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2007-08-02 2:12 PM

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Regular
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Manassas, VA
Subject: HR Training and Cardiac Drift

I'm having an issue with my long runs, which are now about 90 min long.  I'm relatively slow, so this is just under 9mi for me when I keep it in zone 2 (145-158).  My LT is 180-ish and my max hr is close to 200.  (proves that 220-age=meaningless, since I'm 34).

What generally happens is this: I start out with sub 9min miles for a while, but by the end I'm barely making 12's due to cardiac drift.  I don't feel like I'm growing much more fatigued, just that it's harder to keep the hr down without slowing. 

Is this correct?  Should I start slower, and hope to finish a little faster?  My goal on the lsd run is just to add base and build aerobic endurance as much as possible.

Thanks to all!



2007-08-02 2:22 PM
in reply to: #911359

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Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift
Are you getting enough fluids when your doing your long run. I know my heart rate starts to get a lot higher than it should if I don't stay hydrated during long workouts. Just an observation no evidence to back it up.
2007-08-02 3:45 PM
in reply to: #911359

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Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift

I think you should also consider RPE and how are you feeling. Is the effort level say at 30 minutes similar to that of 75 minutes?

It is always better to start out slow and speed up compared to going the other way around.

I used to be a slave to my HRM; now I glance at it but go more by how I feel which is how I race.

As someone else pointed out it could be that you are getting dehydrated and having cardiac  drift. 

2007-08-02 3:57 PM
in reply to: #911359

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Frisco, Texas
Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift

What weather conditions are you running in?  When it's hot my HR drifts up significantly.  It's better to start slower and finish faster.  That's what you'll do in a race, right?

I've switched to using pace zones instead of HR training zones.  I find planning training runs at a certain pace is easier and more effective than running in a certain HR zone.  There are several calculators on the web for calculating pace zones based on race performances.

Here's one:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/rununiv/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

TJ

 

2007-08-02 4:24 PM
in reply to: #911359

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Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift
Same thing happens to me at all distances and intensities. I just chalk it up to a necessary evil while building base.
2007-08-02 6:20 PM
in reply to: #911359

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Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift
Same here - I have decided, like KathyG to disregard (for the most part) my HR monitor. RPE is much more effective for me toward the end of a long run. If I went solely by my HR and zones, I would be at 12:00 miles (and have been) near the end every time. I've found (for me - I'm slow) that 10:00 is a good pace even for 10 miles. If I watch my HR during that, it will start out where I want it to be, then drift to the high end of zone 3 - low zone 4, but I'm feeling great and not fatigued.

I guess it is good to know about yourself, but take HR training with a grain of salt IMHO. Everyone's different and there is likely no ONE perfect way to train.


2007-08-02 6:42 PM
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2007-08-03 5:29 AM
in reply to: #911359

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Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift
Since the summer heat & humidity have kicked in here, I've had the same problem. It doesn't happen at cooler temperatures. Drinking a LOT more water and taking electrolytes has helped tremendously. I should probably take everyone's advice and not always pay so much attention to the HRM anyway.

Edit: As the A race approaches, and it is going to be hilly and likely quite hot, I've been trying to train in those conditions, which often pushes me out of the zone, but you've got to be ready for race day.

Edited by monkeyboy64 2007-08-03 5:31 AM
2007-08-03 7:36 AM
in reply to: #911359

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Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift
Like others have suggested, train by pace/RPE for awhile. I have not found HR training very useful.

Another thing to consider is that at some point slowing down does not cause a reduction in HR, you have to walk. There is only so slow you can go, for me that is around 10min/mi and I am not fast.

2007-08-03 9:20 AM
in reply to: #911803

Regular
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Manassas, VA
Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift

Thanks for all of the advice.  I'm definitely not feeling wiped out at the end, so RPE is pretty level, just the HR climb.  I'll work more on hydration and heat.  I've been a slave to the hr monitor ever since I got it.  I think I'll use it more as a guide on the long runs and go somewhat more by RPE.  Joel Friel's book is on my list. 

 I would definitly either blow out or not work out intensly enough on my short training runs without a hr monitor.  I just don't have the experience in endurance to know when I'm going just under or just over my LT.  I'm much better at lower thresholds.

Overall, triathlon has helped my endurance immensely.  After March of this year, I set a new personal distance record on every long run.  My goal this year was to do a sprint and not walk at the end.  Now I'm more long range focused, trying to improve run times and tackle longer distances.  The long run is my foundation session for improving my base until I can free up more time for longer bikes.  I need to get it right

ps

I love BT!

2007-08-03 9:44 AM
in reply to: #911359

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Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift

Cardiac drift is a sign of lack of endurance.  Everyone gets it.  When you start to drift depends on how big of a base you have built. 

RPE training is a whole lot funner than HR training.  HR training is hard because you are going so dang slow at first.  It really sucks to watch old ladies with walkers pass you.  A lot of people do not stick with it long enough to see any real payoff. 

Last year I spent over 12 weeks training below 145bpm.  That's not training at 145, that's below 145.  Lots of runs and rides with low 130 averages.  Every few weeks I would test myself by running 5 miles at 140 bpm.  For the first 6 weeks I did not see any improvement, but at the end of it all my 5 mile average pace went from around 9:30 to sub 8.  For me, getting down to sub 8 zone 1 running was worth the pain of training slow.       



2007-08-03 9:59 AM
in reply to: #912227

Regular
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Manassas, VA
Subject: RE: HR Training and Cardiac Drift

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head.  When "running" up hills, everybody's passing me.  I just tell myself that slow and steady is the point of that session. 

I used to notice the drift much earlier, like 30min.  Now it's not appreciable until after an hour.  Same with joint pain.  I used to get knee pain after 45min (torn cartiledge from skiing).  Now I rarely get it, and it's closer to the 90-min mark.

By the way, 8min zone 1 pace seems awesome to me.  I was extatic a few weeks ago when my short/fast run went sub-8 average for 5k with intervals.  For me, that was haulin' a$$.

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