only if we stop blaming others for our shortcomings and focus on how to overcome our obstacles towards our common goal.

Oh, and congrats to everyone in this forum for choosing a healthy obsession like triathlon, and changing their lives for the better.

Edited by RJSuperfreaky 2007-05-19 2:19 PM


2007-05-20 12:10 AM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight
^^ I agree completely RJSuperfreaky.

That book sounds like a crock of &*!% to me.
2007-05-22 6:14 AM
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Subject: RE: New book: Why it's so hard for the obese to lose weight

I most certainly have a set point and the folks in my family for the most part don't go up and down in weight a whole lot.  There do seem to be people without a weight set point - those that just keep gaining weight. 

As many have already commented, it is obvious that a 600 calorie diet is going to cause a starvation reaction.  I have a question for those who have slowly lost weight and managed to keep it off:  do you still have any of those starvation type reactions? 

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