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2007-07-05 12:16 PM
in reply to: #872471

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

paTRIck - 2007-07-05 6:26 AM I'd love to see a race where the distances are:

1 mile swim
10 mile bike
4 mile run

or increase it in those increments. I chose those distances because because they each take me about the same amount of time to finish. It would no longer be about "just survive the swim and hammer on the bike."

I understand where the IM distances come from but the Oly to Half IM distance jump makes no sense to me:

Swim: 1 mile to 1.2 miles
Bike: 25 miles to 56 miles
Run: 6 miles to 13 miles

Something's wrong there.

I agree that a big increase in the swim distance as well as a longer run relative to the bike distance would provide better balance and a more competitive event than the typical bike-favoring sprint tri distances do now. Your 1/10/4 mile distance would suit me fine, as they would also take me about the same time to complete.

As to your pointing out how much more the bike and run are proportionally increased as opposed to the meager increase in the swim distance when going from Oly to HIM, well, it certainly amplifies the fact that the swim gets the short end of the stick at any distance. Of course, to have a swim distance other than half the IM distance would make it something other than a HIM. All the more reason to increase the swim in sprint and Oly tri's.

But what about increasing the IM swim distance to 3 or 4 miles? Are the IM distances too traditional to change? Would distances other than 2.4/112/26.2 miles keep such a race from being an "Ironman" race? I certainly expect so.



2007-07-05 12:45 PM
in reply to: #872281

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

A curious fact is that the Around-Oahu Bike Race (112mi) was originally a 2-day event.  So if we really want to get traditional, maybe the IM distance should be

2.4mi swim

56mi bike

26.2mi run

 

In my dreams!!! 

2007-07-05 1:19 PM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

And while we're at it ... we need to change the marathon back to 24.8 miles, because 26.2 is just too much!!

Who cares what some Queen wanted while her country was hosting the Olympics, all marathons don't start in front of the palace and need to end in front of the royal stadium box!  (No kidding ..... that's why it is 26.2 and not the "real" distance that the Greek runner supposedly did which was in the 24's).

Triathlon is the celebration and challenge of doing three sports in succession.  Someone show me in the rules where it says that all three must be equivalent?????

Suck it up fishies, get on your damn bikes and ride and go out and pound the pavement on runs.  If the sinking bricks like me work our azzes off in the water just so that we can get out of it in a reasonable time so that we can crush you in the rest of the race, then you can certainly work just as hard at the sports you suck at.

(All meant in good fun people, so relax!!)



Edited by Daremo 2007-07-05 1:21 PM
2007-07-05 2:14 PM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

According to the article about the history of USAT (and its predecessor organizations) that was in the USAT magazine a few months ago, what we now call the Olympic distance (1500m/40k/10k) was proposed because the time difference between the first and last competitors in each discipline would be approximately equal across the three disciplines.

hey, found the article on their website: http://www.usatriathlon.org/sitecore/content/Misc/USAT25/Leonard_Article_1.aspx

From the article: "Analysis of earlier race results indicated that these distances provided roughly equal time differences between the fastest and slowest competitors in each of the disciplines."

off topic, but another interesting quote from that article:

"In those early triathlons, competitors frequently changed clothing in transition -- out of a bathing suit into bike shorts for example. Nudity was considered a problem, so there were changing tents in transitions. I remember one race where the changing tent for both men and women was the same, but at least the spectators were “protected.” By the mid-1980’s, tri suits had come into fashion, and gradually the change of clothes issue melted away."

 



Edited by ScottoNM 2007-07-05 2:15 PM
2007-07-05 3:42 PM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
While this is an interesting discussion, I agree with an earlier post: It is what it is. I can see the possible benefit in extending the swim in a sprint, but from my discussions about triathlon with non-triathletes the swim is what keeps people from even thinking about trying one. Pretty much everyone knows how to bike and run, but even a 500 M swim can be a daunting proposal for a newbie. So my vote would be to keep the shorter swim for most sprints.

As far as the Oly's, I think a 1500 M swim is about right and since it's an Olympic event I doubt that the Olympic Committe will change it becuase a few guys on BT think they should


And as far as the IM distance, I attended my first IM as a spectator at CDA this year, and it was scary. With this high winds, whitetops and cold water, I doubt that many participants where thinking "Man, that swim was way too short!" My plans have me doing IM CDA in 2009. Please, please, don't make that IM swim any longer!!


Edited by zed707 2007-07-05 3:46 PM
2007-07-05 10:18 PM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
Good perspectives and some nice links.  Thanks everyone for sharing your perspectives and info.  I love BT.  This is a one-of-a-kind place.


2007-07-05 10:33 PM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
Well, I'm kind of split on this issue.

After 12+ years as a competitive swimmer, I typically place much higher in the swim leg of my races than on the bike and run. A longer swim would benefit me more than it would my competitors. That said, I have the humbling experience of getting out of the water in the top 10% then watching everyone overtake me for the rest of the race - a bigger problem when I was a complete newbie on a 40lb bike - less of a problem now that at least I can fathom biking as fast as they are.

That said, swimming is 90% technique and that is best gained (by normal people) after YEARS of drills and many yards and a good coach. You can't just 'swim harder'. It is this difference imho that differentiates it the most from the biking and running. Plus, I'd hate to see a drowning during a 5mi swim leg! Hey, swimming is usually a sprinting sport - the longest US high school event is 500y, and in college it's the mile.

Then there are the .001% of the world's population who are inexplicably adept at swimming. They will swim faster than you and I with little training or practice. Perhaps this is also true to a point with running and biking, but I believe this to be an insurmountable difference in our innate biological abilities that skews the sport towards the very few elite.
2007-07-05 10:50 PM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

Shorter swim tris rock!

I want a short swim, really long bike, and medium run if I could design a race.

 

2007-07-06 12:02 AM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
I barely survived my first tri swim but frankly I love it now. its my 2nd favorite sport out of the 3 and when its really hot I would not mind the swim over the run.

Alot of people fear the swim and it is the most potential for danger. Problem is you can not get off the sie of the road and rest too well if your in trouble. You can not eat or hydrate too well. 10k swims you do it all but its different in a tri.

I would like the swim to be greater but its not practical. in a equaliter point of few I think Oly is the most balance and some of the spirints that are true 1/2 Olys. IM swim they give you like 2:15 and anything more and it could start to get dangerous.

Oh yeah

People do not give the swim enough credit for really exhausting people. my first tri I was super slow on everything else because I was so exhuasted. Swim is not about huge gains but being econaomical and saving energy. Tris are about who can stay in HR Z2 the longest.

Edited by chirunner134 2007-07-06 12:04 AM
2007-07-06 12:23 AM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

I'm probably showing my geekiness here, but here's a comparison between IM and HIM and Oly and Sprint (essentially a "1/2" Oly) using the swim distance as the base. Note that the Olys and Sprints are listed in kilometers. Olys and Sprints have proportionately longer swims than IMs and HIMs. If you wanted to make the Oly/Sprint swims proportional to the IM/HIM swims, an Oly would only have an 850 meter swim, with a corresponding 425 meter Sprint swim. I've seen a few Sprints with 500 meter swims. I'd be interested as to what the rationale was for the Oly distance. My guess is that they were looking for nice, round numbers in meters. 

 

2.411.21
11246.6666675646.666667
26.210.91666713.110.916667
1.510.751
4026.6666672026.666667
106.666666756.6666667

2007-07-06 1:04 AM
in reply to: #872281

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

MikeTheBear ... speaking of nice round numbers, go eeeasy on the sig figs you geekdude!

"Olympic" distance was decided by Jim Curl, director of the U.S. Triathlon Series, as 1.5K/40K/10K because of existing distances in the individual sports in the Olympics.

Just to be a thread hog ... while I am training for my first Oly, I was still wavering about the distance. This thread cemented my decision when you all pointed out and MikeTheBear proved how swim-heavy the Oly is.

In addition to being a hog ... I'm actually a duck. Everyone raves about Michael Phelps's armspan, how it's 3in longer than his height. Well, so is mine, and I'm 5' 4" to his 6' 4". My legs are disproportionately long, too, so I get some real leverage on kick. I have massive shoulders--even for a guy--but also the hip and upper thigh buoyancy of a girl, so I am perfectly set in the water. My feet: 9-9.5 6E (men's) => FLIPPERS. Hands like paddles, too. And finally ... water beads off of me.

No feathers, though. Yet. But I do love a good watercress sandwich.

 



Edited by TriAya 2007-07-06 1:04 AM


2007-07-06 7:52 AM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

Well, what about this option (as suggested by my husband) - Run, Bike THEN SWIM (as he puts it 'to cool off in the water')

I think if the swim was last, there'd be lots of folks struggling with fatigue, cramps, etc... making it unsafe. Thus, the swim goes first because it taxes the entire body more so than running, biking.

2007-07-06 7:59 AM
in reply to: #874104

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
BbMoozer - 2007-07-06 8:52 AM

Well, what about this option (as suggested by my husband) - Run, Bike THEN SWIM




Yeah, I don't think as many people would have been motivated by Julie Moss at that point.
2007-07-06 8:39 AM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
I would like to see longer swims, at least 800m. It's sort of irritating to just get wet in a short swim, then get chilled on the bike leg. Although I did remember to put some tissues on the bike before my last race. A little longer swim would make getting in the water seem to have more of a purpose.
2007-07-06 9:48 AM
in reply to: #874104

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
BbMoozer - 2007-07-06 5:52 AM

Well, what about this option (as suggested by my husband) - Run, Bike THEN SWIM (as he puts it 'to cool off in the water')

I think if the swim was last, there'd be lots of folks struggling with fatigue, cramps, etc... making it unsafe. Thus, the swim goes first because it taxes the entire body more so than running, biking.

Actually, "reverse" triathlons are fairly common in college leagues such as the West Coast Collegiate Triathlon Conference (WCCTC). When there is no other body of water to do the swim in, or the college tri team/club wants to host a race entirely on its own campus, they are resigned to do the swim in a pool. Putting the swim last, when the field has thinned out after the run and bike parts, allows for a less congested swim in such a confining venue. UCLA holds a WCCTC tri in March each year that has a 4 mile run, 10 mile bike and 400 meter swim. It finishes in an eight lane 50 meter pool. You enter the pool in one corner, swim down to the end of the lane, then move over to the next lane and swim back. After swimming down each lane of the pool you move over to the next lane. After eight laps, in eight lanes, you've done your 400 meters and you exit the pool at the steps and run to the finish a few yards away.

They have lots of lifeguards walking up and down the pool keeping an eye on everyone. This particular race is open to all-comers, so it's not just well trained, college-age triathletes, but a lot of age groupers, non-team students and faculty, plus lots of first-timers. So far, in 3 years there have been no rescues. This works OK on short sprint tri's, but may be much more risky if done in a longer tri. As it is, there is a lot of fatigue evident as some people make their way up and down the pool, switching over to breastroke or sidestroke as they struggle to finish the race.

I have a race report on the UCLA IronBruin Triathlon if you are interested in reading about my experience doing the tri backwards. As much as I would prefer longer swims in any triathlon, you find that no one complains about a short swim when it's last.

2007-07-06 1:56 PM
in reply to: #874191

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
vonschnapps - 2007-07-06 8:39 AM  Although I did remember to put some tissues on the bike before my last race.
Dang it! Now that would have worked better than my stuffing tissues into my tri shorts pockets during T1 only to have them get soaked from the water still logged in them.


2007-07-06 1:59 PM
in reply to: #874327

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

QUOTE- Actually, "reverse" triathlons are fairly common in college leagues such as the West Coast Collegiate Triathlon Conference (WCCTC).  As much as I would prefer longer swims in any triathlon, you find that no one complains about a short swim when it's last. END QUOTE

-----

I'd try one as a Sprint but honestly could never see myself pouring it in a swim for the last 100 yards as I could running as I boogie toward the finish line. Maybe a little hustle but I'd be gasping for air and flailing like a wild woman!



Edited by BbMoozer 2007-07-06 2:01 PM
2007-07-06 2:01 PM
in reply to: #874854

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

BbMoozer - 2007-07-06 12:56 PM
vonschnapps - 2007-07-06 8:39 AM  Although I did remember to put some tissues on the bike before my last race.
Dang it! Now that would have worked better than my stuffing tissues into my tri shorts pockets during T1 only to have them get soaked from the water still logged in them.

why not just blow snot rockets?

2007-07-06 2:02 PM
in reply to: #874867

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
ScottoNM - 2007-07-06 2:01 PM

BbMoozer - 2007-07-06 12:56 PM
vonschnapps - 2007-07-06 8:39 AM  Although I did remember to put some tissues on the bike before my last race.
Dang it! Now that would have worked better than my stuffing tissues into my tri shorts pockets during T1 only to have them get soaked from the water still logged in them.

why not just blow snot rockets?

Haaaaaa! I've been practicing but not quite ready for race day utilization. Don't want to hamper my fellow racers

2007-07-06 2:05 PM
in reply to: #874871

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
BbMoozer - 2007-07-06 1:02 PM
ScottoNM - 2007-07-06 2:01 PM

BbMoozer - 2007-07-06 12:56 PM
vonschnapps - 2007-07-06 8:39 AM  Although I did remember to put some tissues on the bike before my last race.
Dang it! Now that would have worked better than my stuffing tissues into my tri shorts pockets during T1 only to have them get soaked from the water still logged in them.

why not just blow snot rockets?

Haaaaaa! I've been practicing but not quite ready for race day utilization. Don't want to hamper my fellow racers

True - nothing new on race day!

Although I usually find that when I screw up the snot rocket it just gets all over me as a result. (so no real effect on those around me, except maybe amusement)

 



Edited by ScottoNM 2007-07-06 2:06 PM
2007-07-06 2:14 PM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
I'm all for the longer swim and really, really, really short run! If anyone wants to organize that one sign me up. By really, really, really short - I'm thinking a mile. That's enough for me! I would much rather swim it than run it! I know, I'm the minority here.


2007-07-06 2:19 PM
in reply to: #874896

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

grkingery - 2007-07-06 1:14 PM I'm all for the longer swim and really, really, really short run! If anyone wants to organize that one sign me up. By really, really, really short - I'm thinking a mile. That's enough for me! I would much rather swim it than run it! I know, I'm the minority here.

Check your local races for "aquabike" events. Really, really, really short run. Zero actually.

2007-07-06 2:36 PM
in reply to: #872281

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

Hey Daremo,

I won a Tri (first one) a few weeks ago and guess what...I was the first one out of the water. I was 5 th out of water overall.  (1st for women)  So, yes, some swimmers go on to win the whole thing. I am a strong swimmer (come from a swimming background)  and also a strong runner. I am working my butt off to build up my biking skills.  When I do tris, I get a lead in the swim, hold on or only loose a little in the bike and then catch back up in the run. Dont' knock us swimmers out of the game.  I am not goign to complain, the distances are what they are, but they are skewed. 

 

2007-07-07 9:55 AM
in reply to: #874876

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?
ScottoNM - 2007-07-06 3:05 PM

BbMoozer - 2007-07-06 1:02 PM
ScottoNM - 2007-07-06 2:01 PM

BbMoozer - 2007-07-06 12:56 PM
vonschnapps - 2007-07-06 8:39 AM  Although I did remember to put some tissues on the bike before my last race.
Dang it! Now that would have worked better than my stuffing tissues into my tri shorts pockets during T1 only to have them get soaked from the water still logged in them.

why not just blow snot rockets?

Haaaaaa! I've been practicing but not quite ready for race day utilization. Don't want to hamper my fellow racers

True - nothing new on race day!

Although I usually find that when I screw up the snot rocket it just gets all over me as a result. (so no real effect on those around me, except maybe amusement)

 



Yeah, my bike jerseys definitely need to go straight into the wash after long rides. Snot rocketeering is a very inexact science.
2007-07-07 10:20 AM
in reply to: #873450

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Subject: RE: Why is the swim leg so short?

My last two tri's had rough/whitecap swells during the swims, 2k and 1/3 mile lengths, at the time I wished they could have been shorter! Any race were the wetsuit can be worn is a good swim distanceWink.  My first two tri races were on the same 1/3 mile course.  First one with minimal training was~24 minutes, next one was ~17 minutes so it was plenty long enough for me at the time!!!  For the super swimmers were talking about ~7 minutes, I'm at 13 minutes these days.  I like longer swims though these days as I'm not fast but am steady.

The 1.2M/2k swim distance is for me a good workout.  I did a long course tri in April where the Swim was 2k, Bike 60k, and Run 15k. I really liked this race overall distance vs the HIM but that was probably due to being in better shape for it vs the HIM in Nov.



Edited by Donto 2007-07-07 10:21 AM
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