Endurance / Strength Training - Conflict?

out of personal experience, i put on 10lbs of muscle while training for my first oly.  to not lose muscle OR to gain it while endurance training, u must get the caloric intake necesary for your body to not catabolising your muscles...if u weight train, have a decent amount of protein/carbs..u should keep your existing muscle...tri training will only serve to 'lean u out'...if u lift hard, eat a lot, u should gain muscle...as long as the body has the necessary fuel, muscles will stay and grow and will not be used as an energy source.

A lot also depends on the kind of workouts your doing. If you are lifting just to tone, high reps low weight that is more or less just building the muscle fiber you have already. If you lift like a body builder high weight low reps, you are actually tearing down your muscles and then they build back denser with more muscle cells. And the more cells you have, the more calories you burn so you do have to concentrate a bit more on nutrition and the old saying, if you don’t use it you lose it is so very true! But it is easy to get it back once you have built up a good foundation. (Muscle memory) I have not lifted in about 3 years and it is coming back strong already only after 3 workouts. But then again I have never trained to be a triathlete before! I just wanted to pack on as much bulk as I could! But when body builders “cut” up for competitions it is all how you eat and work out. Tend to switch to more toning exercises and it was common to lose several pounds at that time, whether it was muscle or just water weight not sure, but after competitions the weight would just pack back on no problems..So I don’t think you ever really “lose” muscle. Jack. ;-)

I am going to go out on a limb that body builders would think I shouldn't stand on. Training for triathlon makes you strong. I read in a book called the Lore of Running that said weight training is of little benefit for cyclists because cycling makes you strong. For the best guys that little benefit is all they need. The rest of us are better off riding our bikes. I don't believe that there is much separation between cardio training and strength training. When you lift a heavy weight your heart does a really strong push and your blood pressure goes up as the blood quickly rushes to the working muscle. An effective cardio system makes you heart and muscles do this better. If you train for triathlon you get stronger without so called strenght training. If you weight train your heart gets stronger without doing cardio work. The systems have all been broken down and therorized over but to me you have one body and all the systems are so intertwined that you can't train one without the other. I have heard so many people say cycling doesn't give you bigger leg muscles they just look bigger because they are more defined. Meanwhile I have seen the same people's quads get huge and it is not just definition. Running makes the muscles more lean and long than weight training and cycling. It makes them strong though. Muscles can get up to 5 times stronger without getting any bigger. I therorize that this is due to the training of the heart or the cardio system as much as the training of the specific muscle. I know many athletes that say they don't lift weights because it is a waste of time. I agree with this. Specific tri training is best. Weight training is of only small benefit. It is good for maitaining strenght and even cardio fitness in the off season but I don't think putting a lot of energy into it is worthwhile. For actual strength, training for triathlon is probably better than weight training because those muscles are working hard for a long time and you heart will be trained to send a lot of blood to your muscles quickly.
It is just a theory but I really believe in it because I am a lot stronger than a lot of body builder type guys who have muscles twice the size of mine. Maybe it is just my ego that makes me stronger though. Training hills is the way to get strong not lifting weights.

It all depends on one thing ... protein intake.

If your body needs to break down protein to form carbohydrates (again that fancy term ... gluconeogenesis ... I love typing that) it will get it from one of 2 sources [1] ingested protein, or [2] breakdown muscle into amino acids (i.e., basic structure of protein).

So, by eating protein you spare your muscle from being "eaten" or "burned" (i.e. broken down) by your body.

When bodybuilders "cut up" or try and get down to 4-6% BF, they reduce calories. They definately do not decrease protein (and may even increase it), they don't get rid of fat or your body will start to burn fat from other areas ... like fat surrounding organs or fat surrounding nerve cells (myelin sheath), so they get rid of carbohydrates and realise if the body desperately needs energy it will [1] burn fat for fuel, or [2] make a few carbs from ingest (eaten) protein.

If you care anything about muscle, protein is your friend. I'm a steak man. I also use protein powder (Myoplex, ProLab Whey, etc).
www.proteinfactory.com is a good source, you can mix your "fast" (whey) and "slow" (egg, etc) digesting proteins so you get a continuous stream of protein which aids muscle growth, recovery and repair.

Edited by TripleThreat 2004-01-24 3:46 PM

I second the protein! And Owie, if your only concern is tri's then what you are saying is correct. I weight train for a couple of other reasons: vanity (I've put a little muscle on over the years and don't want to lose it all, and getting older (almost 39). As you get older, weight training helps prevent the natural muscle loss as well as bone density. With that, I am currently not doing any weight training for legs because they are big enough and already get plenty of work. I do weights after two of my swim workouts. I may have to change this as I get to point where can swim longer though. This limits my trips to gym and the swim gets my nice and loose before workout.

Also, your body can only recover so much. Trying to build a lot of mass and all your tri training at same time is a big protential for over training! Try working the weights in slowly and watch your protein intake. I have 6 meals a day and shoot for 30g of protein per meal whcih gives me a little less than 1g per lb of body weight.

Thanks for all the good input. So far things are going okay I think. The tri training came after weight loss and a few months in cardio and weight training. Was doing four days of weight training. Now transitioning to more spin, run and adding the swim (TI weekend feb 7-8. I'm trying shorter weight sessions and targeting muscle groups (upper and lower for the skinny legs) - doing heavier and mroe sets. So I'm doing 5 or 6 15 - 20 min sessions in a week. If you know that "good" soreness you get from a nice pump - I do get that from these mini sessions. It seems to help in a pretty busy schedule.

I am doing the pre and post workout carb/protein a couple hrs pre and protein smoothie (with bananna and 1tbs peanut butter) post workout. Thanks to all again - please come back with any other thoughts.

This site rocks ay?

I've found that strength training that is specific to the triathlon events is helpful. By that I mean doing things like step ups and squats for the legs, bent arm lat pull downs, seated rows for the arms / back, etc. The step ups and squats help for biking - they essentially work the muscles like you do when you ride the bike. Building strength in those muscles should help your cycling to improve. Same with the upper body stuff - it should help your swim.

Doing the exercises should mimic the movement you make in doing each specific sport - so squats for instance should be done with your feet about as far apart as they would be on your pedals.

Doing the weights to build strength is what you are really trying to do. When you do strength training, you can stretch the muscles between sets and that will help keep you from bulking up.

Joel Friel in the Triathletes Training Bible does recommend doing strength training, but making it sport specific and tailoring what you are doing to where you are in your training cycle. In the 'off' time of the year, you may want to do more base building, then try to really add strength, then get into a maintenance mode as you get more into the race season.

I would suggest trying to stay sport specific with training. Keep a focus on nutrition as well and you shouldn't be building muscle just to consume it in your endurance training.

T