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Hilly HIM next spring - which bike??
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 2007-09-26 11:14 AM |
Pro  4353    Wallingford, PA |  Subject: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike??With my race season winding down (last tri this weekend!) I'm beginning to make plans for next season. I'd like to step up to HIM distance next year, and have my eye on the Black Bear HIM in PA. The bike course is supposedly pretty hilly, which leaves me wondering which bike would be better to train/race on - my road bike or my tri bike? Here's what I'm riding: Road bike is a Specialized Dolce, Al frame, 105 components, triple crank. Tri bike is a QR Seduza, carbon frame, ultegra/dura-ace components, double crank. At the moment, I end up mashing if I'm doing very long or steep climbs on the tri bike, whereas with the triple crank on the road bike, I can spin up pretty much all but the steepest hills in our area. I know I need much more T.I.T.S., especially riding hills, before Black Bear next season. Does anyone care to chime in on which bike would be better to train and race on for a hilly course? Assuming a tri bike would leave me fresher for the run, I was thinking my bike training approach might go something like this: Plan on increasing mileage on both bikes - doing longer flat rides on the tri bike, longer hill rides on the road bike, and intermediate distance hill rides on the tri bike as I build my base early in the off season. As I get stronger on the hills, I can increase the distance of my hill rides on the tri bike, and hopefully be riding the tri bike almost exclusively as I get closer to the race (maybe riding the road bike occasionally for recovery rides?). I'm also wondering if maybe I should look into getting a compact crank for the tri bike, but I am woefully ignorant about them, so if anyone would care to educate me - please do!! Thanks for your help! |
| 2007-09-26 11:35 AM in reply to: #979806 |
Not a Coach 11473  Media, PA | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? If you can ride the tri bike staying comfortably aero, then that's probably the way to go. But not necessarily because it may leave you fresher for the run (it may and many people believe this is true, but I'm less certain it makes much difference). It's simply because this will be faster. Now if you can't stay aero for 56 miles (excluding some hills where it may not matter), then ride the bike that you're most comfortable on. As far as training, ride whichever bike will allow you to enjoy the ride you are doing and keep you out riding more. As the race nears, then get most of your time on the one you will race. Riding hills won't hurt, but most important is just to get the T.I.T.S. If you have to "mash" up hills, then you need "more gears". You can swap the cassette (adding gears with more teeth) and/or get compact cranks (adding rings with fewer teeth). You could get a triple as well, though that's a more expensive option and probably unnecessary. |
| 2007-09-26 11:39 AM in reply to: #979806 |
Extreme Veteran 707 pnw | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? I went through the same delima for a local race. First time I did it I used my tri bike with a standard crank and a 11/23 having no idea just how hilly the bike course really was. The ride hurt physically and my legs were dead on the run. Two years later I wanted to do the same race again after many miles and lots of hills on both a road and tri bike under me. I was able to actually train on that course and road it several times on both bikes. The Tri bike to my surprise alway beat the road bike times. On this particular race I used a compact crank and a 12/25 cassette on the tri bike. Used a similar set up on the road bike. Ended up using the same set up on another race which was rolling with no major hills because I could stay in the large chain ring the entire course. Ended up in the top 10% on bike splits for that one. One of my best rides ever. My take is always, always, ride the tri bike when you can. Just make sure you have the appropriate gearing for the course. I'd also check the fit on the Tri bike carefully to make sure you can stand if required and not have your knees smack your arm supports. Here is the skinny on compacts: http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/gearing.html |
| 2007-09-26 1:38 PM in reply to: #979806 |
| Member 391 Wenonah, NJ | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? I've probably rode the Black Bear course more than anyone, on both my tri and road bike, and on a non windy day I prefer my road bike (although it's close)...on a windy day I would probably want the tri bike. Gearing is more of an issue. I've done it with both 12/23 and 12/25's and the 25's were much appreciated. I don't think it's triple chain ring worthy although once or twice you might wish you had something lower to drop into. In addition to time in the saddle I've found it very helpful to ride the course as often as possible. The first time I rode Black Bear it was a BEAR!!! (pun intended)...the second time a little less...and so on...I was up for a meeting a few weeks ago and afterwards just decided on a whim to go for a loop and at the end though, "wow, that wasn't bad at all"! I'm going up a few times so if you're interested let me know and I'll keep you updated. |
| 2007-09-26 2:10 PM in reply to: #979806 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? Wow! Never expected to hear from the RD herself when I posted this question - thanks for the response! I would love to go up some time, schedule permitting, as long as you promise not to drop me (I suspect you're probably a leeeeetle faster than me....)! |
| 2007-09-26 2:22 PM in reply to: #980157 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? jsnowash - 2007-09-26 2:10 PM Wow! Never expected to hear from the RD herself when I posted this question - thanks for the response! I would love to go up some time, schedule permitting, as long as you promise not to drop me (I suspect you're probably a leeeeetle faster than me....)! I've never met Larry, but I think he's a man. |
| 2007-09-26 2:39 PM in reply to: #979806 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? oops.... sorry, I thought it was Michele.... |
| 2007-09-26 2:50 PM in reply to: #980183 |
| Member 391 Wenonah, NJ | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? JohnnyKay - 2007-09-26 3:22 PM I've never met Larry, but I think he's a man. I'm inclined to agree with you on this one  |
| 2007-09-26 2:53 PM in reply to: #980157 |
| Member 391 Wenonah, NJ | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? jsnowash - 2007-09-26 3:10 PM I would love to go up some time, schedule permitting, as long as you promise not to drop me (I suspect you're probably a leeeeetle faster than me....)! Don't bet on it! |
| 2007-09-26 2:54 PM in reply to: #980092 |
| Champion 6539 South Jersey | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? lredrow - 2007-09-26 2:38 PM I've probably rode the Black Bear course more than anyone, on both my tri and road bike, and on a non windy day I prefer my road bike (although it's close)...on a windy day I would probably want the tri bike. Gearing is more of an issue. I've done it with both 12/23 and 12/25's and the 25's were much appreciated. I don't think it's triple chain ring worthy although once or twice you might wish you had something lower to drop into. In addition to time in the saddle I've found it very helpful to ride the course as often as possible. The first time I rode Black Bear it was a BEAR!!! (pun intended)...the second time a little less...and so on...I was up for a meeting a few weeks ago and afterwards just decided on a whim to go for a loop and at the end though, "wow, that wasn't bad at all"! I'm going up a few times so if you're interested let me know and I'll keep you updated. I hope to get up there a few times too. I'll be making the switch from road to tri bike for this upcoming season...I hope I don't regret it
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.| 2007-09-26 3:50 PM in reply to: #980255 |
| Member 391 Wenonah, NJ | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? LaurenSU02 - 2007-09-26 3:54 PM I hope to get up there a few times too. I'll be making the switch from road to tri bike for this upcoming season...I hope I don't regret it
I doubt you'll have any regrets about switching to a tri bike. It's just that the Black Bear course is one of those couses that minimizes the benefits the tri bike provides. Of course, you're a better biker than me so maybe you'll prefer the tri bike...if nothing else you'll look cool on it! |
| 2007-09-30 8:26 AM in reply to: #979806 |
| Regular 73 Lehigh Valley, Pa. | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? I did the Sprint this year with a P3 and wished I had my road bike or different cassette (11-23). I mashed the hills and killed my quads. Yes more riding would help but next year I may bring a road bike with aerobars. I live close to the course and will probably do some rides early next spring. Would love to come along if possible. |
| 2007-09-30 1:07 PM in reply to: #979806 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? IMO, unless you are doing a point to point uphill bike leg, you will be better served on your tribike assuming that you well fit and adapted to your position on the tribike. I believe that many athletes struggle with climbing on a tribike not because climbing on a tribike is harder, but because the gearing on most tribikes does not reflect the abilities of most triathletes. Many tribikes come with a 53/39 chainring configuration and 11-23 cassette. If you run the numbers you will see that for the big ring, this gives two gears that are over 30mph (at 90rpm) and only three under 20mph (one being 19.6mph). Also, the tightest groupings on the cassette (one tooth jumps) are between 21.9-33.9mph and realistically, unless they are riding downhill, most triathletes aren't pushing these kind of gears. So you can look at either your cassette or chainrings to change gearing - compact cranks are one of the most common ways to go which allows you to use a cassette like an 11-23 or even 11-21 and you give up only a little top end. The other option is to switch cassettes - look at what is on your road bike for an idea of what size cassette you might want. As far as training, for now I would just ride - just get time in the saddle; long, short, flat, hills, fast, slow - just get out and ride. Once you move into race specific training, race specific rides, then I would say you would be best served by long rides in the aerobars so you can go 56miles in the aeroposition and hilly rides (stay in the aerobars as long as possible and spin up the hills) to get ready for race day. Shane |
| 2007-09-30 2:09 PM in reply to: #979806 |
Extreme Veteran 707 pnw | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? I was a little surprised when the Race Director said the course negates much of the advantage of a tri bike. Found that hard to understand so I looked the race up. http://www.cgievents.com/cgiracing/bbt/course.html The climbing profiles for the sprint and 1/2 are both listed there. Nothing big on the hills just losts of them. Prefect place for a tri bike and aero bars with the right gearing. But Black Bear looks a little "different". If you look at the ride clue sheets the advantage of a road bike becomes obvious. Lots and lots of right and left hand turns on these courses with not much straight road if I am reading it right. Most will be out of the aero bars for that much bike handling. In that case a road bike would be little disadvantage and depending on road/surface and weather conditions a road bike might well be a big advanatage. If there are that many turns a road bike would be a distinct advantage to anyone unused to the difference in handling (read poor handling) of a tri bike. I'll still stick to my first comment that in the vast majority of Tris you'd be better served with a tri bike....they are faster uphill and down hill. The one place they are at a disadvantage is on a really tight and technical course. Black Bear seems to fit that description by the clue sheets. We have two local sprints with much more climbing (longer and steeper with more elev. gain) but a tri bike is easy to take advantage of on the long straights before and after the hills and will always be the faster choice on those courses. |
| 2007-09-30 2:57 PM in reply to: #979806 |
Extreme Veteran 707 pnw | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? Of course all of the above that was just pure speculation written from 3000 miles away and never having been on the course :D |
| 2007-10-01 3:40 PM in reply to: #984458 |
| Member 391 Wenonah, NJ | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? |
| 2007-10-01 3:58 PM in reply to: #984458 |
| Member 391 Wenonah, NJ | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? Nob - 2007-09-30 3:09 PM I was a little surprised when the Race Director said the course negates much of the advantage of a tri bike. Nothing really surprising about it ...just my personal preference after having done the course numerous times on both my tri bike and on my road bike. My reasons are based on the constant up and down of the course. I'm out of the aerobars on a lot of the ups and, call me a wuss, but I'm not a big fan of 50mph in the aerobars (more YIKES than WHEEEE for me), so I am out of them from time to time on the descents. This is just my two cents. I will tell you that most of the top finishers had their tri bikes so obviously better biking minds (and legs) then mine would agree with you in choosing the tri bike. As for the cue sheets, well, cue sheets have a way of making things sound much more complicated then they really are... sort of like microwave popcorn with ten step directions! Several of the commands in the cue sheet are "bear right", "bear left", or this road becomes that road...which aren't turns at all...but for someone who is riding the course they are relevant. Another is a four or five step process at a turnaround. It's not a very technical course from that perspective. |
| 2007-10-01 6:17 PM in reply to: #984458 |
Veteran 197 Newport, RI | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? Nob - 2007-09-30 3:09 PM The one place they are at a disadvantage is on a really tight and technical course. Black Bear seems to fit that description by the clue sheets. I didn't find it technical or tight at all (just damn hilly). Still rode the tri bike though (have to justify the $3K at every opportunity). |
| 2007-10-01 6:24 PM in reply to: #979806 |
Extreme Veteran 707 pnw | Subject: RE: Hilly HIM next spring - which bike?? See that is what happens when you go off the web site Thanks for the comments and real world experience. |
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